Fun and games with UK's big brother

"BBC security correspondent Gordon Corera said it was being examined closely for any clues on the 7 July attacks, in which three Tube trains and a bus were bombed.

Counter-terrorism sources said they were not treating the messages as conclusive proof that the al-Qaeda leadership directly ordered - rather than simply inspired - the attacks, he said. "

So, strike two - interesting video I'll admit, but all it proves is that he was a muslim with some rather perverted ideology who was vocal enough to associate himself in terms of his ideology with the islamist movement and with known terrorists. You have yet to prove he actually was involved in the bombings.

Now would you please respond to my earlier requests to view the REAMS of testimonies I gave you? And also to state your own position in no uncertain terms so that I can fulfil YOUR request to present evidence to counter your view? So far I'm a little in the dark as to what your view is.

Also, if you flat refuse to look at the link I gave you because you have an aversion to alex jones, here are some of the links to the individual testimonies, but don't say I didn't warn you that there is a LOT there, and digging out the excerpts relevant to my arguments would be a whole lot easier if you just started by looking at the excerpts on the infowars summary page and then followed the links through there onto the individual full articles, but here goes;

www.timesonline.co.uk...

"Twenty seconds after the train started, there was a massive blast — really, really loud. Outside, sparks and flames burnt up the side of the carriage."
JACK LINTON

"Seconds after the train pulled out, there was a huge bang, then a flash of light"
YVONNE MADUEKE

www.guardian.co.uk...

"The first thing I knew I saw silver travelling through the air, which was glass, and a yellow flash,"
MICHAEL HENNING

One regular commuter on the packed Piccadilly line tube train said they instinctively knew a bomb had gone off when the train drew slowly to a halt after a blinding flash and loud bang.

"We were coming out of King's Cross and there was a really big bang, a big, bright flash of light and loads of black smoke started to pour into the carriage,"
TOM CURRY

news.bbc.co.uk...

"Just out of Edgware Road there was this yellowish flash"
JOHN TULLOCH

news.independent.co.uk...

The victims' wounds suggested that the explosives, which were "not heavy but powerful", had been placed on the ground, perhaps underneath seats.

source link

DC Andy Hayman: Was not able to say how the devices had been detonated but confirmed that each device on the trains was placed on floor of a carriage, and on the bus a device was placed on the floor or seats.

www.guardian.co.uk...

At the centre of the carriage he fell through a hole and dangled above the live rail. ..... He said a seriously injured commuter called Stan who had fallen through another hole.

(continued...)

[edit on 6/21/2006 by 12m8keall2c]

Mod Edit: Excessive Bolding.

[edit on 21/6/2006 by Mirthful Me]

Mod Edit: No Quote – Please Review This Link.

Mod Edit: External Source Tags – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 21/6/2006 by Mirthful Me]

(continued)

edition.cnn.com...

'He said seconds after leaving Kings Cross station, there was a "large bang," and people were "physically ejected" from their seats. There were "flashes of light on the side of the tube carriage." "Then smoke was coming down the tunnel. Nobody would go out of that exit. No one would go out of the other exit because, as I understand it, there's a bomb in the middle of the carriage."'
ANGELO POWER

www.timesonline.co.uk...

"She was trapped and there wasn't much left of her leg. The chap next to her had lost his leg and there was a woman to their left who was on her back trapped in the metal, which had twisted up through the middle of the carriage. The roof was still on, but the lining of the carriage had been blown off. The sides had also come off and there was a big hole in the floor."
LIZZIE KENWORTHY

www.guardian.co.uk...

'One gentleman told me the floor of the train had blown up.'

Other witnesses also reported a huge hole being torn in the floor of the carriage, and said one of the men who died appeared to have fallen through the gap.'

"The tiles on the floor of my carriage suddenly shot up."
ANITA KINSELLEY

news.bbc.co.uk...

The window behind me had exploded in, part of the ceiling was on the floor and there was a large hole in the floor.
CHRIS STONES

She came straight to me and helped lift the doors that were on top of me then helped me up, took my hand and walked me through the first carriage where the manholes in the carriage were blown out
DANNY BELSTEN

Also, here are the links to some audio/visual files for testimony which were also listed on the page you refused to look at. Maybe you'll listen to them now that you don't have to go via Alex Jones' page (hehas no input on these I assure you - they are simply clips from mainstream media hosted on his site - I hope that's not TOO offensive to you and that you'll look at/listen to them:

Michael Henning on BBC - www.infowars.net...

Chris Randall on Channel 4 - www.infowars.net...

The Guardian's Mark Honigsbaum after interviewing survivors - www.infowars.net...

Collectively, these all seem to support my contentions, do they not?

Anyone else with an opinion?


PS - I am new to all this so I'm no sure how you quote external sources here - if any of the links I have listed does not correspond to the "relevant quote" listed below it, please forgive me as it may be that in copying and pasting between three different app's I have somewhere made a mistake - do let me know if this is the case, but hey, YOU drove me to it, Knights!


Fulcanelli



Mod Note: Quoting on ATS – Please Review This Link.
Mod Note: External Source Tags – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 6/21/2006 by 12m8keall2c]

Mod Edit: Removed Excessive Bolding, Fixed External Quotes.

[edit on 21/6/2006 by Mirthful Me]

Hey all - I've just been filled in on how to correctly quote external sources (thanks to alienanderson!) so I'm gonna have my work cut out for the next few minutes editing my last few posts to keep them in line with the regs - apologies if I'm a bit slow in replying coz im gonna be editing for a little while.

See y'all in a bit

Fulcanelli

it is not, as you seem to have implied, simply Alex Jones ranting in the usual way he does. It's simply a convenient page from which to get as many eyewitness testimonies as possible from the above sources, and the fact that these testimonies appear on infowars or anywhere else, conspiracy related or otherwise, has nothing at all to do with the veracity of these sources.

Quite right and I apologise, the sources are all valid and quite interesting. The following spring to mind.

That morning I got on the front of the train, which was closest to the stairs, and stood next to the bomber, Mohammad Sidique Khan. I looked at him, as you do. He seemed quite calm. Nothing, in retrospect, made me think: "This guy's got a bomb." He looked at me, and as he did so he put his hand inside his rucksack, looked at me again, looked away, and pulled back his hand.

Last night, there were persistent claims that the attack was the work of a suicide bomber; some witnesses said they saw a man on the top deck acting strangely and rummaging around in his backpack immediately before the blast.

Oh and we can't forget Mr. Lait

"I remember an Asian guy, there was a white guy with tracksuit trousers and a baseball cap, and there were two old ladies sitting opposite me," he said.

All the quotation are from the same site but each quotation has been enlarged to the full story. Many of the reports seem to have been significantly reduced to enthrall conspiracy 'buffs'. The quote from a survivor actually mentioning he fact he saw the bomber, I feel, further reinforces my views.

all I see and hear empirically on that video is a fanatical asian mouthing off at the west in general and defining himself as a "soldier" in the "battle" against the west, something that can be heard being voiced by many a misguided muslim fundamentalist youth in several mosques in this country

Yes but not every fanatical Muslim blows up a train full of people now do they? The fact that 'YOU will taste the reality of the situation' being spoken by a 'soldier' in a 'battle' sounds fairly determined to me. And why would he take the time to record such a video if he didn't intend to kill. If he killed himself on the train his message wouldn't be as clear. Record a video and the message is bound to get across.

followed by a smooth transition to discussion of KNOWN terrorists Osama bin Laden and Ayman al Zwahiri. ON the tape, it is admitted that it is unknown when or where the tape was made, and in the article it is stated in no uncertain terms that...

As I have stated above, I fully believe the video doesn't have to be dated or sourced to be able to identify that that is the bomber and that is his suicide note with his message. I certinaly wouldn't tape myself declaring war on a race/ creed without having any intention of following it up because I would know of the circumstances which would be inflicted upon me. If I were to die, I couldn't think of a better idea of getting my message across.

Knights,

Not sure if you noticed, but the first external quote you made in your last post was from a gentleman named Danny Biddle, who is among those I described as being witnesses who have invalidated their own testimony by changing their story several times. The conflicting testimonies from Mr. Biddle are viewable here:

www.infowars.net...

For your second external source in that last post, could you provide a link please, so I can view it in its entirety and make comment? Thanks

And as for your third external quote, I believe I have addressed that point adequately already, but here is my rebuttal to that point again:

Originally posted by fulcanelli

Bruce Lait stated that there was nobody standing anywhere near where the explosion happened and the resulting hole appeared in the carriage, and no bag either. The fact that he mentions the presence of an asian guy (as well as two old ladies and a white man) on the carriage is of no relevance at all on this point.

Not to mention Bruce Lait's testimony and many others I have listed that state in no uncertain terms that the impressions of hese people amount to the observation that the bomb was UNDER the train. Added to which is the data I have mentioned in passing but not yet referenced (don't worry, I will) that indicates that the four people in question COULD NOT HAVE TAKEN THE TRAINS ON THE ROUTES WE ARE TOLD THEY TOOK.

Originally posted by Knights

Yes but not every fanatical Muslim blows up a train full of people now do they? The fact that 'YOU will taste the reality of the situation' being spoken by a 'soldier' in a 'battle' sounds fairly determined to me. And why would he take the time to record such a video if he didn't intend to kill. If he killed himself on the train his message wouldn't be as clear. Record a video and the message is bound to get across.

Again, here you make the ASSUMPTION that it was they who blew up the train, conveniently sidestepping the arguments to the contrary above and, I repeat once more, that NOT A SINGLE PIECE of conclusive evidence has been presented to implicate any of the four men definitively.

Originally posted by Knights

As I have stated above, I fully believe the video doesn't have to be dated or sourced to be able to identify that that is the bomber and that is his suicide note with his message. I certinaly wouldn't tape myself declaring war on a race/ creed without having any intention of following it up because I would know of the circumstances which would be inflicted upon me. If I were to die, I couldn't think of a better idea of getting my message across.

Conjecture. Sheer conjecture. SHOW US (and more importantly, the police) THE EVIDENCE. It is contingent upon you to prove that these were the men who carried out the bombing. In order to do so, you must

a) prove that the explosions came from INSIDE not UNDER the carriages in refutation of the eyewitness testimonies and evidence to the contrary listed so far

b) prove that the supposed bombers had used TATP as the explosive, again in contradiction to all the evidence listed (and the nature of TATP itself) being contrary to that THEORY as well as assertions made early on that the explosive used was MILITARY GRADE (as is FAR more likely - eg. RDX or plastique), not the entropic explosive peroxide TATP.

c) prove that the individuals actually had the capability to take the route we are told they took (I shall, when I get back, post evidence to contradict that aspect of the story too) and were actually ON the carriages when they exploded - again in contradiction to the CREDIBLE (the ones who don't change their story each time it's told) eyewitnesses above

Anyways, I'm off for a bit (mate's birthday) but will most likely be back later on.

Please keep this discussion going guys, I think we're getting somewhere important now.


Fulcanelli


[edit on 21-6-2006 by fulcanelli]

Sorry to interject, but just wanted to post my take on 7/7, based on my memories of that day

The day it happened, I didn't get an immediate feeling that it was like 9/11

Let me clarify...

On 9/11, I thought there was something fishy going on when the towers collapsed straight down, much like a controlled demolition

However, on 7/7 I was watching the live news reports and it all felt real enough to me - i.e. a genuine incident as opposed to a false flag operation

The later news reports on the behaviour of the alleged bombers made me wonder if they did indeed carry out the attacks, but not as they planned - perhaps they thought they were on a mission and were intending to leave bombs on public transport and setting off timers, but in actual fact (by design or accident) they literally blew themselves up as soon as they activated the bomb mechanism

My main reason for thinking this at the time was the reported absence of 'Allah Akbar' type chanting which, as I understand it, is commonplace amongst suicide bombers

Perhaps it was faulty or shoddy mechanisms, but I think it more likely their controller planned it that way - 'hey boys, plant these bombs and then scarper' whilst all along know that they would be hailed as the first UK Suicide Bombers on home soil

Sorry to be so vague and have no links to back this up, but I just wanted to get this idea that they were 'set up' in some way out there while it was on my mind

Thanks to this thread, I will now be taking a much more detailed look into 7/7

Again fulcanelli you're long on self-important statements of your opinion as facts and very short on evidence.

They are not facts, they're just your opinions dressed up with some extraneous stuff you learnt at college.

TATP is relatively unstable - anyone consulting the various 'how to make a bomb' sites (not posting links for obvious reasons) can check that for themselves. To state it's impossible to make a bomb that would be detonated by the merest knock is just plain wrong.

Please provide links that state there was extensive burning of the bomb site / victims to back up your claim about TATP explosions.

Do you have any statements from credible wintesses to support your 'under the train theory'? - a dance instructor doesn't strike me as someone with extensive experience of the results of explosions.

Please provide all the evidence you keep promising to give - for example (among so so many) I'd love to know how the bombers couldn't possibly be on the trains that blew up.

Has it ever occurred to you that the massed ranks of investigative journalists in the UK have failed to find all this evidence you claim to have. Why is that? Perhaps they're not as intelligent / dedicated / enlightened as you? Oh no of course it must be the D notices!!

IF the UK or other state forces had been behind the murder of 56 commuters and there was evidence to support it no end of D notices would be sufficient to stop it being published. To date no credible sources have made such a claim.

BTW I've met Shayler and he's hardly a credible source for the current state of the weather let alone uncovering a massive conspiracy.

You have yet to apologise for the racist slur you threw at me despite the fact that all I did was disagree with you. You've continued to attack me long after I decided to let you carry on with your little fantasy posts.

Make the allegation again and I'll complain to the mods about you again - it's all in the FAQ's

This contstant hiding behind your race to justify your wild claims and attacking anyone who disagrees with you as racists is just pathetic - Ever heard of Ali G? Any idea what the joke might be?

PS what did you get the 'warn' for?

Originally posted by fulcanelli
Not sure if you noticed, but the first external quote you made in your last post was from a gentleman named Danny Biddle, who is among those I described as being witnesses who have invalidated their own testimony by changing their story several times. The conflicting testimonies from Mr. Biddle are viewable here:

www.infowars.net...

Yes you are correct, I was quoting a Mr. Biddle. Your link although interesting still changes nothing in my eyes. The consistent element in each of the sources is he saw Khan pull a cord in his rucksack and then the train exploded. That factor remains solid.

I do not feel the story is any less valid because he has 3-4 different reports on his distance to Khan.

For your second external source in that last post, could you provide a link please, so I can view it in its entirety and make comment? Thanks

www.infowars.net...

Not to mention Bruce Lait's testimony and many others I have listed that state in no uncertain terms that the impressions of hese people amount to the observation that the bomb was UNDER the train.

Yes, several reports also state it could have easily been placed on the floor by a bomber/ detonated under a seat. Take Mr.Lait as an example (I know its like addind 2 and 2 and getting 10 but this is my theory on the hole in the floor scenario), he stated an Asian man was sitting accross from him, say he was a bomber the chances are his rucksack would be on the floor near him meaning the logical thing would be to ignite it on the floor and thus blowing a hole in the floor. As for the inward metal theory, that was from one sole source was it not?

Added to which is the data I have mentioned in passing but not yet referenced (don't worry, I will) that indicates that the four people in question COULD NOT HAVE TAKEN THE TRAINS ON THE ROUTES WE ARE TOLD THEY TOOK.

If you could provide full, consistent evidence and not just giving dots and drawing lines between them I will be more than happy to accept your version of events, until then I am still extremely focused on my argument, as you too most likely are.

Again, here you make the ASSUMPTION that it was they who blew up the train, conveniently sidestepping the arguments to the contrary above and, I repeat once more, that NOT A SINGLE PIECE of conclusive evidence has been presented to implicate any of the four men definitively.

Well it depends what you class as 'conclusive evidence'. Alot of information has been obtained 'suggesting' they were to blame, but again i'm sure you will suggest everyone is making assumptions based on lies. I don't think you will ever find the conclusive evidence you are looking for.

prove that the explosions came from INSIDE not UNDER the carriages in refutation of the eyewitness testimonies and evidence to the contrary listed so far

I completely refute your claim. Mr. Lait claimed the metal was twisted upwards, perhaps the force of the seat being ripped up created the hole upwards, IF this was the case. Many of your reports just mention the hole in the floor not the direction the metal was bent in.

I would also like your opinion on the fact that all bombers visited Pakistan shortly before the attacks in February 2005. Although there is no evidence claiming they were linked to al-Qaida while visiting, there is a high possibility (in my opinion). The teaching of bomb making and the such I feel is extremely likely and the fact that al-Qaida accepted responsibilty fails to surprise me.

prove that the individuals actually had the capability to take the route we are told they took (I shall, when I get back, post evidence to contradict that aspect of the story too)

Please do post the information, I am intrigued to read the credible evidence, I shall cross my fingers and await your return eagerly (In the hope the MI6 don't take you out for holding such 'evidence'!!).


[edit on 21-6-2006 by Knights]

[edit on 21-6-2006 by Knights]

[edit on 21-6-2006 by Knights]

Originally posted by Strangerous
Please provide all the evidence you keep promising to give - for example (among so so many) I'd love to know how the bombers couldn't possibly be on the trains that blew up.

This site provides evidence in the form of the train timetable for 7/7 www.financialoutrage.org.uk

It appears that the train that would have got the bombers to Kings Cross at the time stated in the official story did not run that day, and neither did the one after

There is a link to back it up Thameslink supplied 'Actual Train Times' as opposed to Original Timetable

I cannot comment at this point in time on the accuracy of this source as I have only begun my trawl through the various reports and eyewitness accounts on that fateful day, but it was linked to earlier in this thread

Originally posted by Strangerous
PS what did you get the 'warn' for?

And a quick tip - if you click on the 'warn' logo you'll be taken to the offending post that got the user a warning


[edit on 21/6/2006 by alienanderson]

That's a very,very wobbly site - Once I'd waded through all the masonic symbols and other whacko claims it's clear it doesn't provide the proof you or the site owner claims it does:

If the bombers hurried or Thameslink are giving times to the nearest minute (remarkably accurate for a UK train co!) it's perfectly possible.

They could be on the train by 7.25. by hurrying to save 31 seconds or it could have left @ 7.25.31 - this train would get them to KK @ 8.23.

Slender evidence for 'conclusive proof'

Originally posted by Strangerous
Slender evidence for 'conclusive proof'

Well the email from Thameslink may well be genuine, and the text above the timetables does read "Timetable info supplied by two separate sources at Thameslink & also verified by five 7/7 commuters" but I think I see what you mean; they would have had to have caught the 7:25 train arriving at Kings Cross 8:23 in order to fit in with the CCTV evidence - I wonder if there is any confirmation that they did?

I posted the link in good faith (I really am new to this whole subject) and I am looking forward to more discussion and debate of 7/7 that hopefully won't degenerate into the recent emotionally-charged slanging matches regarding all things 9/11

7/7 is not the entire focus of this thread, so I’ll be off now to check old ATS 7/7 threads in order to 'feed my head'

Absolutely, I appreciate that you provided the link in good faith - it's the site I have the issue with.

The only true inconstsitency is the police statement they got the train at 7.40 - this could easily be an assumption by the police seeing them arrive at KK on a timed CCTV image they just looked at the most-likely timetabled arrivals.

It certainly doesn't 'prove' as the site suggests, that it's an NWO / illuminati conspiracy - much more likely to be an assumption by a stressed policeman rushing to provide a statement for the press.

Regarding use of TATP.

From BBC Online:

Davinia Turrell, became known to millions across the world as "the woman in the mask" after being photographed clutching a surgical burns mask to her face as she fled the bombing near Edgware Road Tube station.

Ms Turrell could be entitled to £27,000 (level 18) for severe burns to her face or, if the burns had covered more than 25% of her body, £33,000 (level 19).

and from:
Center For Contemporary Conflict - Strategic Insights

At Chelsea and Westminster, there were four patients in the burn unit

Scientists gathered clues about the source of the explosion from the way objects have been deformed. There was an intense burning mark where the blast happened. From the levels of deformity, investigators determined out how much energy was released in the explosion. They also could tell from the residue what type of explosive was used. The source of the explosives may lead to the prevention of further attacks.

Yes I remember her of course.

Your quotes cite only 4 people (out of hundreds) in the burns unit. These burns could be from secondary accelerants carried by commuters (pefume, deodorants etc), a secondary accelerant contained in the bomb package, or lubricants on the train being sprayed onto hot metal (brakes etc)

Not conclusive proof it wasn't TATP

The four people in burns units probably means those with burns only. It could be the case that those with more severe injuries on top of burns went to intensive care etc.

No comment was made regarding the "intense burning mark where the blast happened.", as quoted by the second source. The same source makes no mention of TATP being recognised at the point of attack but that it was found in the bath tub in Leeds.

From the levels of deformity, investigators determined out how much energy was released in the explosion. They also could tell from the residue what type of explosive was used.

Most of the early claims about the type of explosive used were that it was of military grade. Only after TATP was found at the house in Leeds did this part of the official story change.

[edit on 22-6-2006 by uknumpty]

I'd agree with that and it certainly was strange that they were so specific about the compound. C'mon own up who immediately googled TATP to find out more? - I know I did.

I still don't see conclusive proof that it wasn't TATP or any other firm evidence the bombs weren't carried and set off by the 4 lads from Dewsbury, and I'm as cynical as they come.

Furry muff. I would also like to see CCTV footage of the Dewsbury 4 boarding the tube carriages and bus.

Originally posted by uknumpty
Furry muff. I would also like to see CCTV footage of the Dewsbury 4 boarding the tube carriages and bus.

Me too

* Pentagon 9/11 CCTV footage - seized and not released (except for two inconclusive clips)

* Diana Paris Crash - over 100 CCTV cameras on the route mysteriously all failed to work for the first time in history

Does anyone know the official reason(s) for the lack of footage on 7/7?

[edit on 22/6/2006 by alienanderson]

I'm interested in what you think of Mr. Biddles report of him actually being close and seeing the terrorist ignite the bomb in the same carriage as himself. Do you actually think he would stand up and deliberately lie about seeing a bomber? Highly unlikely in my eyes.

It basically appears to me you are overlooking various sources all indicating there were bombers present, even quoting one source and providing a shaky website as a possible counter attack. Being a conspiracy theorist, you have to draw a line between possible and impossible.. only looking at one side of the situation and dismissing others on pure opinion or a source or two seems quite ignorant. You are looking for one side to a story and i'm sure you are guaranteed to find a source or two for most things.. i'm more convinced now than I was previously, the official story is correct.

[edit on 22-6-2006 by Knights]

Originally posted by uknumpty
Furry muff. I would also like to see CCTV footage of the Dewsbury 4 boarding the tube carriages and bus.

You don't think all those cameras actually work do you? They're just there to give tourists a false sense of security

I have seen footage of the bus bomber getting on the bus. as for the other stuff Iagree it hasn't been published (to my knowledge) but I'm not aware of any requests from jounos etc for it under the FOIA.

If there was evidence of a false flag op don't you think Duncan Campbell, Pilger, Mark Thomas etc would have blown the whistle on it by now?