Iraq's forces finds two missing soldiers dead, tortured.

Originally posted by bodrul

if the US doesnt follow it you really think insurgents would bother?

Seeing what the insurgents and terrorists have been doing for the last 3 years. Wouldn't matter if the U.S. even followed the Geneva rules of war.

Originally posted by Warpspeed

Only Americans (and British) troops are being attacked by insurgents because you have invaded their country and are attacking them.

Depends on where the Austrailian troops are deployed.

We are guests there and we are not fired upon either by the US or by the insurgents. We make damned sure there is no friendly fire from either side by telling both the US command, and the insurgents where we are, what we plan to do, and when.

Okay you believe that being Austrailian makes you protected from violence.

The reason why there have been zero Australian combat deaths or casualties is because nobody is firing at us. Why can't you understand that.

Check again. I believe Austrailia has lost one already.

I don't think they give a dam if you are Australian or American, they would view you as an infidel and occupier.

Well, no not exactly. You see we are there as guests, not as an occupation force. If they ask us to leave we go. We are there for two reasons.

The first is to protect our embassy compound. The Aussie Embassy in Baghdad, and the Iraq embassy in Canberra are mainly concerned with trade between our two countries.

The second reason is purely to provide humanitarian aid, and assistance to the civilian population. A lot of this aid goes to the insurgents, so really we are helping them more than the US in this war.

They understand what we are doing, and we most certainly are not an invading or occupying force, but very welcome guests.

The problem is that Australian news crews, journalists, civilian aid workers, and civilian contractors are indistinguishable from Americans when driving along a public road. If they are not shot and killed outright, they may be taken prisoner. When that happens they more often than not are released once their Aussie identity is positively established.

Iraqis are sophisticated enough to understand that America and Britain are the enemy, and all other world nations are mostly sympathetic to their cause. That is why the US has never been able to make sanctions against Iraq stick, most nations are now firmly against the US.

While international aid is pouring into Iraq at an ever increasing rate, along with arms, ammunition, and expertise, the US is going to face an ever rising casualty rate. It will be Vietnam all over again.

Check again. I believe Australia has lost one already.

Actually we have lost three Uniformed Aussie personnel.

1/ A soldier lost control of his vehicle which crashed into a ditch and overturned. He was crushed to death instantly. He was not under fire at the time, simple driver error.

2/ An Australian aircrew member was on an exchange RAF/RAAF training assignment originally in Britain. He was aboard a British Hercules operating in northern Iraq when the aircraft crashed in heavy fog. There were no survivors.

3/ Quite recently an Australian soldier was shot in the head by his own 9mm pistol. He was sitting on his bunk back at base camp, and four of them were fooling around one evening. He pulled the trigger himself, not realizing there was a round still in the breech. A dumb shooting accident, rather surprising for a professional soldier, but that is how it was.

Three military deaths, not one even remotely combat related. Simply because there is no combat.

Only three deaths, and you can google all three easily enough with some key words.

Considering we have had around 600 personnel there for several years, a similarly sized military base back in Australia would quite probably have a similar accidental death rate, and even from fairly similar likely causes.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Earlybird
I heard about several liberal blogs that are actually happy
about this outcome for our troops.

So, what do you all think Amnesty International has to say
about this? NOTHING. That's right. NOTHING. As of this
writing they, the alleged leaders of human rights around the
world, say NOTHING. They continue to blather on about
non-existent torture at GITMO ... but REAL torture of
Americans merits nothing from them.

Sickening. They used to be such a cause for good. Now
they are nothing more than anti-American politicians and
definately NOT interested in human rights.

Ok so what could Amnesty International say about the dead mutilated troops?
I think they could say they could support the war, or that they don't support it. Of course if you were in charge and you said one of those things there would be HELL to pay because you would be stepping right into a political debate. Any way Amnesty International deals with prisoners, not corpses so officially it’s not really theirs to comment on.
What would you like them to say Flyers Fan? That we condemn this action? For what? Why should they unless they are asked? It's like saying I need to post a sign on my house saying I condemn terrorism every time it happens. It's this type of wacko thinking Flyer's fan that makes this war possible, no offence but are you part of it?. After all isn't making political statements (especially over popularist-predictable responses) the job of politicians? You would have a point though if Amnesty international was condoning terrorism; and if that's the case I dare you to make the case.

Actually Flyers Fan there are literally thousands of pictures that have not been released from Guantanamo or Abu Grab (one of the two; that place where that man had electrodes on his body). And I believe the U.S is in possession of many more pictures-stuff thanks to that “picture amnesty” they did recently. None of these will be made public; apparently because they provides fuel to the enemy, but I think the biggest reason is because it further undermines our troops moral, and by troops I don't just mean fighting men I mean politically pro war people too.
And depending on how you guess our democracy measures personal evidence; then conceivably every remaining pro war person has perhaps a bigger responsibility for the mess in Iraq than your average single soldier.
And it's one thing to be lied to; it’s another thing to promote the words of a liar. Of course from an anti Iraq war point of view we just think "ignorance must be bliss as if only they knew how big a liars they really are".

Americas is heading towards loosing more troops to the Iraq war (alone) than the number of people who died on 9/11. This of course does not include injuries (physical or mental). And we have little to show for it apart from the democratically appointed rule of Muslim fundamentalists, and the displacement of Iraq's secular Sunni minority.
Judging by the signs it looks like once we are gone from Iraq; it will become an Iranian satellite. And we have plenty of sheepish thinkers in my own country to thank for that!!!
Perhaps Flyers Fan we can at least agree that we live in a world of secret prisons, false news stories, and that we continue to ask ourselves why do people behave like immoral savages? (How you put that together is up to you).

Originally posted by Warpspeed

Well, no not exactly. You see we are there as guests, not as an occupation force. If they ask us to leave we go. We are there for two reasons.

They ask you to leave and you go? I don't remember the insurgents ever calling for humanitarian aid from Austrailia. I believe it was your Prime Minister. And I still believe they don't give a dam if you are Austrailian or not.

www.theage.com.au...

Australian troops suffered their first casualties in Iraq when three soldiers were injured in a massive car bomb attack on their military convoy in Baghdad.

In the first direct attack on Australia's defence forces in Iraq, a car bomb was set off as a convoy of three Australian vehicles drove by on a routine patrol 350 metres from the Australian embassy.

The three Australians were not seriously hurt, but three Iraqi bystanders were killed and several others, including young children, were wounded in the attack which occurred at 8am local time (1500 AEST).

One of the Australians received facial injuries, another was concussed, and the third was treated for minor abrasions and was released, the Australian Defence Force (ADF) said.

The three, members of the Darwin-based 2nd Cavalry Regiment, were treated in a nearby US medical facility and next of kin were being informed.

[edit on 21-6-2006 by deltaboy]

Well, no not exactly. You see we are there as guests, not as an occupation force. If they ask us to leave we go. We are there for two reasons.

Who asks you? The Government won't because as I have stated before we are there keeping them in power. If Coalition foprces weren't there the Government would crumble, we and you will be there indefinitely.

They understand what we are doing, and we most certainly are not an invading or occupying force, but very welcome guests.

I may sound quite rude but please get your fact right. Many Austrailian convoys have come under attack from Iraqis. ALthough no deaths have been recorded there definitely have been major attacks against Austrailian vehicles.

The most likely reason no deaths have occoured is because there are only 2000 Austrailian soldiers in Iraq. Compared with 214,000 US and 45,000 UK troops. I'm sure the vast difference in soldiers makes alot of difference.

And believe me if this is a new 'Vietnam' Austrailians will fell the force eventually.

Oh and I would also like to state humanitarian aid only began when the war was declared as over, I think you'll find Austrailia assisted in the attack on Iraq and Austrailian special forces were present and active in fightin along with British SAS soldiers. Please get your facts right.

So now we should believe that they didn'nt mean it. If someone caused your family to die then when you made an act of revenge it was an accident? People this is viet-nam II. When any one dies everyone must die. This is a concept of evil warfare, something the U.S. has never known or seemed to realize. There will be no victors.Insurgents come from somewhere and usually they are standing next to you. This zarquawi fellow said it exactly .no matter who is in power his evil faction wil gain nothing. Lack of U.S. presence means instant beheadings of interim government officials. The U.S. needs to leave that place. There is nothing to be gained. Political control of oil is not going to happen. Which by the way is another Bush-wack tatic.

Sure there has been some friendly fire, but one or two mistaken attacks do not make a war.

There have been plenty of US deaths from friendly American fire, quite a lot of them. Would you say that was a mutiny, deliberate, or just a mistake.

And there are not and never have been 2,000 Aussie troops in Iraq since Desert Storm. We have had a permanent force of 150 guarding the embassy compound. Later an additional 450 mobile infantry were sent out to provide security for the Japanese road convoys. Not sure when, but from memory that may have been about roughly a year ago.

Try and beat this up all you want, but we are not helping you guys with your war, and never have.

Political and public support here in Australia, is dead set against American foreign policy in Iraq. Sure you will find the odd US flag waving loony, but they are very few of them over here.

Originally posted by The Critic
So now we should believe that they didn'nt mean it. If someone caused your family to die then when you made an act of revenge it was an accident? People this is viet-nam II. When any one dies everyone must die. This is a concept of evil warfare, something the U.S. has never known or seemed to realize. There will be no victors.Insurgents come from somewhere and usually they are standing next to you. This zarquawi fellow said it exactly .no matter who is in power his evil faction wil gain nothing. Lack of U.S. presence means instant beheadings of interim government officials. The U.S. needs to leave that place. There is nothing to be gained. Political control of oil is not going to happen. Which by the way is another Bush-wack tatic.

Quite right.

The US should pull out and let the various factions sort it out between themselves. It will all settle down once some new despotic leader assumes control. That part of the world has always been like that, and it is none of our business really to meddle in local politics.

Warpspeed, if a guest carried guns in my house I might be a little wary and belligerent towards his presence wouldn't you? (Much less blew his brains out all over my rug like one of the KIA's you mentioned.) You are so deluded it makes me sick! No one invited the Austrailians to Iraq but my President; your pawn of a government, deal with it. Because like it or not you need us, and this is more angry and vehement than I think I have ever gotten on ATS.

Ok so we pull out, lets see how quickly the Aussie blood starts flowing. We're the target right now, lets see how quickly the back of your government breaks and pulls out of Iraq without us.

Originally posted by Baphomet79
Warpspeed, if a guest carried guns in my house I might be a little wary and belligerent towards his presence wouldn't you? (Much less blew his brains out all over my rug like one of the KIA's you mentioned.) You are so deluded it makes me sick! No one invited the Australians to Iraq but my President; your pawn of a government, deal with it. Because like it or not you need us, and this is more angry and vehement than I think I have ever gotten on ATS.

Ok so we pull out, lets see how quickly the Aussie blood starts flowing. We're the target right now, lets see how quickly the back of your government breaks and pulls out of Iraq without us.

If I was a guest in your house I would either come any way you wished, or I may politely decline your invitation, but the decision would be mine.

Your president has no say in it. We have always been a trade partner of Iraq, even when Saddam was in power. Our embassy was open for business then and still is. We don't give a rats ass what your president wants.

We are a free nation, we trade with whom we wish, we give humanitarian aid to whom we wish, and we only deploy troops internationally as part of a UN sanctioned joint multinational military operation. Your President is nothing to us. Just a very dangerous and untrustworthy grinning monkey.

If the situation in Iraq deteriorates we may very well close our embassy and bring all the troops home, as Japan have just decided to do. We are not at war there and have no intention of getting involved in one.

Don't ever think Australia admires America or is in some way indebted to you for anything. We are a free nation and do what is best for ourselves, we bow to no grinning monkey.

Welcome to the world of the USSR/Russia in dealing with Afghanistan and Chechnya. I have news for you folks...this has been going on over and over whenever ANYONE goes to war against Muslims! There are videos of beheadings *AND* torture of Russian soldiers, but up until now, they were hard to find. I would not invite anyone in this forum to go seek after these things, but they are there. This is the start of OUR dealings with these vermin but they have been doing this for a while.

As for the O.P. being suprised about them not being kept, don't be. I can promise you that at least photographs were taken if not video and they will be released sooner or later...either that, or tapes and or photos will be recovered from the bomb wreckage of these acts being done.

Do not fool yourselves for a minute thinking that we are alone in this. These scum have been beheading, torturing, and mutilating for centuries. It's just our turn and maybe we should make an example of these people...once and for all.

Warpspeed: explain 'facts' please.

Involvment in initial attacks

1.

The Australian contribution was also geographically dispersed, with the Australian forces forming part of larger US and British units rather than a concentrated Australian unit. No Australian personnel were killed, wounded or taken prisoner during the war.

Naval fighting

2.

Prior to the outbreak of war the Australian naval force in the Persian Gulf continued to enforce the sanctions against Iraq. These operations were conducted by boarding parties from the RAN warships and the AP-3 Orion patrol aircraft.

Upon the outbreak of war the RAN's focus shifted to supporting the coalition land forces and clearing the approaches to Iraqi ports. HMAS Anzac provided gunfire support to Royal Marines during fighting on the Al-Faw Peninsula and the Clearance Diving Team took part in clearing the approaches to Umm Qasr. Boarding operations continued during the war, and on 20 March boarding parties from the HMAS Kanimbla seized an Iraqi ship carrying 86 naval mines

I can provide photographic images if necessary


Austrailian covert missions

3.

On 11 April the SAS Squadron was concentrated to capture the Al Asad air base. While this base proved to be almost undefended, the Australian troops captured over 50 MiG jets and more than 7.9 million kilograms of explosives. After securing the air base the SAS were reinforced by 4 RAR and the IRR elements

Aircraft fighting

4.

No. 75 Squadron's initial role was to escort high-value Coalition aircraft such as tankers and AWACS aircraft. As it became clear that the Iraqi Air Force posed no threat, the role of No. 75 Squadron shifted to providing close air support to Coalition ground forces and air interdiction against Iraqi forces. These missions were initially flown in support of the US Army but the Squadron later switched to supporting the US Marines. As the Iraqi resistance crumbled the F/A-18s were increasingly tasked to provide 'shows of force' to encourage Iraqi forces to surrender. During the war No. 75 Squadron flew a total of 350 sorties and dropped 122 laser guided bombs.

Austrailian military numbers

5.

The Australian military contribution was relatively small, around 2000 personnel in total, which is also smaller than other Coalition commitments in proportional terms. Calculated on a military personnel per head of population basis, the Australian forces could have been seven times larger and still not have been equal to the per-capita commitments of either the United States or the United Kingdom.

6.

Australian forces committed to the conflict included include three Royal Australian Navy ships, 500 special forces troops, P-3 Orion patrol and C-130 Hercules transport aircraft, and RAAF 75 Squadron equipped with 14 F/A-18 Hornet fighters

LINK

[edit on 21-6-2006 by Knights]

The insurgents don't mind Australians being there, we are guests in the country

Quite hillarious really!! I get guests at mine all the time dropping bombs/ firing missles shooting at me and invite them in!

Do your research!!!

Every word of that is true, but that was Gulf war one, known as Desert Storm. We were there as part of a multinational force to evict Saddam from Kuwait.

When it ended everyone went home, including US troops.

Later, Bush decided he would start Gulf War two, known as "the war on terror". We at no time have had any part in that second war.

There I think lies the confusion. We certainly had 2,000 troops, ships, aircraft, special services units, the whole works. BUT NOT NOW.

When you are digging up this data, look at the dates.

Research Falluja, that was the biggest and most intense battle. There was not one Australian soldier involved in that. ZERO.

There is no longer any contact between Australian and US troops in Iraq except at the highest command level. I believe we have two Aussie staff officers permanently stationed at US military headquarters. Their only purpose is information transfer to guarantee no mistakes from friendly fire. So far there have not been any accidents, so the system is working.

Originally posted by bodrul
if the US doesnt follow it you really think insurgents would bother?

Do you really think that there'd be a single insurgent alive if the US wasn't following it?

Can anyone actually imagine what'd be going on if the US acted the same way as the insurgents?

anychance we could expect another Haditha where us forces indiscriminately killed (well almost) a entire family in a revenge attack

Most assuredly, you can expect it, if our soldiers are going to be captured, tortured, mutilated, and summarily executed. Most assuredly.

smokenmirrors
"the insurgency" are in fact Islamofacists

I find it unconvincing that all the insurgents are islamofascists. There are going to be secular Baathists in there, along with a smattering of 'patriots'.

The reason why there have been zero Australian combat deaths or casualties is because nobody is firing at us. Why can't you understand that.

I could care less as to why the aussies haven't been attacked. Remove the US and Britian and it will be your citizen-soldiers who are grabbed, dragged to a house, mutilated, videotapped, etc etc.

You make this sound like some glorious battle.

And what, pray tell, did I say that indicates that?

There is no valid reason for the US to even be there

It is not up to an australian as to what the US does in terms of foreign policy.

Please please look at the link I provided. You can see it states 2003!

Originally posted by Knights

The insurgents don't mind Australians being there, we are guests in the country

Quite hillarious really!! I get guests at mine all the time dropping bombs/ firing missles shooting at me and invite them in!

Do your research!!!

You STILL don't get it ??? They are not firing at us, if they had been, we would probably have scores of fatalities by now. So far ZERO Australian combat fatalities.

It is we that are laughing. The 2,500 dead Americans ar not going to laugh ever again. What a waste of life.

Originally posted by Knights
Please please look at the link I provided. You can see it states 2003!

Yes it was a long year 2003. So what ? You need to look AFTER 2003.

Try and find something in 2004, 2005, or 2006

Try and find one single combat mission, one single battle, where Aussies were involved.

We have no heavy weapons, no tanks, no artillery, no air cover. not a very good army, but quite sufficient for convoy escort when there is no enemy.

The insurgents could easily wipe us out in a week if they wanted to, but the don't.