The real problem for The United States is not Bush...

The problem is the system and the peoples lack of involvement.

The System

A two-party system is a form of party system where two major political parties dominate the voting in nearly all elections. As a result, all, or nearly all, elected offices end up being held by candidates endorsed by one of the major parties.
en.wikipedia.org...

The Democratic and Republican partys are both rife with corruption. They lobby for business intrests and not for the intrests of the people. Im not saying that everyone in the partys are currupt, but many of the ones in government hav self intrests at heart and dont give a damn about the people.

These two partys have major influence over the media (Fox, CNN ect) and thats why we dont hear any real news unless you watch C-Span or PBS. You only hear highly politicized political trivial nonsense that is spoon fed to the masses that creates the polarized invrioment that keeps any real progress from happning.

Our supreme court judges allow laws that are unconstitutional to stand. Our Congress fails to remove these judges, and our congress fails to impeach the President for knowingly misleading the country to war.

Our Congress has allowed the government to reach its highest levels of debt ever with no end in sight and no answer to fix the problem.

I know this isnt part of the system that im talking about but, The pentagon lost 2 TRILLION+ dollars (yes.. thas a T)

The People


The people just dont take action. Every 4 years they think they are doing something because they vote for 1 of 2 canadates for president, and not that many people even do that.

Even fewer vote for the members of congress so no wonder corruption has gotten as big as it is. We let it happen.

My question is: How do we let this "Open" Conspircy happen? How do we fix it? How do we get people to pay attention and take real action? The people need to bring the Democrats and Republicans down and we need to do it now!

Our founding father would be uphauled if they saw the state America was in during 21st century.




[edit on 19-6-2006 by Tasketo]

[edit on 20-6-2006 by Tasketo]

That is very true....I have also heard there is a loophole in the system where no third party candidate, even with majority votes, can ever take office. does anyone else know anything about this?

Props for starting this thread

I don't like President Bush, but John Kerry and Al Gore weren't exactly prizes themselves. Neither party is superior over the other, and neither is truly concerned with helping Americans so long as it can prove that the other side is hurting Americans. The Republicans propose something that is just not a good idea, the Democrats run around and scream about violation of liberties without doing anything. It's a flawed system

Tasketo, you are very observant and seem to have a great head on your shoulders considering the position you are taking in your claim.

I feel that this is exactly the point we should be looking at. It is so easy for someone to put the blame on one person or party rather then the overall comunity, even though it seems as though the latter is more desearving of the blame on reflection. I feel that the government continues to be corrupt in that there is a set system in place in which if someone places the blame on the entire community, they are labeled as anti-american without even a second glance. They are not given the respect and attention because their claims are interpreted in such a way, that the person who is so deeply concerned with their "believed" personal party of preference and its insured success in being dominant over the other, they become completely blind to what is really happening, and who should really be blamed.

As a personal answer to your question i believe that the way we "can" try to combat this, or what we "should" do in order to right this corruption, is exactly what you are doing. Talk about it with people get your thoughts out in the open and seen by as many people as you can and maybe you will open up the eyes of others who will in turn do just as you do. Remember in order to change a society one must first change himself.

good topic by the way however i think this might turn into a flame war very quickly.

Great thread. Seems more and more people are waking up to the myth of 'we the people' having a choice as to who our government is.

Left, right, demo or lib makes no difference. Whoever you chose you lose because the rich elites/banks are still in control.

We are seeing the result of a highly contagious disease, known as capitalism...

The problem is the people of this country, and I am not going to sit here and say that I am any differnt. Hell I like driving around in my 350z and watching my cable television and spending money on credit that I dont have...dont we all?

This government has us entertained with all of our shiny toys and keeps us by the balls with our wants and and thinking we need our wants. True American values have been lost because everyone wants to get thier piece of the pie.

First off we need to realize that the people sitting in washington work for us! We are thier employer! But we must work as a group in order for things to change, which sorry to say, will never happen. As long as we keep buying our SUVs, talking on our cell phones and buying crap we dont need, we are funding and feeding the beast who is out for world domination.

Face it people we are digging our own grave.

The point I am trying to make is that the government needs us a lot more then we need them, and if you really sit down and think about the more that statment makes sense.

At least to me...



By the way this is only my opinion which prolly doesnt mean #

Dont rip on me to bad...You smart mother #ers you...

Haha Peace and much love

First off, I love your avatar ANOK. But secondly:

Originally posted by ANOK
We are seeing the result of a highly contagious disease, known as capitalism...

I think the economic and political systems mirror each other. The problem exists in the corruption and greed of those running the system, not necessarily the systems themselves.

Originally posted by freetheknight
First off, I love your avatar ANOK. But secondly:
I think the economic and political systems mirror each other. The problem exists in the corruption and greed of those running the system, not necessarily the systems themselves.

First off, thank you!

You're right about the corruption and greed. But capitalism feeds that greed and corruption. Why have a system that can be used that way? Capitalism is not good for the majority, only the few who have the power to control it or exploit it, the minority.

It is used as a tool to control and exploit the poor.

The only reason the poor cling on to it, is the carrot and stick, the dream of being rich yourself. Chances of that are pretty slim and unrealistic. We could have a system that feeds our need, not our greed. There are alternatives, and I don't mean communism.

Capitalism causes war.
Capitalism causes poverty.
Capitalism causes starving millions.

Some reading if you are interested...

www.conservativenannystate.org...
flag.blackened.net...
flag.blackened.net...

[edit on 20/6/2006 by ANOK]

Originally posted by captinofcats
i believe that the way we "can" try to combat this, or what we "should" do in order to right this corruption, is exactly what you are doing. Talk about it with people get your thoughts out in the open and seen by as many people as you can and maybe you will open up the eyes of others who will in turn do just as you do.

I agree.

But how doses one do this? How do you get your voice heard? How do you get people to take action? And most importantly, what action(s) should be taken?

What action should be taken?

1. Get your voice heard?... OK...some people hear and agree with you, then what? Where do you go from there? The masses will still live in ignorance and inaction. You cant get your voice heard by the masses unless you can get on television and have a very intresting or well promoted program. Chances of that happning with out sufficient funds are zero. So... what can you do if you cant be heard by enough people to start the momentum?

However if one were to actually accomplish getting a tv station, change wouldnt be that far away, all you would have to do is just point out all the asinine and corrupt things that members of Congress and state legislatures do, and encourage people to vote them out. But even so, new partys would be needed to fill the void.

We need C-Span like station that will report on the actions of both houses and individuals members of congress and point out anything that is remotely corrupt or asinine. And most imporantly, this station would need to have no political agenda at all behind it other than to inform the people and get them to take action.

Then, God willingly, the people would form new partys, local partys to keep corruption from happening on a national level. Then truely we would have a working democracy.... I think.

But the real question is... how would you go about pushing for this? Get celebrity endorsement? John Stewart/Steve colbert? Get Puff Daddy to change his motto from "vote or die" to "vote these people out and form and vote in your own local partys"?

Please share ideas... I know this might not be the best idea out there, but if you have a better one, please post it.


Then we can see what we can do about it. There needs to be a political awakening in America. Maby it can start here on ATS.



[edit on 20-6-2006 by Tasketo]

I agree both parties are the same. They both have the same agenda and its not for the people.

What would happen if no one voted? What then? Is there a masterplan in place for such an action from the fed-up Americans? Just curious.

Couldn't agree with you more. I wouldn't call myself an "avid" reader of political books, but I've read more than most people, and I've noticed that, regardless of the slant, politics seems to be nothing more than character assassination, circular logic, and he said/she said. The only reason our country is so "polarized" is not because people have such polar-opposite beliefs, but because they are unwilling to think for themselves. Being a Democrat means you believe in abortion rights, gay marriage, and free speech over security period. Being a Republican means you are pro-life, against gay marriage, and value security over free speech period. American politics offers a perfect dichotomy where people can pick their views like their sports teams and scream just as loud without any thought as to why they believe what they believe. Meanwhile, issues that concern everyone like domestic spying, Constitutional rights, and the United States' geopolitical interactions with other countries fall by the wayside.

Social contact theory needs to be revised. The government does not work by the consent of the governed. The government works because the people don't care.

Originally posted by Tasketo
My question is: How do we let this "Open" Conspircy happen? How do we fix it? How do we get people to pay attention and take real action? The people need to bring the Democrats and Republicans down and we need to do it now!

It comes down to education. Our fore-fathers knew it. Democracy cannot function unless the population is educated. And I don't mean educated about the evils of the two current ruling parties. I mean educated in how to think logically for themselves. The public school system does not promote this because analytical thinkers are difficult to control. Unfortunately the State controls the education system and they too want a docile, easy to control population. So we are caught in a Catch-22, we must educate the population, but the gov't is in charge of doing that and we can't join up with them without becoming a vile democrat or republican who we are trying to oppose! ARGH! I don't know the solution, but I think this is one of the roots of the problem.

Vas

This is where our friends, MoveOn and the DNC come in. (DNC is Democratic National Commitee - The Democratic Party, basically). These guys are the cause that the loved PBS and NPR stations are stil alive, the 50 - state plan, and more.

From Vasilis Azoth
It comes down to education. Our fore-fathers knew it. Democracy cannot function unless the population is educated. And I don't mean educated about the evils of the two current ruling parties. I mean educated in how to think logically for themselves. The public school system does not promote this because analytical thinkers are difficult to control. Unfortunately the State controls the education system and they too want a docile, easy to control population. So we are caught in a Catch-22, we must educate the population, but the gov't is in charge of doing that and we can't join up with them without becoming a vile democrat or republican who we are trying to oppose! ARGH! I don't know the solution, but I think this is one of the roots of the problem.

The solution is to privatize the education system, obviously. Since the government will tailor education to its own interests, obviously it cannot be trusted to properly educate people. Therefore education must be taken away from the .gov.


[edit on 6/23/2006 by BeefotronX]

Everyone has brought up a nice list of reasons why Bush isnt the problem with the USA. The general consensus seems to be that both political parties are nothing more than the same brand of corruption. Both distancing themselves from the general public only to broadcast through controlled media.

I have no trouble believing this is true, but ultimately aren't we the ones that vote these people in who are nothing but a byproduct of what our values stand for? Both republicans and democrats are born and raised in a culture which is corrupt. Both are trying to reach some political goal but using the mask of "democrat" or "republican". The point is this, and sadly, that human nature is almost mutullay conjoined to corruption which stems from a nature greed to survive and reproduce. We as a society, culture and community act as one entity when it comes to the same principal. Isn't this why we have religious conflicts like the Palestinian-Jewish conflict in the Middle Ease and genocide in Darfur?

Ludacris, you make a good point about greed. But I believe that greed is taught rather than innate. If you look around you can find relatively poor people who are basically happy living quietly with their families. On the other hand, you can find people with exorbitant wealth who are unhappy and constantly grasping for more. The top 1% in this country went from owning one third of the nation's wealth prior to Reagan to owning over half of the wealth currently. And there is a drive for more, more more.

When you believe that life's problems can be solved with that 350Z or new Benz you will find that the cure will be short-lived. The problem for the rest of us is they're forced to squeezthe tube from the bottom at this point. Wages have dropped, jobs are gone, health care is lost, etc., while worker productivity continues to rise to combat lost wages.

It's a class war we're in now. It's less about race than wealth. Immigration is the red herring for the masses. Get the people focused on something other than the debacle in Iraq or the state of the (dis)Union. Deregulation has failed - again - as it did in the '20's. When Huey Long came along after the first destruction of New Orleans by hurricane and woke up the people, FDR had to pick up his chant for change because the people demanded it. Long went from the state's electricity regulator in 1927 to governor by goading the people into action against the elite. Of course they killed him for it in 1935. But they'll have a hard time killing us all. Let's get it on.

I recommend a book I just finished to all. "Armed Madhouse" by Greg Palast. It's a great read.

Originally posted by seattlelaw
Ludacris, you make a good point about greed. But I believe that greed is taught rather than innate. If you look around you can find relatively poor people who are basically happy living quietly with their families.

It's a tough question to answer; whether greed is taught or innate. Saying there are happy poor families doesn't quite answer the question. Can't greedy people be happy at the same time? Just becasue a family is poor and willing to settle for that doesn't neccesarily mean they aren't greedy. I am sure that family does what ever it can to better themselves. Point is: everyone will always try and strive to perfect on the situation in which they find themselves. Unless of course you reach what would be a "perfect situation". Mind you,that is a whole debate unto itself. Would you or someone else settle for a certain lifestyle knowing you can improve it? I hardly doubt it. Isn't that what keeps us going? Isn't that the basis for motivation and self confidence? Aren't we always looking to do better? Aren't we ultimetely willing to do anything for our own good and that of our families? If all these are true then greed has to be innate. Isn't it the driving force behind us all?

I am not trying to suggest everyone will go to extremes, like murder, but it seems to lead some people in that direction. A perfect example is Adolf Hitler.

Think about sports for a second. Competition among a group of people. Isn't that the most rudimentary form of greed and lust to succeed?

COMPETITON and GREED

Good point/question.

We are a society that worhips competition and respects greed when it is the predecessor to success. Greed which is not successful is shunned. Greed without profit is whining. But greed is ultimately destructive. Greed rejects the long term value that derives from community effort in exchange for short term profit taking. The stock market since the early 1980's is an example of this phenomenon.

But nothing significant was ever produced by an individual without significant contribution from others. This is why the elite rely upon the masses as community for their lofty station. The good in our world which is the product of humanity is a communal effort. What is presently occurring (as has happened before) is that the tiny percentage of humans with the capability (derived from political power) of skimming most of the cream from the top for themselves is doing so.

The greedy are taking the profit derived by community effort away from the community. Rather than stoke the community's creative energy by feeding it with the majority of the profit, they choose to starve the community of it's profit leading to disillusionment and, ultimately, the collapse of the community. In our case that will happen at some point whether it's from China refusing to continue to purchase US Treasury Bonds or the removal of some other artificial support for our community.

They understand full well that the bill will come due at some future point. They don't care. They're willing to rig the system temporarily to amass as much wealth as possible before the collapse of the community. Then they will (through their global corpus) simply move on to skim the cream from the next productive community. India? China? Malaysia?

Now, to return to your premise or question, humanity seems to offer both types historically. We see examples of unbridled greed as well as unhoped for generosity. IMO this is why past legislatures made regulation of industry a significant aspect of our laws over the past 80 or so years. From the sweat-shops at the turn of the century to the self-dealing by the brokers, the legislature has seen evil in the greedy faces of those with the power to undermine safe working conditions or steal from unsuspecting individuals or even ginormous teacher's retirement funds.

I've read and believe that we will not evolve as a species until we come to understand that we are all one. It is the idea of separation which leads to greed and murder. The concept that I can steal from you or murder you and profit from that in some way is what keeps us as a species from taking the next step. No one would be greedy if everyone felt that he/she had enough. There is enough, but a small percentage of humanity (1%) refuses to share the wealth and has the political power and will to keep it and even take more. The tolerance of the people has been tested before. The outcome is always the same.

I stopped voting for the major parties in 2000. After that election I felt even more justified for not trusting either of the main parties and to be frank since I didn't agree with Bush or Gore nor Kerry in 04 I can say I don't have a bias and be real about it. There are so many people that claim they are being honest but tend to back a main party. THey really just want a piece of the pie. Since a minority of the voting population that didn't have their votes spoiled decided who took office and the Supreme Court decided how to count votes nothing but regression and repression has occured in America. I have watched people literally fail to discern the real issues of the day and go along to get along in a "leave it to beaver" kind of manner that spells nothing but future pain. Too much blindness will make light when cast upon these dark main forces a very painful correction much like the dot.com correction in 1999, we are due for a dot.gov correction some day soon. It will result when ordinary people take to the streets of WDC over the next year and a half. The amount of change will be history making over the next two years if even it just shifts slightly to the left, it will illuminate a darkness that prefers to remain hidden and I'm more excited for change now than at any point over the last 5 years.

What percentage of the population can't vote at all?
From immigration status alone that number in my former town was 65%.
Add to this the number of people given felonies for drug possession, that number was some percentage of 750,000 last year, or 10 million in the past decade for cannabis alone.
There are 11 million illegal mexicans in the united states, that does not include all other illegal ethnics.

Keep adding up the numbers of people who can't vote, subtract from the total population and you will get a better picture of why the system is made so that corruption can foster.

Now add to the fact the clinton signed law that allows the government to infilitrate and distrupt any political organization on the mere suspicion of illegal activity. Can you guess one illegal activity that any single member of any political organization might commit that will give the government the reason to walk in and destroy any hope for change at the drop of a dime? Let me give you a hint, there were 750,000 Americans arrested for it last year and 10 million arrested in the past decade.