Red army to receive 250 new types of weaponry in 2006

howlrunnerIV, the US supplied saddam with biological and chemical weapons, or at least helped him out to develop it, plus who says it is that hard to create chemical weapons, or if they didn't supply him with it, just to make you happy, they at least didn't object, and of course non of the world really objected any further, because western europe was just moving with the US all through the cold war, and the USSR really didn't have anything to do with Saddam so they didn't care!

Originally posted by White Chapel
Oh my word man, what do you take me for?

You do not want to know and i would get banned either way.

I was reading your sources then I realized where they are from.

So your not really disputing the material but generally questioning the sources themselves? Unless you can post actual information disputing the statistics and figures you have no business bothering us with your bias against certain sources. Put up or shut up.

One is counterpunch which is a left-wing anti-Zionist political rag

Political rag? Not being anti-Zionist is basically admitting that you support terrorist and a terrorist state. They criticize the Israeli government as well as both American parties and they run pretty good article's from a wide range of authors.

(weird, since you invoked Chomsky who always identified himself as pro-Zionist...weird dichotomy you have going here),

Just your own ignorance and bias interfering with your ability to judge much anything fairly. Chomsky is NOT pro-zionist and neither where many Jews at the turn of the century. Zionism is a modern invention and not a particularly useful one either unless you are looking for a excuse for large scale theft and general terrorism.

one is MrZine which is put out by Monthly Review a socialist and anti-American publisher who's editors are self-proclaimed Marxists,

So you do not like them because they have very different political aspirations? You have every right not to like the messenger but please address the message if you want to be taken seriously.

and one from what appears to be the Democratic party (not exactly a reliable source when trying to score points against a republican president).

Oh so now the Democratic party of your OWN country ( a county with only two parties) can not be trusted? Is the facts and figures wrong ( they must have copied it from pro-Zionist/socialist/communist sites since their a completely insane stupid party?) according to you or is this the best you can do in defense of your ignorance on this issue?

These sources are so far out there, even a left-leaning college professor like myself can't take it seriously.

These sources are all rather main stream for the rest of the world and if you live such a closeted life that you can not see that for truth the problem is very much in your own mind.

I get your agenda man...I get it, but it's kind of pathetic that you try to pass it off as scholarly, reliable sources on a web site. Sheesh...

You have not actually disputed numbers or figures but i guess we all must act within our abilities when it comes to supporting our arguments and ideas. If this is the way you conduct yourself in 'discussion' ( and i am being generous) it's no surprise why your teaching economics , economist being the arrogant ignorant bunch that they are.

Stellar

Originally posted by White Chapel
and I haven't? I provided perfect examples of why what he is saying isn't true, links and all if you care to read them. See my above post...some people are just blinded...

I have not seen any of the 'source material'/examples or anything related to the truth coming from your keyboard so drop the act. I would much rather be blind and take advice on how to avoid the wall than be so arrogant that i just deny the existence of the wall instead.

Stellar

Originally posted by White Chapel
What the hell is this suppose to mean? You're going to find me and kick my ass? Hahahaha, see what I mean people...delusional.

If you read carefully, and if it requires great mental effort please persist, you should be able to discover that it was not a threat to your person but to your posting style and general conduct on this forum. I suggest a course in fairly basic English as modern economic theory ( as practiced and fanatically preached in the 'west') does no more than dull the mind of the decidedly dull witted adherents.

Stellar

Originally posted by White Chapel
I have no interest in teaching you anything,

You seem quite unable of even discovering basic truths so i am not surprised that admit to not being able to teach.

my colleagues and I are having a good laugh at your expense.

I am sure you need a support group but you admitting to it is quite the surprise. Say hi to your resident therapist if he/she manages to get a break this year.

You are misguided and uniformed...

Misguided i might be but uninformed i am not by most any general standard i have heard of. Feel free to defend your opinions ( you can start whenever you like) and discover just how well informed, if misguided, i really am.

but no one will ever convince you of that. After all, if you know that you're crazy, you're not really crazy.

I can only be convinced when something makes sense and is supported by at least some logical reasoning and since i do not see that in your writing or opinions i can but wonder why you of all people would be the first to question my sanity. By your standard ( facts do not matter and reality is shaped by belief; not observation) i guess i might seem insane but that is in my opinion how we SHOULD be conducting ourselves.

Stellar

You're entirely missing the point...AGAIN. I don't trust information from idealogical agencies...never have, never will. People that are that zoned in on one way of thinking, be it far right far left, or whatever, will ignore or misinterpret any information that would contradict their way of thought. That's why I don't even bother reading articles from organizations who are self-proclaimed marxists, or socialists, or anti-whatever because their personal views taint any info (good or bad) to such an extent it can't be trusted. Once again, I'd figure a guy who claims to be so well read would already understand this.
And Chomsky considers himself a Zionist, I'm sure I could find a quote but there are plenty of biographies of him out there that an expert like you has access to.


[edit on 27-7-2006 by White Chapel]

*SIGH*....I posted some detailed links with index information showing that the US isn't in some sort of terrible economic shape (due to wage differences or whatever)...but I guess you didn't care. Here's another approach:
CPI

This is the consumer price index, it's one way we look at inflation here. You'll see its pretty low, it's been lower, but it's also been a whole lot higher. One thing you'll notice though is it tends to stay pretty steady, sure there are some tough years here and there but the US keeps chugging along pretty evenly.

You know, as an aside, it's weird to think that someone from Sout Africa, where black people didn't really have rights until the mid-90's, you have a terrible crime problem particularly with respect to violent crime, and at least 1/5 of the population has HIV, thinks that they have the answer to the US's problems. None of our issues are anywhere near as pressing as what you got going on there. You should think about devoting your considerable resources to shoring up your country, and letting us worry about ours.

I've been to Cape Town and South Africa several times doing volunteer work, and once for an entire semester as a faculty sponsor on a student study abroad program, and I've spent a lot of time in Lesotho as well and you guys aren't nearly as bad off as Lesotho, but when I read stuff like this I understand some things. Mainly, you need to get your focus in the right place, and it's not spending time on the interet debating issues of a country that's in another hemisphere. We can't continue to carry the burden for all you other countries, you have to help yourselves.

Originally posted by White Chapel
You're entirely missing the point...AGAIN.

Sure sounds good as a statement but where is the evidence? Talking about ideologues....

I don't trust information from idealogical agencies...never have, never will.

Entirely irrelevant. I do not care , nor will i pretend to, if you trust them or do not trust but as the question here is DISPROVING their claims with alternative and better sources claims. If you can or will not provide such your 'feelings' and 'opinions' matters only so much and are of no use in terms of research.

People that are that zoned in on one way of thinking, be it far right far left, or whatever, will ignore or misinterpret any information that would contradict their way of thought.

I agree.

That's why I don't even bother reading articles from organizations who are self-proclaimed marxists, or socialists, or anti-whatever because their personal views taint any info (good or bad) to such an extent it can't be trusted.

While you make 'trust' the main issue here your not only missing the point but wasting every one's time. The proof is in the pudding and you have not served any.

Once again, I'd figure a guy who claims to be so well read would already understand this.

Hey i do and that's why i actually checked out the claims and provided sources from many perspectives.

Democratic Staff of the Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee
United States Senate
July 1, 2004

www.policyalmanac.org...

You just called them 'liberal' and proceeded to ignore everything they said. Since i am doing all the work anyways please provide me with authorities ( their websites) which findings you consider 'true' and 'unbiased' so i can provide you with their take on the same facts proving exactly what the sites i gave said more expressly and with less intent of covering up truth.

And Chomsky considers himself a Zionist, I'm sure I could find a quote but there are plenty of biographies of him out there that an expert like you has access to.

Chomsky is no Zionist and haven't been for the massive majority of his adult life. We all believe some crazy things while growing up and Chomsky was also young once.

Stellar

I've provided you with links containing statistical data and not social commentary. It's been your choice to ignore them, and frankly I really don't care anymore. I have to prepare for classes for the fall where I will once again be taking a trip to your continent to spend my filthy American dollars on helping to build your infastructure. I just wish the American government allowed me to make more money so I could fund more projects in Africa...this horrible government continues to take food out of my kids mouths and fails to provide me with the opportunities to help people in other countries. It's so terrible here..when will it all end.

white chapel, if the US government is taking food out of your childrens mouth, well it's not giving that food away to south africa or anywhere in the world, it's getting it all back with full interest. the banks of the wesst, not only the US, give to the world bank, the bank tells them it'll pay it back along with interest, now the World Bank goes ahead and loans poor countries like south africa a whole lotta money, South Africa if it has some 10billion debt or maybe higher cannot pay off those loans, but it keeps making a minimum payment, which is the interest, and here you go, countries are loaded with debt, they keep paying only interest, and sooner or later it might not be able to pay even the minimum payment, then large banks from around the world come ahead and rescue that country and give it even more loans so it can make more payments, and a country keeps spirralling down the drain of debt. it's s very shameful practice, and the most shamefull and disdainful act of all, is the world bank actually helping the huge international corporations that are more primarily in the US and the Western hemisphere, for instance thailand used to have one of the highest rates of small bussiness growth in the region, then in the 80's it became so loaded in debt, but it still made payments, but the world bank didn't take the payments, it gave thailand a plan for "privatizing", and the idea was that thailand give most of it's resources such as water and electricity, etc. to international corporations, for instance some countries gave there oil, if any, to international corp. such as BP, or Exxon-Mobil, Water resources were given to some companies like vivendi. or in argentina, the world bank created a sell off in the 1980's on most thirld owrld countries because they were running behind, they told argentina to sell off all it's oil, water and gas resources to companies like vivendi, Enron, repsol, and a few other multi-nationals.

this happened in many or most third- world countries, and it was done through a complex plan by Large Multinationals along with the great huge banks of the Western government, of course some banks in Japan could of course be part of this, as it is the second largest economy. the process was officialy called privatization, but many elite economisats and researchers, call it rather "briberization" for instance in argentina in 1988, jeb bush called on an argenine senator to sell of a gas pipeline to Enron for 1/5 th of it's market value, and promised him in return for the discount a percentage of the discount would be deposited to the senators swiss bank account.

now this was all a complex plan, look at his, the Banks and multinationals give a lotta money to the World Bank, the world bank redistributes that money as loans in the 60's, 70's, 50's, and 40's, by the 80's the thirld world countries are lagging behind on payments, why becuase the World bank gave them billions of dollars in loans to build public companies rather than private companies, those companies by the 80's were failling misery and were dragging the economies of the thirld world with them.

now i'm not gonna go on an on about his, here is the source of this information:



policestateplanning.com...

you can either cut a nd paste the ling into your browser or just click on the link, but i don't know if the link is working. now it is a conspiracy theory or a NWO very long road mpa or paper, but it does provide statistic data form the World bank, and world renouned resources, and it's not biased either. it's loang paper you might not read it all but there are parts about the world bank and economic stuff that you might wanna read.

What would you have people do? Do you want the US government to take our citizens money and give it to someone else in some sort of wealth redistritibution? When I want a house, can I just get someone who is richer to pay for it for me? Please, a loan is fair for both parties. Terms are always negotiable and the person taking the loan always has the most power because they can just walk away from the table.
I'm not sure what your solution is suppose to be, I don't want my tax dollars going to build up other peoples countries. If there's an emergency, sure, we'd be glad to help and US citizens are the most generous in the world giving much more time and money to international causes than anyone else. But US citizens don't want their money taken from them and given to someone else in a compulsory fashion. So I ask you again, what would you have the US do?

look i agree with you, you can't just give handouts to other countries, but you don't intentively load most 3rd world countries with loans for projects that you know in 10 years or so will be failing miserably, you provide them with loans for projects that you know will work and that will enable them to repay that loan. and when they fail to pay the loans because you gave them failed projects, you don't force them to sell there resources to multinational companies, this is shameful, disdainful, and unacceptable!

you see many or most 3rd world countries could've been very rather prosperous countries if the World bank actually did it's job and gave them loans in the right places, and was looking after the interest of those countries rather than the interests of the multinational companies and banks. now, i know this is rather a dream, the US with it wealth can bring many countries in southeast asia and africa and south america to a great prosperous era if it cooperates with Europe and the world bank to develop successful projects for these countries, and this wouldn't be bad for bussiness, it would be great fro bussiness and it would lead to HEALTHY GLOBALIZATION, rather than harsh and dillusional and harmful way of globalization.

in the 80's if you look, you might see that the World Bank said that "a wave of privatization has swept the 3rd world..." in fact i'd rather call it "a wave of selling off 3rd world countries to multinational companies has occured!..."

Originally posted by White Chapel
I've provided you with links containing statistical data and not social commentary.

I finally found those much talked about links and as i indicated right at the start their not even worthy of consideration on the very specific issue of declining relative purchasing power since the mid 70's. To pretend that those sources 'defended' your point of view is just completely inaccurate.

It's been your choice to ignore them, and frankly I really don't care anymore.

I just thought you had more to show for all your 'expertise' but i suppose i have uncommonly high standards when it comes to judging reality and it's constituent facts.

I have to prepare for classes for the fall where I will once again be taking a trip to your continent to spend my filthy American dollars on helping to build your infastructure.

The African continent annually 'lose' ( negative cash flow to just the 'west') AT LEAST 300 billion USD and it would be best if took your money and helped yourself instead of imagining that your helping to fix the problem by vacationing here. It's a beautiful place so just come to enjoy it.

I just wish the American government allowed me to make more money so I could fund more projects in Africa...this horrible government continues to take food out of my kids mouths and fails to provide me with the opportunities to help people in other countries. It's so terrible here..when will it all end.

Oh it IS ending but considering your subservient self serving government worshipping attitude you will be one of the last one's to feel the hunger so many already experience. At the very least you know which side your bread is buttered so i commend you on picking to serve those who can best reward you financially.

Stellar

Originally posted by White Chapel
What would you have people do? Do you want the US government to take our citizens money and give it to someone else in some sort of wealth redistritibution?

Well sane people want their tax money spent on infrastructure and services NOT on giving handouts to big business which is well able to rip off it's clients and workers with government help. Wealth distribution is a GREAT idea and even blood drinking freaking bats help out each other when they 'had a bad night on the job' so it's hilarious that the vampire modern state should give so much of the 'blood' it extracts right back to a species ( big business) that refuses to share no matter what.

When I want a house, can I just get someone who is richer to pay for it for me?

Well ideally i suggest we just use the taxes legally 'extracted' but then proceed to spend it on the original owners according to their needs which were not so far met by the state. If the state can not manage to create a environment where people can better themselves along their own dreams then it's completely pointless and failing in the only meaningful function it could ever fulfill.

Please, a loan is fair for both parties.

If what is loaned must be repaid with any kind of interest it really is not 'fair' as it is a not a specific resource and is created from thin air. If a currency is not distributed in such a way that it enables and speeds up the exchange of actual goods or services it is just another way to control people and limit human interaction and development.

Terms are always negotiable and the person taking the loan always has the most power because they can just walk away from the table.

Which does not alter the reality that those who takes loans normally do so because they are trying to get ahead when they clearly do not understand the game they are getting into. When you already HAVE enough money the only reason to take a loan is because you have discovered a opportunity which you do not have the enough capitol to full exploit to your advantage. The current monetary system is basically set up to enrich the rich ( those who do what is expected and generally serve the states interest) and to enable the manipulation of the rest by increasing and decreasing the flow of currency in the economy as required to create boom and bust cycle's to 'reposses' the life energy spent on construction of homes and enterprises in general.

I'm not sure what your solution is suppose to be, I don't want my tax dollars going to build up other peoples countries.

That can only happen when you allow your government to use your resources to THEIR advantage ( buying foreign allies with YOUR money to destroy YOUR job and way of life and general security) thus leading to a decline in your living standard making you ever more exploitable and dependent on their 'credit' system.

If there's an emergency, sure, we'd be glad to help and US citizens are the most generous in the world giving much more time and money to international causes than anyone else.

A complete fabrication, however good or bad you do math. To dignify this stunning , if widespread , delusion with more words is not something i can stomach doing tonight.

But US citizens don't want their money taken from them and given to someone else in a compulsory fashion. So I ask you again, what would you have the US do?

Then why are US citizens losing their tax money to rich corporate thieves when it's not being wasted on perfectly useless army that has not and can not defend America's real interest ( Job security and general health)? It's just completely ludicrous to argue that American citizens do not 'want' their money to be taken when it is as taken just like everywhere else in the world.

What a disappointment you turned out to be. So very glad your not educating anyone i know.

Stellar

you know i'd rather say what a dissappointment the US goverment is turning out to be. the US isa great country, it's history is full of great people, it went from nothing to a lot, but unfortunatly those bastards that are controlling the US government are surely turnign this country into a dissappointment. i wish a president would one day rise up a little and save this great country, how unfortunate....

Originally posted by INc2006
you know i'd rather say what a dissappointment the US goverment is turning out to be.

It's been seriously letting down it's citizens for well over a century ( and probably much longer) so this is not some kind of 'new' failing that young Bush is 'visiting' on the American people....

the US isa great country, it's history is full of great people, it went from nothing to a lot,

Beside the fact that there is plenty of space and a lot of people willing to defend their rights it's only feature worthy of note is how heavily armed it normally was.... In Europe there just was no space to fall back into and the states did not frequently gave you the opportunity to survive a uprising of much any sort.

but unfortunatly those bastards that are controlling the US government are surely turnign this country into a dissappointment.

The only people who can fail their country is it's citizens as states and their leaders seemingly always favour brutality and suppression as their tools of 'leadership'. This has become especially true in the modern age where no state is truly independent in the sense that i can decide on it's aims in 'vacuum' which explains the blatant criminality of so many smaller states ( they just do what their told) so very well.

i wish a president would one day rise up a little and save this great country, how unfortunate....

Presidents infrequently perpetrate anything but violence of their own accord and any other type of action comes because the people/citizens demand it and refuse to take no for a answer. If you want change please do not hope for a 'better' president as that is much like hoping for a 'good' heart attack.

Stellar

[edit on 29-7-2006 by StellarX]

Originally posted by INc2006
look i agree with you, you can't just give handouts to other countries, but you don't intentively load most 3rd world countries with loans for projects that you know in 10 years or so will be failing miserably, you provide them with loans for projects that you know will work and that will enable them to repay that loan. and when they fail to pay the loans because you gave them failed projects, you don't force them to sell there resources to multinational companies, this is shameful, disdainful, and unacceptable!

But if you only agree to give them loans for projects that the US thinks will work, they will complain that we won't even loan them money. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. I really think people underestimate the factor of luck in being successful. Whether its a person or a corporation or a country, luck is a big factor.

Originally posted by StellarX

If there's an emergency, sure, we'd be glad to help and US citizens are the most generous in the world giving much more time and money to international causes than anyone else.

A complete fabrication, however good or bad you do math. To dignify this stunning , if widespread , delusion with more words is not something i can stomach doing tonight.

Oh really? You've once again proven your idealogical stance can not objectively approach a question such as this. Your anti-US stance is making you completely delusional.
Article on US private aid

Most importantly, I'd direct your attention to this quote:
"The United States is the clear leader in all measures of private assistance to the developing world."

And this article:
Private Aid for 2003

Most importantly this quote:
"Of the 108.5 billion given by major countries in foreign aid and investment in 2003, the US contributed 35% or 37.8 billion."

Keep holding on to that "US is crumbling" dream though, the gutter is lined with people who have thought that way through the generations.

look those governments where following plans given to them by the World bank, and i know the world bank can differentiate between a good project and a project that will fail, plus those banks and corporations giving out loans to 3rd world countries also know if a certain project will work or not. plus look at this, south korea did not follow the world banks projects and plans, and it prospered and has a great ammount of industry and private small bussinesses, while thailand for instance, followed the world bank, and it crumbled and is only now recovering, and not nearly as fast as it should, and is still a poor country, when it could've been a prosperous countyry if it continued without the world bank.

or for instance, in africa, the world bank continued to send more and more loans to dictatorships that they knew won't build any successful projects, and all that money, billions and billions, are now what should be called "frozen capital" meaning it's not working with the economy, it's not circulating, it's doing nothing but making inflation skyrocket, and making economies crumble. now the world bank gets much adn much of it's money from western banks and corporations, so don't tell me the world bank is a seperate entity and has nothing to do with the US or the Western hemisphere.

Originally posted by StellarX

Originally posted by INc2006
you know i'd rather say what a dissappointment the US goverment is turning out to be.

It's been seriously letting down it's citizens for well over a century ( and probably much longer) so this is not some kind of 'new' failing that young Bush is 'visiting' on the American people....

the US isa great country, it's history is full of great people, it went from nothing to a lot,

Beside the fact that there is plenty of space and a lot of people willing to defend their rights it's only feature worthy of note is how heavily armed it normally was.... In Europe there just was no space to fall back into and the states did not frequently gave you the opportunity to survive a uprising of much any sort.

but unfortunatly those bastards that are controlling the US government are surely turnign this country into a dissappointment.

The only people who can fail their country is it's citizens as states and their leaders seemingly always favour brutality and suppression as their tools of 'leadership'. This has become especially true in the modern age where no state is truly independent in the sense that i can decide on it's aims in 'vacuum' which explains the blatant criminality of so many smaller states ( they just do what their told) so very well.

i wish a president would one day rise up a little and save this great country, how unfortunate....

Presidents infrequently perpetrate anything but violence of their own accord and any other type of action comes because the people/citizens demand it and refuse to take no for a answer. If you want change please do not hope for a 'better' president as that is much like hoping for a 'good' heart attack.

Stellar

[edit on 29-7-2006 by StellarX]

you know your turning this way too Anti-USA. for instance, in case of an uprisings, there wasn't any in fact, and the whiskey rebellions and those that happened in the early stages of the country had to be suppressed, as for the civil war, well the platform that the South was depending on, slavery, is wrong and it was "all fitting and proper" that the north do what it did. and there was no more uprisings of any kind. or for instance, in WWII, Roosevelt brought the US out of poverty, it doesn't matter who was controlling him, but he still did good to the people. or for instance Eisenhower, he balanced the economy, did not follow the military -industrial complex, and even warned against it.

so not all presidents were a failure.

as for countries being trully 'independent' well many rather smaller contries are, cuch as switzerland, luxembourg, or finland, or belgium, and the like. but of course big countries such as the US, France, Germany, or the like have to be controlled some way or another. for instance even the UN is controlled some way or another by some body, i mean when it takes them a week to meat for a crisis, weeks and months to agree to something, weeks and months to coordinate that something, and even more weeks and months to act on what they coordinated and agreed on, and more weeks and months for what they coordinated to actually have an effect, it is definitly controlled by some one!

Originally posted by INc2006
you know your turning this way too Anti-USA. for instance, in case of an uprisings, there wasn't any in fact, and the whiskey rebellions and those that happened in the early stages of the country had to be suppressed,

I am not talking about 'uprisings' in that sense . What i mean is that Americans moved inland and tried their best to avoid being subject to repression. People only rebel when they see that their governments do not have their interest in mind.

as for the civil war, well the platform that the South was depending on, slavery, is wrong and it was "all fitting and proper" that the north do what it did.

The war against the 'South' was not about slavery as such but that was a nice rallying call considering that the South could never do away with slavery and stay even remotely independent. To make slavery the issue over which they had a war is pure revisionism and justifying the death of so many hundreds of thousands in that light just makes no sense.

and there was no more uprisings of any kind. or for instance, in WWII, Roosevelt brought the US out of poverty,

Purely coincidental in my opinion as that is what you use to 'pay off' the nation when you want to take it to war. Do you know that the UN reported that they have never seen a more efficient food distribution than the one Iraq had under SH? Do you realise that Germans had the highest living standards by a good margin in the mid to late 30's? Fascism may start slowly ( Americans have always been more independent minded where Europeans never had much opportunity to get away with that) but it ends up the same if people do not resist.

it doesn't matter who was controlling him,

How does it not matter who is in control? As i mentioned totalitarian regimes are quite willing to reward those who do what their told.

but he still did good to the people. or for instance Eisenhower, he balanced the economy, did not follow the military -industrial complex, and even warned against it.

Balancing the economy? Why? Warning against something is great but look what actually happened to the world during his 'reign'.

so not all presidents were a failure.

They fail only in terms of not doing their best to better the lives of their citizens but do not for a moment think they are not quite successful in terms of robbing us of our life energy and freedom.

as for countries being trully 'independent' well many rather smaller contries are, cuch as switzerland, luxembourg, or finland, or belgium, and the like.

Uh. How did you arrive at that conclusions? What has led you to believe that smaller countries can be independent when larger one's are clearly not?

but of course big countries such as the US, France, Germany, or the like have to be controlled some way or another. for instance even the UN is controlled some way or another by some body, i mean when it takes them a week to meat for a crisis, weeks and months to agree to something, weeks and months to coordinate that something, and even more weeks and months to act on what they coordinated and agreed on, and more weeks and months for what they coordinated to actually have an effect, it is definitly controlled by some one!

People are not stupid and moving too fast in stealing people's freedoms is a certain way to fail when you are the massive minority trying to accomplish such a blatent theft. The question should not be why bureaucracy moves so slowly but why it never seems to really change it's aim. If you can tell me how the aim can always stay the same as the decades go by we might arrive at the topic i really want to discuss! I think we agree on more than you think we do .....

Stellar

[edit on 29-7-2006 by StellarX]