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@ISJ

There you go again. Practically every ridiculous misinterpretation of my words you have again treated me to this morning can be answered by actually READING what I have said, and not what you want it to say.

As far as proof of "arms dealing" - there's another example. Go look at what I said - I said they INVEST in the international arms industry, and this is an easily verifiable fact and I don't need to educate you on how to get hold of annual financial reports (I am under no obligation to educate you about anything - you've already shown all your openness to new trains of thought), but when you get hold of theirs (its available on request) you will see in black and white that amongst their investments include those made to arms manufacturing companies and subsidiaries, including BAE Systems, GKN, VT Group, Cobham and Smith Groups among others.

As for 99.99% of all charges levelled against people arrested under the new anti-terror laws being released without charge, I can prove this statistic far more than the ridiculous (and, frankly, stupid) assertion by you that 99% of terrorists are Muslim - remember when I challenged you on that? your response was of the order "I have no proof, no actual data to support those figures but it's a valid point anyway" ! How are we to take ANYTHING you say seriously when you quote figures and then after admitting them to be unfounded you state that they are valid anyway?
But here's MY argument for my figures. So far, upwards of 40,000 people have been arrested and far more than that detained without arrest under the new anti-terror legislation, and, so far, a grand total of less than four hundred have been incarcerated or deported as a result of this. Do the maths, if you can.

As for your other objections I really am tiring of having to spell everything out in crayon for you, so here is the gist;

1 - If you TRULY believe your government's intelligence services have no hand in international terrorism, you are not only wrong but dangerously naive - you still havent responded to my previous rebuttal concerning the case of the supposed mastermind of the 7/7 bombings being revealed to the Justice Dept. in the US as a MI6 asset. This is simply one example. There are ample more if you look. But you won't.

2 - There are NOT so many fake passport applications/fake passports out there so as to require a multi million pound initiative on the part of the government to verify applications and passports - UK passports are some of the most advanced in the world in terms of the verification technology used on them and in the infrastructure associated with their use, and the existing systems for identification and verification on passports have been adequate for nearly a decade to prevent the prevalence of fake passports from rising appreciably. Fake passports that can circumvent these controls run at a cost of over 2000 pounds and are NOT easy to come by, certainly not for the average asylum seeker. We can argue this point until we're both blue in the face but the bottom line is I find it far more likely that these biometric systems will be tied into the already biometrically enabled camera surveillance system. An excellent programme was aired on dispatches recently outlining all these issues. Download it.

3 - I am MORE than insinuating that the CIA is involved in terrorism. This is one of the few points I have made as a DEFINITIVE STATEMENT OF FACT. The fact that you have completely shut your eyes to the documented, public domain history of the CIA and countless testimonies over the decades from insiders and whistleblowers, as well as the reams of declassified documents that PROVE this only shows me how desperately you WANT to believe this is not the case. I pity your self-imposed ignorance. Also, if you need proof of Her Majesty's intelligence services being implicated in terrorism, further than the case I have menioned twice to you already that you have yet to make a reply to...

...perhaps you should look up a gentleman named David Shayler, former MI agent turned whistleblower and read through what he has to say and what he has had to suffer at the hands of the government for daring to speak out.

I tire of answering these vacuous gripes you have. Bottom line buddy - you and I won't agree, so if you don't like it, continue to post but you'll get no answer out of me until you post an objection which is reasonable and hasn't already been answered in my previous posts. How about you speak to my arguments and facts rather than trying so hard to shoot the messenger?

There are those here who can see through your rather transparent ad-hominem attacks, and you do yourself no favours by continuing with them.

FUlcanelli

Wow! some of you guys need to take a chill pill, all hes saying is that its amusing when he reaches into his bag that people acually look scared, wich is silly because he aint doing ANYTHING out of the odinary, NOTHING wrong. Thats it, nothing more. Now lets stop! and get back to the subject.

I think this thread might actually get somewhere if Mr.Fulcanelli doesnt get banned first

Originally posted by ANOK
You are trying to tell me white people were looked at just as suspicously as Middle Eastern looking people? C'mon what world do you live in?

Originally posted by Strangerous
Again for those who don't quite get it - everyone was regarded suspiciously after the bombs. If you wear a rucsac you'll get suspicious looks - if you're a dumb tourist and leave your bag and go and sit down you'll get spoken to and someone may tell you what they think of such stupidity.

It's not (and never was) restricted to people of colour apart from in the original poster's mind - but he sees everything as a race issue, it justifies his own prejudices.

Exactly! Strangeous's point it not only valid but is true.

At the time of 9/11 I was in sunny Epain, shocked and horrified holiday makers of all creeds were making there way back to England. We HAD to be throughily searched and all our bags were checked and all of own personal possesions/ carry on luggage HAD to be put in clear plastic bags!
I remember being looked at suspicisiouly by everybody in the same way as i was looking at everybody else suspicisiously.

It works both ways but then again "people like you" wont / fail to see more than one side of a discussion.

Originally posted by ANOK
But I guess if you have bought the govs fear tactics as gospel, then why should I expect you to see any other reality

But I guess you have bought the religious fear tactics as gospel, then why should I expect you to see any other reality

Originally posted by ISJ
Exactly! Strangeous's point it not only valid but is true.

At the time of 9/11 I was in sunny Epain, shocked and horrified holiday makers of all creeds were making there way back to England. We HAD to be throughily searched and all our bags were checked and all of own personal possesions/ carry on luggage HAD to be put in clear plastic bags!
I remember being looked at suspicisiouly by everybody in the same way as i was looking at everybody else suspicisiously.

It works both ways but then again "people like you" wont / fail to see more than one side of a discussion.

You have voted ISJ for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

I absolutely agree with every point which has been made. I think you have refrained from using personal and severe insults where others have branded people racist and hypocrites and thus showing your views in a professional manner.


Keep up the good work!

Mod Edit: Big Quote – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 20/6/2006 by Mirthful Me]

Originally posted by ISJ

Originally posted by fulcanelli
- as well as restructuring of application procedures for such things as passports to require mandatory fingerprinting & biometric face
scanning,

What you say is simply not true, the passport application needs to be tightened up as there are so many fraudulent passports / passport
applications, they are far to easily doctored / faked. If a form of biometric identification is required and a law is passed by democratic vote then it
will become mandatory.

Hang on mate, this is happening already. Go to the www.passport.gov.uk... website and you'll see that the ID Card Agency is already up and running.

Visit my thread ID Cards Compulsory in UK by 2010 - Official and you'll see that this has already become law - virtually UNDEMOCRATICALLY

Originally posted by ISJ

Originally posted by fulcanelli
combating this illusory terrorist threat from Al-CIA-da

Are you insinuating that the CIA is or is linked to a Terrorist organisiation - or is this another opinion of yours?

Not just fulcanell's opinion - the CIA funded the Taliban. Truth. Al Queda is an agency term for 'the database', simply meaning the computer files containing info on high level Arabic terrorists. Historically, it is not an official group. Bin Laden is a possible former CIA asset. Hence the reasonabily common term, 'Al-CIA-da' which has been bantered around for some time now.

Originally posted by ISJ

Originally posted by fulcanelli
identities, movements, activities and even the mental and emotional states of every single one of us are tracked and recorded at all times whether in
or out of a vehicle or building,

Simply not true, in major cities yes,

Yeah but, no but, yeah

Originally posted by ISJ

Originally posted by fulcanelli
record all your mobile 'phone and landline calls the second you use a "keyword", and send them to those lovely folks at the NSA over in "Crypto City"

I think its true to say that the telecom provider logs all calls from phones and would only divulge a logs or logs to an intelligence agency if specific
requests are made by police.

Keep up with current events. Illegal wiretapping is common practice for the NSA. I am sure they have 'arrangements' with UK intelligence services

Originally posted by ISJ

Originally posted by fulcanelli
datamining and profiling you to decide whether to ask MI6 to kidnap you, stick you on an unchartered "extraordinary rendition" flight to an Egyptian
or Israeli dungeon so their CIA trained "interrogators" can find out how much of a threat you really are to the establishment without running into
trouble from any pesky "human rights" laws.

Again where is your evidence?

Exactly what evidence do you need?
Have you heard of 'extraordinary rendition' or not in the media lately?

Anyways, England v Sweden World Cup is on directly so I'll finish later


[edit on 20/6/2006 by alienanderson]

Heh, and some here have DEFINED themselves as racist without any input from me whatsoever.

I will pull no punches with ANYONE who is stupid enough to do so, engages in casting aspersions at my family and CANNOT argue with my point. You have yet to fault my logic or speak to my rebuttals by argument. It's plain for all to see here who has been the victim of prejudice here, and clearly from the feedback I've received there are many more here who agree with me.

I wonder would you (by you, you know who you all are) have attacked me so vehemently on such a weak point of contention (a mere paragraph in a post of 4 parts) had I described myself as white anglo-saxon - oops, no, you wouldn't have, since you all only consider those with brown skin, bags and beards the threat. Might I just point out the DEPTH of your self contradictions; at one hand, you claim that ALL of us here in the UK are under equal suspicion regardless of colour (an absolutely RIDICULOUS thing to say) and on the other you have become offended by my being brown, bearded and carrying a rucksack BECAUSE BY DOING SO I AM IMITATING A SUICIDE BOMBER! Surely someone somewhere can see what's wrong with this picture?
Until you can all extract yourself from that little blunder, yes, YOU ARE PREJUDICED, and YOU have proven yourself as such, not me. I have made this point again and again and not ONCE have any of you been able to fault its logic. Also, you do yourselves no favours supporting strangerous when he makes ludicrous comments like "have you ever seen a white muslim? an irish terrorist" - WTF? And ISJ who delights in quoting figures like "99% of all terrorists are muslim" to back up his arguments that when challenged admits "no proof, no data to support the figures but it's a valid point anyway". Please give me a break.

So keep it going guys, it would seem that I have no more left to do here to hammer the final nail into the coffin of your detractions. Please, for the sake of all here, grow a sense of humour and a sense of proportion and strangerous, come back - I miss you, sweetie!

Fulcanelli

yeah fulcanelli 'go back to your own country' i didnt come to this forum to hear about you picking faults with our government.

note i said 'our' yes thats right, our NHS, our surveillance systems, our bbc, our benefit system, our transport system, our education. I get to call the shots about who uses them because after all i (well, we) played a very important part in making them, yep thats right it just appeared when us lot came around. And you definitely hate them.

great post keep up the good work dude, continue to hit the nerves of those pointless peasants.

alien and sal, thanks for being voices of reason here and the support.

This has all been extremely entertaining - shame we've been forced to digress somewhat from the original points of discussion but then you can't please everyone I guess.

Can't wait to post a nice long thread criticising yet more of the dearly held and largely illusory ideals some here on this island NEED to have challenged - for their own good. I honestly am a bit puzzled at exactly what people with such a seemingly unshakeably faith and belief in our government are doing here of all places, on a forum designed to be a place of rational discussion about the excesses and atrocities perpetrated by such organisations; it would be more comprehensible to me if these people showed the slightest inclination to openmindedness, but so far there has been little evidence of that. Ooh, I'm going to enjoy my next little piece an AWFUL lot!

Thanks again to all who keep it real

Fulcanelli

Oh yeah, and to all in the UK - COME ON ENGLAND!!!!

I'm off to watch the match now. See y'all in a bit

Fulcanelli, out.

Fulcanelli

I am very interested in your views on the various topics you have stated.

Please ignore the derogatory posts and continue with your discussion.

I thoroughly enjoy your literary style.

Originally posted by ISJ
I remember being looked at suspicisiouly by everybody in the same way as i was looking at everybody else suspicisiously.
It works both ways but then again "people like you" wont / fail to see more than one side of a discussion.

You just don't get it! Your argument is redicularse. I don't think you know the difference between racism on the street and fear/suspicion in a disaster aftermath.

We are not talking about being at an airport after your hols, we're talking about everyday life. Do people still look at you suspiciously, I doubt it....

And what 'people like me'? Pls don't hide anything, tell me what a 'person like me' is like. I'd love to learn something new about myself
Wow talk about a case of 'foot in mouth disease'. You expose your biased, prejudiced views with every post.

And what 'more than one side of the discussion'? There isn't another side. You have not presented another side. Just negative, ignorant, biased opinions exposing your lack of the grasp of reality. You opinion has been shaped by the media I'm sure you put all your faith in.

Fulcanelli is a citizen of the UK and can be mad at having to pay a tax on a tv or be pissed that he feels profiled.

He lives in a country that he can be mad at many things, but I bet you are glad you live in the UK; and not many countries around the world.

I bet I would check him out more on the Subway if he was riding it, as the London or Madrid bombs were an example that sticks in my mind; and what was the "look" I generally would look at. It doesn't mean it is right, but seems logical to me to asses any threat. And what was the threat on a past bombs?

Just like if someone said there was a racist, a terrorist, a drug addict, and an illegal immigrant all in a room together.

And the there was an African American, A Mexican-American, A European-American, and a Persian-American in the room.

How would you profile these people?

We all have prejudices and profile certain people. Racism and profiling isn't a problem just in the UK, it is a worldwide issue.


So keep on complaining about your government if you want, because you can.

If you want to change it, because you don't like it then vote, help in a political campaign, go to a peaceful protest, start a petition or run for offfice.

We all have certain prejudices against us. We can let them own us or free ourselves from them the best we can.

Originally posted by ISJ
Originally posted by ANOK
But I guess if you have bought the govs fear tactics as gospel, then why should I expect you to see any other reality

But I guess you have bought the religious fear tactics as gospel, then why should I expect you to see any other reality

WTF is that supposed to mean? I haven't bought anyones tactics, I just see reality as it is. I have no bias to any side, religeon, political ideology or race, thank you...

(well maybe I am a little biased against government, but that's another story...)


[edit on 20/6/2006 by ANOK]

Originally posted by sbob
If you want to change it, because you don't like it then vote, help in a political campaign, go to a peaceful protest, start a petition or run for offfice.

Yeah that works You won't change a thing like that I'm afraid. Unless you come from the right circles, and have the right attitude, you won't even get close to making a change by voting, peaceful protest or being in office.

People have been trying that for decades. Do you see any changes yet?
Things just keep getting worse, and will keep getting worse as long as we allow the rich elite to control the government. As long as people keep bowing to the system and won't sacrifice their comfortable lives to make a stand. Soon your life won't be that comfortable anymore, but then it will be too late.

You're Already Dead (warning explicit language)

[edit on 20/6/2006 by ANOK]

I don't see why this ridiculous off topic discussion is happening. Who cares about nationality or race. Every person no matter where they are from has the potential to do good or evil in their life. Give up this going back and forth about nothing. This bantering back and forth will never end. You are doing exactly what they want you to. They have you pitted against each other to keep you from getting anywhere in your quest to change this society for the better. We should all be questioning our governments. I don't understand how people can blindly follow political figures that they only know through the brainwash box (television). It is all an act.

We all need to give up this arguing over small childish things.

We need to come together and find ways to make this world a better place.

Originally posted by ISJ
Would you care to provide this discussion with proof of these claims of so called arms dealing of any British university

Reread the post. He said his Uni was an INVESTOR in arms dealers

Originally posted by ISJYou openly admit to at least once praying on the scared nature of the public at a time of mass histerior after a bombing
attack which didn't discriminate on its victims. Your opinions are that this was an "inside job" - i cannot see why a
government would want to kill its own public and create mass panic.

CHILL OUT with the remarks about previous actions on the tube... this is not what this thread is about. Focus on the other well presented comments

There are too many reasons to go into as to why any government would want to 'kill its own public and create mass panic' but there are plenty who would agree with this statement

'Fun with Big Brother' is an interesting tagline for a thread. It got all of us here didn't it?

If you think that the author deliberately goes out of his way to be perceived as a terrorist in his day to day life then you have misjudged his comments

I know when I was a youth I took great delight in freaking out yuppies whenever I could. Granted, the climate these days is markedly different but the author isn’t like some people you read in the media who would shout 'bomb' on a US flight and then get arrested - now that is dumb given present day paranoia