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Question for Creationists from a Christian

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posted on Jun, 21 2006 @ 04:32 PM
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Before I say anything I will make it known that I am a Christian. I believe in God and that Jesus was the Son of God who came to the earth to cleanse our sins. I do not attend church or take the Bible literally. I believe that it is a work of man influenced by God but I don't believe everything actually happened. I believe God told us what He thought we needed to know, whether it's in the form of a story or a literal tale. Ok, on with the questions.

My first question centers on evolution. I don't understand how Christians don't see the power and beauty of evolution. Not even from an ape to man perspective, but the entire world. God created 119 (that we know of) atomic elements and they comprise everything we sense in this world. All it took was 119 pieces and some physics to get to where we are now. Is it more impressive to build a computer that never changes and strictly takes orders or one that can evolve with the environment and make it's own choices? Can you imagine trying to write a computer program that would take 120 pieces and self evolve into life and the appropriate environments?

For me science is just our way of figuring out how God created this universe. Some Christians feel that science is bad and that messing with nature or ourselves is attempting to be God. I argue that God wouldn't allow us to do something that He didn't want us to. If He didn't want us to play with our DNA then he didn't have to create it. I watched a show recently that said we can only sense 4% of the universe, that includes all atomic elements (stars, planets, gas, humans..etc.). Maybe the dark matter and dark energy that is supposed to account for the rest of the universe isn't supposed to be found by us. What if God made us and put us in a little corner of the universe where we kept to ourselves.

Having taken numerous college science courses I've never found anything that weakened my belief in God. My studies in genetics alone blew my mind as to how our DNA works. I think we can find God's beauty wherever we look.

I'm not attempting to argue for or against one side, I'm simply curious as to other Christians thoughts on these ideas. Maybe I'm not taking something into account that could be brought to my attention. I do accept the possiblity that a God doesn't exist and that this world could be random. But given the options I still choose to believe in God. I think it's beyond a human to judge how God could or couldn't have created a universe (whether he chose evolution or not). He could have put fossils here to fool us or our scientific calculations of the universe age could be wrong. It's not for me to figure out God's reasoning. But I have chosen what I believe in and I would like to hear what others think, Christian or non.


EDIT: Upon reading over this I notice that I make a lot of assumptions based on my faith. I don't want this to become an argument about my general beliefs in God, but rather on the concepts that I mentioned. I've chosen to believe in certain things and so have you, as long as we're all happy with our choices then I think everythings fine.

[edit on 21-6-2006 by cedargrove]




posted on Jun, 26 2006 @ 01:11 AM
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I have spend most of my eathly life searching for the truth and surely will for the rest of it and so far i came exactly to the same conclusion as you.

thanks for posting it! It's not everyday i share others beliefs....

You have voted cedargrove for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.



posted on Jun, 28 2006 @ 02:54 PM
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Thanks for the vote Nyxman, it's always nice to hear that others think in similar ways. Although I'm surprised that no one else has replied.



posted on Jun, 28 2006 @ 03:08 PM
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Ok, I don't believe in the Christian god but you do make some good points. If we are indeed creations of some being, then it is entirely possible that being could have all of us fooled with fossils and such. And it is amazing how everything that exists or has existed is comprised of some combination of the elements we know of. My only problem with the concepts you've mentioned is that one of the main ideas of Christianity is that God gave us free-will. Meaning that we can choose to do things or not do things and there is no external force preventing us from doing what we want to, aside from our own laws and things like that. This is what troubles me about your concepts. You said


I watched a show recently that said we can only sense 4% of the universe, that includes all atomic elements (stars, planets, gas, humans..etc.). Maybe the dark matter and dark energy that is supposed to account for the rest of the universe isn't supposed to be found by us. What if God made us and put us in a little corner of the universe where we kept to ourselves.

By preventing us from finding things in the universe, God would in effect be affecting our free-will which would go against the concept of God giving us free-will to begin with. I'm not trying to attack your beliefs or anything like that, I just didn't know if you had thought about that. I'm glad you haven't let science shake your beliefs, and I don't intend to do that.



posted on Jun, 29 2006 @ 11:22 PM
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My only problem with the concepts you've mentioned is that one of the main ideas of Christianity is that God gave us free-will. Meaning that we can choose to do things or not do things and there is no external force preventing us from doing what we want to, aside from our own laws and things like that.


Even if putting us far over here on one side of a massive galaxy, our free will hasn't been taken away to explore it. We have hurdles every single day in life to overcome. Every year our space explorations reach new levels of discovery, constantly pushing the envelope further and further.

I too, am a Christian. I don't go to church very often, but reading past the writings of man, i have gleaned what I view as factual information. Even if the world did start as a big bang, what made it do that? Wouldn't such an event happen again and again, maybe even throwing debris our way from the ripple effect. It would be like dropping a thousand ton boulder , letting it hit terminal velocity and hitting dead center in say, Lake Erie. No matter where you are on the lake, you would notice the ripple.

There has to be a reason we have a conscience and morals. What stopped us from being savages and living by the kill them before they kill you credo?
I believe that God created it all and oversees everything at once, like when you play SIMS world.



posted on Jun, 30 2006 @ 04:59 PM
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Originally posted by Jenna
My only problem with the concepts you've mentioned is that one of the main ideas of Christianity is that God gave us free-will. Meaning that we can choose to do things or not do things and there is no external force preventing us from doing what we want to, aside from our own laws and things like that. This is what troubles me about your concepts.


My thoughts on free will are a little different. Free will from our perspective requires causation which requires time. I make a choice and then something happens. But to God (when I say God I'm generally referring to an omnipotent creator as to not bring any arguments concerning the Christian God) there is no time. To Him the universe has already been created and destroyed so to speak. This is why He knows everything that happened.

In our living conscious minds we make choices and see the consequences carried out. Our perception is that of experiencing free will. To me, God has just already watched us make these choices. But just like life can evolve and adapt I feel our choices can as well. It's just that everytime we make a new choice God's information is updated. I'm not sure if I'm explaining this as well as I would like but basically our concept of time, or rather the general entropy of the universe, has flawed our ability to entirely perceive the notion of free will with an all knowing God.

(getting into some Christian ideas...)

I also believe that when God said He created us in his own image that He didn't literally mean that He is a bipedal symmetrical conscious entity. I like to think that the entire universe, every atom, is a part of His energy. So we are literally crafted from His body. He also said that he is under every rock and behind every tree. Well if He literally is every rock and tree then it makes more sense, to me at least.

I believe that there is a lot of physics and psychology that explains God's creations. Take prayer for an example. There is an psychological idea of a collective unconscious from which all humans make contact with. In quantum physics we learn (if you want to call it that) how much observation can affect reality. What if a large number of minds 'observing' or praying about something actual has real life consequences. I think some people would see this as proof that He doesn't exist but for me it would validate the power and presence of prayer. Not that I don't believe in it, but that is the perspective I would take.



posted on Jul, 1 2006 @ 07:30 AM
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That is where you and I differ. If God knows everything we are going to do, then all our choices have already been made and we all have one destiny that we are headed towards with no way to change our course. If God doesn't know everything we are going to do, then we truly do have free-will and we make our own destinies.

Back to the other point I tried to make with my last post. After I re-read it a few minutes ago I realized that what I was trying to say didn't come out exactly right so I'm going to clarify why I think like I do. If God were to be preventing us from finding out certain things about our universe, that would be taking away our choice of discovering it if we wanted to or not if we don't. In my mind that goes against the statement that we have free-will. To me, free-will means that nothing and no one can hinder my actions, thoughts, or words except myself. God preventing us from doing things would hinder our actions, thoughts or words, whichever the case may be.



posted on Jul, 3 2006 @ 02:54 AM
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Despite of the limited knowledge we are able obtain, it does not hinder our free-will to make our own choices. We still ultimately make our own choices and decisions. It is irrelevant wether God knows all the choices that we have made or not.



posted on Jul, 7 2006 @ 04:20 PM
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Fingon

I tend to agree with your view point. I still believe that our concept of time is what makes it difficult to imagine it. I try to think of it like a math or science problem. All of the "random" things that we can't figure out I believe God can. In fact, I don't really believe in true randomness, but that's a seperate issue.

The way I see it, God has the knowledge of every single variable in every given situation. If you hit a pool ball God could stop time (i use that phrase but really time isn't a factor to Him) and tell you exactly where every ball would end up the moment you hit it. He can take into account your strength, ball weight, bumps on the surface, everything. I just feel that He does that with everything in the universe. We can make a different choice and He's updated the parameters. And that choice is the result of a previous choice and so forth.

Jenna



If God were to be preventing us from finding out certain things about our universe, that would be taking away our choice of discovering it if we wanted to or not if we don't. In my mind that goes against the statement that we have free-will. To me, free-will means that nothing and no one can hinder my actions, thoughts, or words except myself. God preventing us from doing things would hinder our actions, thoughts or words, whichever the case may be.


I think I used too strong of an example for the preventing us from finding things out. I meant it more in the sense that we are bound by the initial setup of the universe. I used DNA as an example because I know there is a lot of religious controversy with cloning, stem cells, and other procedures. The way I see it is that God created DNA, which isn't inherent to the universe, nothing is, it's all created through His will. He could have made us reproduce in a manner that simply did not allow us to control or manipulate. We didn't have to breathe air but he created a setup that allowed atmospheres, gases, and lungs to process them.

I try not to take anything as a given because I believe that God made choices when He created us and the universe. He didn't just randomly say 'poof' and let's see what happens. In the same way we have free will and choice He does too. So I don't think He's hiding stuff from us packed away somewhere, He just chose not to create it that way. If that makes any sense...



posted on Jul, 7 2006 @ 04:41 PM
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Here's the deal. If you call yourself something, that means you have to basically accept those things that come along with the definition, or you can't call yourself that anymore.

Take being a Roman Catholic, for instance. Say you're a Roman Catholic, but you use birth control, and maybe think the Pope is occasionally full of crap, and you were baptised but never bothered to go to Confession. Well, congratulations! You can't call yourself a Roman Catholic anymore!

Now, let's say that you call yourself a Christian. But maybe you think the Bible isn't always 100 percent accurate, and maybe when Jesus was just exaggerating when he said that in order to follow him you needed to leave your family and give up all your personal belongings. And maybe you can't quite wrap your mind around the whole "God playing at being a Man" thing. And you're still a little sketchy on the Holy Trinity. Or think that somehow things "evolve" and that God didn't make them perfect to begin with. Well, too bad. You can't be a Christian.

It's not that you're a bad person. It's just that you'll never get to go to Heaven and meet Jesus and Mary and Joseph and the Talking Walnut. That's the price you pay for having all of these non-Christian thoughts and not buying the entire Christian package. So you can have your rationalistic science, with all the logic and theory testing, but Jesus said you needed to be like a little child to go his way. Sorry. When you're dealing with ontological absolutes, that's the way the cookie crumbles.

Maybe you can find one of those apologistic sects that picks and chooses what they like out of the Bible, and does backflips to interpret the other stuff the way they want it to be, and convinces themselves they're still "Christian," even though they're as heathen as the next guy. Live in a rationalizing fool's paradise. Maybe you'll get to go to Rationalizer's Heaven. Who knows?

[edit on 7-7-2006 by Enkidu]



posted on Jul, 8 2006 @ 12:21 AM
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If you can't take the bible literally, how can you take it? If one thing can't be meant literally, how can another? How can you tell what's literal and whats not? You could say that Jesus never really lived and he didn't die for us. So how can you think that one thing is literal and the other's not? What is Christianity if the bible isn't literally true?



posted on Jul, 20 2006 @ 02:37 PM
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See I don't believe in a god that treats me like an Idiot. If he inspired a bunch of men to write down some stories that were just "Lessons" and planted a bunch of fossils and did all this stuff to test my faith then that is wrong. A REAL God would have gave us the truth... not some fairytales to make us behave and be obedient. If you don't believe the Bible is literal... but a collection of fairytales and you still want to put your faith into it.... come on man, get real

Free you mind



posted on Jul, 21 2006 @ 06:45 PM
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God has spoken with truth, it's Man that rearranges the words to better off himself. This is the choice of man. The choice of God is to have everyone love each other and live in harmony... but we failed that several thousand years ago... or so it's taught to us in the Bible and or in history books. it's called, miscomunications... it happens everyday.

I've always wanted a way to say to people, God created the Big Bang, God created this universe in creating the Big Bang, God created this solar system that was an effect of the big bang, God created this Galaxy that swirls through the solar system, and God created this Planet and all the beings of this planet. And God told man to write it down for generations to come... it's man that decides how to understand and or manipulate those words.



posted on Aug, 6 2006 @ 02:00 PM
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Originally posted by cedargrove
My first question centers on evolution. I don't understand how Christians don't see the power and beauty of evolution. Not even from an ape to man perspective, but the entire world. God created 119 (that we know of) atomic elements and they comprise everything we sense in this world. All it took was 119 pieces and some physics to get to where we are now. Is it more impressive to build a computer that never changes and strictly takes orders or one that can evolve with the environment and make it's own choices? Can you imagine trying to write a computer program that would take 120 pieces and self evolve into life and the appropriate environments?[edit on 21-6-2006 by cedargrove]

My question to you is that how did god manage to create 119 elements when over 30 elements are man made?



G



posted on Aug, 7 2006 @ 01:15 PM
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freeyourmind

See I don't believe in a god that treats me like an Idiot. If he inspired a bunch of men to write down some stories that were just "Lessons" and planted a bunch of fossils and did all this stuff to test my faith then that is wrong. A REAL God would have gave us the truth... not some fairytales to make us behave and be obedient. If you don't believe the Bible is literal... but a collection of fairytales and you still want to put your faith into it.... come on man, get real


For the same reason parents don't explain the entire process of sexual intercouse to an eight year old. The same reasons parents tell their kids about santa claus. We are God's children, we will always be children compared to Him. If God were to explain to us how He created everything and how it's all supposed to work we wouldn't understand it. A lot of kids can't pass a basic science test much less understand God's creations, thoughts, or processes. Sometimes the moral or purpose of a story is more important than the details of the story itself. I can't judge God's actions or reasons because I believe in Him and his omnipotence. I do not believe that fossils were planted, I merely used it as an example of how my human brain can not possibly estimate or assume to know what God chooses to do.

I put my faith in my personal relationship with God. In fact, I put my faith in the simple fact that I exist. I am a living conscious being. That blows my mind, it's utterly amazing that we even exist as we do. I think this life is a gift He's given us and He's blessed me many times over. I find Him in my daily life and try to follow the moral and life principles that He told us. I love helping other people and became a psychology major because of that. I find strength and happiness in my relationship with Him and will continue to do my best to follow His ways. I may not believe in the literal aspects and stories of the Bible but I look for what He was trying to tell us through His examples.

If He just explained everything to us and let it all out to the light of day then faith would no longer exist. Faith is about believing in something that you can't necessarily prove or put a finger on. He gives us free will so that we can make the choice of faith. If He shows himself or His truth then we would have no choice to believe because everyone saw a 500ft all powerful being (a completely ridiculous example but you get my point) on the evening news.

shihulud


My question to you is that how did god manage to create 119 elements when over 30 elements are man made?


Because those elements are only man made on Earth. They could exist in some deep space cloud of dust that's under the right conditions. We discovered the man-made elements in a laboratory while we discovered the others on Earth/space. The composition and structure of those elements are the same as any other. It's protons, neutrons, and electrons in varying patterns/charges/configurations. Our natural environment does not permit these man made elements to exist naturally or without controlled laboratory conditions.

wyldwylly
A great way to put it, I completely agree. We find His truth through our perceptions, which is different for everyone.



posted on Aug, 7 2006 @ 10:04 PM
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Originally posted by cedargrove


For the same reason parents don't explain the entire process of sexual intercouse to an eight year old. The same reasons parents tell their kids about santa claus. We are God's children, we will always be children compared to Him.


That is all fine and dandy, but why then did God never once make himself appearant to mankind?

Why also is the basis of modern man's belief in Christianity, the Holy Bible, anonymous and without authority?



posted on Aug, 7 2006 @ 10:06 PM
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Originally posted by wyldwylly
God has spoken with truth...


How is it that you have unique knowledge of what God has spoken of, when no man on Earth has this special knowledge?



posted on Aug, 7 2006 @ 10:39 PM
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Originally posted by Rev Paine


That is all fine and dandy, but why then did God never once make himself appearant to mankind?

Why also is the basis of modern man's belief in Christianity, the Holy Bible, anonymous and without authority?


Ahem.....
Allow me to let you in on a little something special here...

God DID in fact make himself apparent to mankind!
FO SHIZZLE DAWG! (if that's what it takes to get you paying attention)

Here's the thing....
God DID show himself to mankind. You have to make sure you're paying attention, & willing to see what is truly meant here.... (just like if one of your own friends was trying to let you in on a secret without physically grabbing you, shaking you, & yelling in your face, "LOOK MAN!!! HERE'S WHAT I'M SAYING....") .... something like that.


This goes back to Thomas & Philip talking to Jesus. They were asking about "The Father, God". They wanted to SEE the FATHER.....
(pay attention here. It's VERY IMPORTANT)


Jhn 14:1 ¶ Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

Jhn 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Jhn 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jhn 14:7 ¶ If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Jhn 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?

Jhn 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.



What Jesus is saying to them is,
" Hey guys, After all the time I've spent with you, you STILL don't know who I am? if you've seen ME you've seen the FATHER. So WHY do you keep asking to see him? Oh yeah, one more thing fellas, Keep MY commandments".

Remember... GOD gave the commandments to Moses LONG before Jesus came to Earth. Jesus is saying, "KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS".
Why??

Because Jesus is God, manifest in the flesh.
GOD came to Earth as a real man, in the manifestation of Jesus.
(Remember also, the Trinity... GOD is ONE GOD... But exsists as 3 individual personalities/entities..... The Father, the Son, & The Holy Spirit)

So God DID make himself apparent to mankind.

& the Bible being "anonymous.. and without authority?????"
Where did you get that idea?

Since you have an internet connection, I would recommend researching the historical documentation of the Bible. It wasn't written anonymously without authority. People testified by their lives that they were wittness to the writings, & the visitations by God, or the angles who brought the messages to be written down.

(TESTIFIED BY THEIR LIVES!!!!!)- OK, maybe nowadays that means nothing, but back then it was everything!

Just wanted to help you out with your questions.



posted on Aug, 7 2006 @ 11:30 PM
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More jibberish from the bible that means nothing. Why has god not shown himself again? Surely something that can create a universe can reappear on earth and help people believe that he's real, right? The only thing that people have to make them believe in god is the bible which changes daily and church which is scripted from the bible. Why is it that he was here 2000 years ago but disappeared and what was the rest of the world doing during that time? They had no idea that god was on earth and had to wait for the book to know that their god was really here!



posted on Aug, 8 2006 @ 12:19 PM
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Originally posted by marko1970

Just wanted to help you out with your questions.






Thank you for trying to help, however, your references are again, anynomous and absent of authority! The Bible is hearsay on top of heresay!

"No one will deny or dispute the power of the Almighty to make such a communication if he pleases. But admitting, for the sake of a case, that something has been revealed to a certain person, and not revealed to any other person, it is revelation to that person only. When he tells it to a second person, a second to a third, a third to a fourth, and so on, it ceases to be a revelation to all those persons. It is revelation to the first person only, and hearsay to every other, and, consequently, they are not obliged to believe it.

When I am told that the Koran was written in Heaven, and brought to Mahomet by an angel, the account comes to near the same kind of hearsay evidence and second hand authority as the former. I did not see the angel myself, and therefore I have a right not to believe it.

When also I am told that a woman, called the Virgin Mary, said, or gave out, that she was with child without any cohabitation with a man, and that her betrothed husband, Joseph, said that an angel told him so, I have a right to believe them or not: such a circumstance required a much stronger evidence than their bare word for it: but we have not even this; for neither Joseph nor Mary wrote any such matter themselves. It is only reported by others that they said so. It is hearsay upon hearsay, and I do not chose to rest my belief upon such evidence.

The presumption is that the books called the Evangelists, and ascribed to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, were not written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; and that they are impositions. The disordered state of the history in these four books, the silence of one book upon matters related in the other, and the disagreement that is to be found among them, implies that they are the productions of some unconnected individuals, many years after the things they pretend to relate, each of whom made his own legend; and not the writings of men living intimately together, as the men called apostles are supposed to have done: in fine, that they have been manufactured, as the books of the Old Testament have been, by other persons than those whose names they bear"

Moreover, the authors of the books Matthew, Mark, Luke and John cannot even agree on the order of events of the death of Christ, the events that supposedly happened while the four men were together, or the events of the life of Jesus.

It is quite an irrefuteable fact that the four books were written by ananymous authors, several years after the death of Christ, and all four books are merely attempting to be a histroy of what did happen, not a record of what actually happened. Therefore, they are hearsay on top of hearsay, and have no validity whatsoever. The Bible invalidates its self.

I challenge you to produce any evidence that God has ever shown its self on Earth.

[edit on 8-8-2006 by Rev Paine]



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