Solar Warden

Originally posted by torbjon
so, um, stealth technology is 100% visible to ground based radar and all of our stealth bombers and fighters are getting shot down left and right.... hmmmm. okay. I'll buy that.

There's a vast difference between a black paint job and stealth technology. For example, the SR-71 was painted black, but was plainly visible on radar. Not all F-177s are painted black, and they're still not visible on radar. So no, a black paint job would do nothing to hide anything, expect just make it harder to see visually.

(As I got further down I saw that jra had beaten me to that. Nice job )

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you have access to every telescope on the face of the planet... um, doesn't that mean that there's still 50% of the moon that you aren't seeing?

Sadly, I don't have access to every telescope on the face of the planet, but I do have access to a 10 inch apochromatic refractor, an 18.5 inch Dobsonian, a 16 inch Dobsonian, a 14 inch Schmidt-Cassegrain, a 12 inch Schmidt-Cassegrain, and several smaller Dobs in the 10-6 inch range. The perks of owning some of your own telescopes and having access to a university observatory, I suppose.

And yes, I cannot see the far side of the Moon, but it's more like 46% of it that I can't see. That's due to the effects of lunation, though.

wow, that is sooooooo out of context. I believe I was addressing the issue of there being a lack of air and water on the moon and outlining some possible scenarios of getting some there

Ah, my misunderstanding. From the way it sounded to me it was that you were saying there is air and water on the Moon.

so these other 'worldly nations' are in your back pocket and let you in on all their little secrets, ey? what else do they tell you? If they are keeping their super secret plans to take over the world a secret from you, why not keep their super secret space fleet a secret from you too?

The point is that this is the United States space fleet we're supposedly talking about here. If such a thing existed, why would they let China, Russia, or any other country know about it? They wouldn't... So don't you think that when these other countries spotted some giant spaceship being run by the Americans, they would come out and say "Look at what your country has been doing behind your back!" or something similar?

Yep. L2.

Sure, that might take care of the visual aspect of it, but not the radar, now would it? Nice try, though.

Besides, wouldn't those same foreign governments notice supply ships and whatnot being sent off to the Lagrangian points and think something is up? And which of the L2 points would it be? The one corressponding with the Sun/Earth system or the one with the Earth/Moon system? Again, the logistics behind something like this lead to it's downfall...

And if the L points of the Sun, at L2 wouldn't the hand full of spaceborn observatories that are parked there be a hazard? If you were to go with L1, well, you run into the same problem. L4/5 could br a problem with all those pesky asteroids. I guess that would leave you with L3, but what purpose would that serve all the way out there?

Originally posted by vorlance
The relevance is painfully obvious. Get with it man!

Maybe to you, but not to the rest of us. Since we can't all read your mind, despite that fact that a few may think they can, could you please explain it? Thank you.

[edit on 6/29/2006 by cmdrkeenkid]

not goin' anywhere near that quote button ever again *grins*

jra wrote on 28-6-2006 at 02:12 PM (post id: 2306660)


"...but all we could do is speculate and that gets us nowhere really."

WOW, really?? Speculation gets us Nowhere?? Heavy.

You do know that the title of this forum is:

ATS Skunk Works
Speculative Conspiracy Theory Discussion and Collaboration.

And that in Skeptic Overlords introduction to this forum he states:

“This is a new initiative kicked off by this Skunk Works forum to have a dedicated place for ATS members to engage in speculative conspiracy theory discussions of all topics, angles, and targets.”

So, as I read alla that MY pinheaded impression is that this IS the place to engage in Friendly Speculation about Anything no matter how whacked out said speculation may be…

but hey, if you think speculation doesn’t lead to the possibility of building a better mouse trap, more power to you.

I’m going to continue to engage in Friendly Speculation on Possibilities instead of spending my R&R time firmly grounded in the dogma of concrete reality ‘cause I do that All the time and Skunk Works is supposed to FUN.

Are we having Fun yet? I’m having fun. Tell me you’re having fun too… this is supposed to be Friendly, people.

now off to play with the commander

rock on
twj

Originally posted by torbjon
So, as I read alla that MY pinheaded impression is that this IS the place to engage in Friendly Speculation about Anything no matter how whacked out said speculation may be…

Some of us just enjoy to speculate that these other ideas are just pure rubbish. Is there anything wrong with that?

If I wanted to go and play along and say that aliens are out there, we have a secret space fleet, and blah blah blah I easily could. But since when has anything ever been learned by taking the easy path?

Originally posted by cmdrkeenkid

Originally posted by torbjon
So, as I read alla that MY pinheaded impression is that this IS the place to engage in Friendly Speculation about Anything no matter how whacked out said speculation may be…

Some of us just enjoy to speculate that these other ideas are just pure rubbish. Is there anything wrong with that?

If I wanted to go and play along and say that aliens are out there, we have a secret space fleet, and blah blah blah I easily could. But since when has anything ever been learned by taking the easy path?

Keep up your critical points. Someone should! I got one... you're actually a paid gov't disinfo agent. JK

So, to at long lost answer your querie about the pics I posted links to...

All I did was Google "Space Navy". Bingo!

Sorry to let you down without giving a more esoteric reading on it. Never fear, I'm working up to it...

Originally posted by vorlanceWhen did I even make a peep about those pics being the real thing?

Hey vorlance, busy again, eh?

I took a look at those pictures. Suspending disbelief for a minute, my veteran starship design skills kicked in.

In the inertial drive, it looks like a NIPD. The fuselage would need to be modified to incurr minimum drag coefficient fore and maximum aft. Strategic deterrent mass projectors need to be aligned w/axis of travel pointing aft, lasers used to the side and fore only. Or else run into your own bullets and deal with navigation nightmares!

Are the ships using a z-pinch for power? If so it could double for propulsion as with the bombships. The wedge would be most ideal then. These look like solar system only. There is no fore shield to protect against radiation and micrometorites at relativistic speeds, like a chunk of ice would.

Well, that is what I think. As for raising the awareness of what mankind is capable of, I wholeheartedly support that! I once had a friend that hacked 29 Palms in '86, but he had to still go through eight levels of encryption. And all that just to uncover a game. Pretty doubtful that this bloke achieved success (alone) at today's security standards!

Hey commander, thanks for tagging me back… um, I’m not gonna play with the quote button because I’m too pinheaded to use it right and I just got slapped on the wrist for my last reply to you, but your post is right up there (points to the top of the page) and I think (hope) we’re all clever enough to follow what’s going on

I see you and jra and some others having a problem with the ‘flat black paintjob’ thing… C’mon people, let’s get out of the box and on the ball. Your viewing the ‘excess heat’ as a Problem and not a Solution.

YES, a flat black paint job would suck up a bunch of infrared radiation and then you’re Stopping.

Why stop? Why even consider it to be problem? How ‘bout we consider it to be an Asset?

FREE ENERGY. Channel that heat energy into a heat sump and utilize it. I just googled ‘heat sump’ and this was the first link that came up… pretty cool, ya?

test.throneworld.com...

Instead of simply storing the energy (like that article describes) convert it. Turn it into mechanical energy or something.

No problem is insurmountable. If we can’t overcome every obstacle then what’s the point of even Trying, might as well curl up and die right now.
…
hey, those are some Nice Scopes. Too cool, lucky you (I’m more than a little green with envy) I’ve never owned anything as slick as those… I had to build my own *sighs* Best one I ever made was a 10 inch… spent a month of Sundays polishing that mirror, used an old sonotube for the housing, the base was a hunk of three inch pipe wielded to an old tire rim, and that was wielded to a slab of steel plate… Talk About Heavy!

Of course, I got hooked on lookin’ through the thing and, like anybody who spends quality time with a scope, I Wanted More *grins* so I tried to build a 12 inch but I messed up the mirror…

that was 25 years ago.

I only used refractors in Alaska but that was enough for fun… man, if you Ever get the chance, go to nowhere Alaska for a winter or two, Do It. Talk about drop dead gorgeous, no light pollution, no heat pollution, crystal clear stars all the way to horizon and hours and hours and hours of DARK *dreamy* I don’t miss the weather but I sure do miss the view

okay, so, only 46% of the moon is outside your field of view, that’s still a Lot, don’tcha think?
…
the foreign governments spilling the beans thing… I don’t know much about the politics of the world… I know that the media tells me things and claims them to be true, but beyond that I’m not so sure.

Perhaps there are organizations that we are not aware of that are controlling the organizations that we Are aware of.

Far fetched, outlandish, pinheaded psycho babble, I know, but it doesn’t seem to me to be outside the realms of Possibility.

…
ground based radar… what is this ground based radar Doing, anyway? I mean, are they even Looking into deep space with it? CAN they look into deep space with it? Is it any good past low earth orbit? Can it be jammed? And if the people who have access to that type of equipment ever saw anything, would they tell us, or their boss? And, if the operator of said equipment came to ATS and told us that he did indeed see something, but his Boss went to the media and told them to tell the world that that particular bozo was “high on drugs at the time he made that observation” who is going to believe what?…

Lagrangian points…

um, I’m not sure we’re on the same page with that one… every binary orbital system has Lagrangian points, Sun/Earth, Earth/Moon, Sun/Jupiter, Jupiter/Io, etc. I picked the Earth/Moon L2 point simply because the orbital relationship between Earth/Moon would keep that L2 forever hidden from our view and it’s close by.

Honestly, if I were going to stash a high tech space armada in our solar system, I personally wouldn’t put it anywhere Near the Earth… somewhere out past Jupiter or in Earth orbit but 180 degrees out of synch with us (ie on the other side of the sun) something like that. I just picked L2 out of the blue so the fleet would be Really Close to home, tha’s all *shrugs*

Re-supply…

Ya, well, I’m under the Firm Conviction that for any large group of people to survive in space it would have to be a Self Sufficient Colony (be it land based or space based) Too many things can go wrong if you have to rely solely upon the Earth for your food, water, an air.

Initial launches of personnel and equipment Could have been detected, but whether or not they Would have been detected or that said detections Would have been reported to the general public by Any government or agency Anywhere is another story.

I’m just not convinced that the various World powers that be truly have MY best interests at heart, ya know? I think they keep secrets. I think they keep secrets from each other and from us. Perhaps the other World Powers aren’t spilling the beans about OUR super secret space fleet is because they know we’ll spill the beans about Their super secret space fleet *shrugs* I dunno.

People, I was born before Star Trek hit the airwaves. I remember Vividly Cal Poly students on a fast track to JPL, complete with their nerdy glasses, pocket protectors and slide rules laughing hysterically at that show and shouting “IMPOSSIBLE, It CAN’T be done”

A generation of kids grew up watching that show and they said “COOL, I WANT ONE TOO!” and then went out and made the stuff.

My wife has a flip phone that is ten times better than Captain Kirks communicator. I got a hand held computer that blows the doors of anything Mr. Spock ever played with. My daughters life was saved by medical telemetry and non invasive surgery every bit as far out as Dr. McCoy’s sick bay.

You’re telling me that a super secret space fleet is “Impossible, it Can’t be done” My life experiences tell me that that type of thinking is in error.

Maybe we Don’t have a super secret space fleet yet…. my kid is only two years old now, how ‘bout we give her a chance, ey? Because, I tell you, in all sincerity, I Want A Super Secret Space Fleet! *grins*

“Some men see things as they are and say, why?
But, I dream of things that never were and say, why not?”
-Robert Kennedy-

rock on
twj

cmdrkeenkid wrote on 29-6-2006 at 07:37 AM

"Some of us just enjoy to speculate that these other ideas are just pure rubbish. Is there anything wrong with that?

If I wanted to go and play along and say that aliens are out there, we have a secret space fleet, and blah blah blah I easily could. But since when has anything ever been learned by taking the easy path?"

huh? No, far from it comrade, if you're having fun, COOL! (I'm having fun too)

But I'm not so certain I would call speculation the ‘easy path’ It’s hard to speculate. It takes imagination and insight and quantum leaps of intuition… it’s definitely not for the weak of mind, that’s for sure.

Speculation is the foundation of our science. The greatest scientists of any era were also the greatest speculators.

Without speculation, you and I would not be having this conversation via the internet (and all the hardware, software and support systems that entails.)

Speculation is one of the things that helps to set us apart from the other life forms on this planet.

Speculation is not a dirty word…

CAN’T, on the other hand, is, in my admittedly limited opinion, the filthiest word /concept on the face of the planet.

This is all pure speculation of course *grins*

catch ya on the flip side.

twj

Originally posted by zorgon

If he was stoned and found nothing of value, why bust him so hard? Just a thought

Hacking, Trojans, viruses and the like cost businesses billions of dollars annually. Not just huge corporations either. If I get shut down by a Trojan or a Hacker hitting random systems it can cost me a month’s income out of my pocket before it is over. These are not victimless crimes and it is no small deal. Innocent people are hurt. When they get into a government computer like the FBI it could hinder investigations. What if it caused someone who murdered one of your family members to get away because the system was needed and was down for a few hours? How do you put a price on that? Harsh penalties are absolutely necessary to make people think twice before engaging in this type of crime. If everyone knew that the punishment was a slap on the wrists it would cause chaos.

OP – I was not referring to you. I could care less if half the world got stoned every day. Maybe they would stop fighting so much.

I think it is a mistake to give credibility to someone who commits cyber-crimes just for the fun of it without regard as to any harm he may cause. I think most of these people do this for attention. I think this story is just another cry in the dark for attention. It seems that these folks are always people still living with their parents into their mid twenties and do this stuff out of boredom when they should be out getting a job or using their skills productively.

Originally posted by Matyas

Originally posted by vorlanceWhen did I even make a peep about those pics being the real thing?

Hey vorlance, busy again, eh?

I took a look at those pictures. Suspending disbelief for a minute, my veteran starship design skills kicked in.

In the inertial drive, it looks like a NIPD. The fuselage would need to be modified to incurr minimum drag coefficient fore and maximum aft. Strategic deterrent mass projectors need to be aligned w/axis of travel pointing aft, lasers used to the side and fore only. Or else run into your own bullets and deal with navigation nightmares!

Are the ships using a z-pinch for power? If so it could double for propulsion as with the bombships. The wedge would be most ideal then. These look like solar system only. There is no fore shield to protect against radiation and micrometorites at relativistic speeds, like a chunk of ice would.

Well, that is what I think. As for raising the awareness of what mankind is capable of, I wholeheartedly support that!

I once had a friend that hacked 29 Palms in '86, but he had to still go through eight levels of encryption. And all that just to uncover a game. Pretty doubtful that this bloke achieved success (alone) at today's security standards!

Keep on trotting those designs out! We can build a better mouse trap!!

Originally posted by torbjon
cmdrkeenkid wrote on 29-6-2006 at 07:37 AM

"Some of us just enjoy to speculate that these other ideas are just pure rubbish. Is there anything wrong with that?

If I wanted to go and play along and say that aliens are out there, we have a secret space fleet, and blah blah blah I easily could. But since when has anything ever been learned by taking the easy path?"

huh? No, far from it comrade, if you're having fun, COOL! (I'm having fun too)

But I'm not so certain I would call speculation the ‘easy path’ It’s hard to speculate. It takes imagination and insight and quantum leaps of intuition… it’s definitely not for the weak of mind, that’s for sure.

Speculation is the foundation of our science. The greatest scientists of any era were also the greatest speculators.

Without speculation, you and I would not be having this conversation via the internet (and all the hardware, software and support systems that entails.)

Speculation is one of the things that helps to set us apart from the other life forms on this planet.

Speculation is not a dirty word…

CAN’T, on the other hand, is, in my admittedly limited opinion, the filthiest word /concept on the face of the planet.

This is all pure speculation of course *grins*

catch ya on the flip side.

twj

Can't never could.

Originally posted by torbjon
"...but all we could do is speculate and that gets us nowhere really."

WOW, really?? Speculation gets us Nowhere?? Heavy.

You do know that the title of this forum is:

ATS Skunk Works
Speculative Conspiracy Theory Discussion and Collaboration.

Ok I take back that comment of mine partly. I've never gone into this section of the forum, nor paid much attention to what all it was about. Although I still believe that speculation doesn't really get one closer to any answers, if that is what one is trying to do. But anyway I'll leave you all to your speculating.

Vorlance, ya, Can't never could do anything... sickening concept in my book. I remember growing up teachers (and my parents) and even now that I'm all grown up (and big and stoopid) people telling me "you Can't do that"

huh? but I just DID, what are you talking about... look, I'll do it again *laughs*

I don't pull that crap with my daughter. She can do anythng she can do, if I don't like what it is (like something unsafe, for example) I tell her I don't like what she's doing and remind her that, for the time being, I'm bigger and stronger than she is, so there, nayner nayner nayner.

Ever see the 'From the Earth to the Moon' series (I think it was on Showtime), the one where they are building the LEM?

Now There was some productive speculaton *dreamy*

hmmm...

duty calls
rock on
twj

just a quicky...

jra? A Theory is nothing more than speculation until it is proven or disproven...

speculation is an integral part of the scientific process.

duty is screaming now...

gotta go
twj

Originally posted by vorlance Existence Of Secret Space Program [/url]

Now yer talking!! Been away a few days....ummm some hacker got through...yeah yeah okay I forgot to put up the firewall after uploading here.

That article is from Aviation Week... thats a credible publication...

That is pretty clearly stated...

Originally posted by TrentReznor
Here is The Video Interview with Gary Mckinnon !!! ---Arn't I kind :-)

Yep Thanks for finding it... Maybe hope for you afterall

A Theory is nothing more than speculation until it is proven or disproven...

speculation is an integral part of the scientific process.

Yes but a scientific theory isn't just a bunch of unsubstantiated guesses or hunches. So far all the speculation in this thread has been unsubstantiated. There is no evidence of the exsistance of a fleet or ships nor any large mining/refining/manufacturing operations happening on the far side of the Moon.

The hacker's claims have little to no credibility. He claims to have seen a picture of an unidentifiable craft, but he claims the image was too big to download (if he's seeing it on his computer it's already downloaded ) And if you read my earlier posts about SIPRNet and all the NSA encryptions involved. I doubt he was able to get onto that network. I don't doubt he got onto some DoD and NASA computers that were connected to the internet, but I don't think the Government would be stupid to have such secret and sensitive info sitting on those computers. Anything that's heavily top secret will be on a completely seperate network that has no phyisical connection to any other network, so that it's not accessible from the outside. That's the only way to be 100% secure.

The stuff being talked about in the aviation week article is a far cry from a secret space fleet. stealthy spy satellites or something like Discoverer II have no relation to an aircraft carrier sized ship that can fly around the solar system.

[edit on 29-6-2006 by jra]

Originally posted by Zaphod58 Why does it HAVE to be a sattelite or secret space program?

Because "...two Democrats on the Senate floor"say that "report point to a secret space effort of some kind"

And if you read down three more paragraphs...

"Because they're talking about an expensive acquisition program, it's a logical inference to assume that we're talking about a satellite program," Steven Aftergood of the Washington-based Federation of American Scientists said Dec. 10.

The Democrtic senators don't KNOW what's going on, they were not in the loop, and when they try to say the spending was "totally unjustified and very, very wasteful." they were "overruled in the appropriations conference."

Seems pretty clear to me...

Originally posted by jra
Painting something flat black does not make it stealth.... snip You didn't say anything about painting it with RAM paint.

Maybe not [re RAM paint] but it would be very easy to make the outer hull shaped to be radar reflective, like the stealth fighter, like the stealth hydro foil. Radar is not that great for detection if you WANT to hide from it. It is after all a beam that needs to be reflected to the source. Many ways to break it up, distort it or deflect it [electo magnetic shield perhaps?]

Doesn't really require super advanced alien technology...

Originally posted by vorlance
So, has the US developed antigravity vehicles?

Don't know about that...


But years ago, before the space arm, Spar Aero Space in Canada gave a demo for investors.

It was a 60 ton block of steel on a magnetic rail. They "launched" this block along the rail at high speed towards the viewers. It came to a sudden silent instant stop at a safe distance.... Most impressive display...


[PS Made a killing on those stocks when they went from .75 on friday to 36.00 on monday after the successful test of the arm when Nasa ordered 14 more]

Originally posted by torbjonthis IS the place to engage in Friendly

Yes we are having FUN, well most of us... And as to meaningless speculation... I have found more links to subject matter than I might have snooping around myself. We may be speculating... but as that article from aviation week with senators shows, some are arguing this same thought in THE SENATE and on how much its costing.

While no one in the senate has said "space fleet" that I know of, talking about a " major program" of a "secret space effort ", sure makes me sit up and take notice.

This whole site is about gov conspiracy, yet when they mention this stuff in senate, it doesn't set off any bells? If this is what they say publically, what more is there in that report that got them so upset?