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I am a member of the two party system, a Republican; why does that make me wrong?

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posted on Jun, 17 2006 @ 09:47 AM
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Every op/ed I have become involved in has ultimately resulted in lectures from members that endorsing and following the concepts of either party is wrong, being deceived or down right stupid.

I am a Republican, a staunch supporter of Conservative values and the basic foundation of a smaller Federal Government and more State rights. I support President Bush, the war in Iraq and the Patriot act. I can do all of this and not invalidate my stand as a Conservative. I do not feel they conflict in anyway.
How can being a Moderate be any different than being a Democrat or a Republican? You are still standing firm for what it is that you believe is right and correct for the country. You still vehemently defend your positions on all the issues. (I know I have been involved in some of those defenses) Are you not still subscribing to a political party? Yet doing nothing to help repair the problems inherent in the two that we already have.
One can be a Republican and be against the current spending, a Democrat and still want to drill for oil in Alaska. In other words, you can be a member of a party and still have an opinion and able to think independently.

The only thing I have found with Moderates, is that they are predominantly Liberal and yet will not admit to that if you pulled their fingernails out. I have found that most of them say, “I was a Republican, but,” and go on to ultimately prove they are Liberal at heart. Is the Liberal label that distasteful? I have some great friends that freely admit to being Liberal and we get along just fine.

Those that speak so strongly against being part of a two party system, engage freely in criticisms against one side or the other. Mostly they support that with claims that they did the same thing when the other party was in power. Is Malcontent a political party?
I have been told that I am being deceived because I support my party. Why is it, that the only people that are being deceived are members of a party? Just because my beliefs follow the core beliefs of a political party does not make me susceptible to deception. Yet many on ATS would have me believe it so.
I have been told that because I endorse one particular party, that I am only furthering the problems in the system. Yet I have come to reevaluate my position on several specific issues because I became engaged in a valuable and informative discussion with certain members on here. These members were able to provide me with insight and opinions that gave me cause to change my opinion on several topics. Yet I am still a Republican.

Yes I am a Republican, a member of one of the two most powerful political parties currently active in this country. I am not deceived, or corrupt and I do have an opinion.


[edit on 18-6-2006 by UM_Gazz]




posted on Jun, 18 2006 @ 10:01 AM
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I haven’t seen where anyone has asserted that you are “wrong” for being a Republican, per se. But if they have, my advice is to buck up. Everybody gets called out and called ‘wrong’ here. Everyone gets labeled; we all get told we are sadly mistaken.

As far as I’ve read in your posts, the criticism isn’t that you are Republican though, it’s that you are perceived as feeding the division between the two dominant parties and insist that everyone else fit into one party or the other. That’s my beef, anyway.
A person can be a proud Republican without making Democrats the devil. And vice versa. But it’s something I rarely see today. The division, the extreme partisanship, the "football team" mentality is astounding and overwhelming from this outsider’s perspective.

Pick a Side
Choose a Team
You’re Either With Us or Against Us
There is No Middle Ground
Anti-Bush = Anti-American
Red State / Blue State



How can being a Moderate be any different than being a Democrat or a Republican? … Are you not still subscribing to a political party?


No, I am not. I am not now nor have I ever been, a member of any political party. I do not subscribe to any political party. Deal with that.
Furthermore, I denounce the 2-party system, because I believe it creates divisiveness (now more than ever) in the populace. Yes, I stand for my beliefs. Strongly and Proudly! But I don’t pick a team. And I’m quite proud of that. However, I don’t insist everyone be like me and refuse to choose a political party (although I think it would be nice.
)



I have been told that I am being deceived because I support my party. Why is it, that the only people that are being deceived are members of a party?


Because many believe that the 2 parties have the same corrupt goals. These people believe that picking a political party is like choosing between yellow1 and yellow2. They’re both yellow, the purpose, though is to divide the citizens for easier manageability, easier control and to get them more easily distracted and likely to fight against each other instead of examining the agenda of those in power. Many people believe this. That’s why.

You don’t have to believe what they say, but that’s why they’re saying it.

If you are a proud Republican, GO FOR IT! Be a proud Republican, but don’t tell me that I must pick a side, like the government is some sort of football rivalry, else be labeled a ‘liberal’, wishy-washy, a liberal in Moderate’s clothing or some other crap. I don’t even want to be a member of a political party. I hate sports!

If you demand the right to call yourself a proud Republican and not be called out for it, then get off my Kool-aid and let me say what I am and how proud I am of my beliefs. If you think people should choose one or the other, then you do that. I disagree. I think it’s dangerous and divisive for this country. So I’ll do what I believe in and I will not insist that you’re ‘not really a Republican, you’re just afraid of looking wimpy because you find there’s strength in numbers’ or some crap. You say what you are and I’ll respect that. But I get to say what I am.

Deal?



posted on Jun, 18 2006 @ 11:00 AM
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Touche'
and Deal BH.

I still think that change can only come from the inside though and being a part of a very small independent group that holds no chance of making any kind of a political impact in the near future is wasteful of your talents. (And you have great talents) (Didn't think I was going to roll over did you?)

Why not join a side and then begin making the changes that I agree are necessary within that particular party? Instead of stepping outside the "box" and proclaiming your ideals to the few thousand that hold with you?

Lets face it, for the next 20 or 30 years, the predominate voter group in the US is going in to their little box and either pull the lever they are familiar with, or vote by name recognition. The only way I see to educate and attempt reform is by reforming the party that best fits my personal agenda.
The republicans are far from perfect, but by going to the Meetings, local and state conventions, I can be heard and voice my opinion in front of (Maybe) enough people to begin to make a difference. I have not heard of a Moderate Convention and if you went to ours and proclaimed yourself a Moderate, no one would take you serious. At least not yet, not until there are enough out there to finally make an impact. I don't see that happening anytime soon.
I mean for GOODNESS sake, Fox had a thing on this morning talking about Jeb running for president! I support President Bush, BUT ENOUGH already!!! We have got to get in there and make people understand that this is NOT healthy and there has to be some kind of a change. Two Bush's are a plenty in my book, and I support them.

All I am saying is that change comes from the inside and there are a lot of people on here that could really contribute to change the system, (including you) yet will not be taken seriously in any political forum proclaiming themselves no part of the party.

Semper
(Fighting from within the system)



posted on Jun, 18 2006 @ 11:43 AM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
I still think that change can only come from the inside though and being a part of a very small independent group that holds no chance of making any kind of a political impact in the near future is wasteful of your talents.


I am part of a very big group that wants change in these United States. They don't have a name, other than "we, the people". Some are Democrat, some Republican, some Independent, Libertarian, and so on.



All I am saying is that change comes from the inside and there are a lot of people on here that could really contribute to change the system, (including you) yet will not be taken seriously in any political forum proclaiming themselves no part of the party.


I don't want to take on the task of changing the parties. I don't like the parties. I couldn't, in good conscience, join a party that wants to outlaw abortion or dictate marriage by a Constitutional Amendment. I couldn't, in good conscience, join a party that wants to outlaw or severely limit firearm ownership by the citizens or open the borders and provide amnesty to all who enter. I just couldn't support it.

Any more than I could join a church that handles snakes or protests soldiers' funerals... Any more than I would marry a man I didn't love for his money. I just can't.

I'm stubborn, I know.
But I've got to answer to me.



posted on Jun, 18 2006 @ 12:09 PM
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Darn it and I have money. HAHAHAHAHA

But I am originally from WV, so what's wrong with snake handling?


I see what your saying, but do you understand my position? Standing outside and protesting, no one is ever going to really listen. Being on the inside on the other hand, you get a chance to speak.

I understand your view, I just don't see that view making any real change in my lifetime.

Semper



posted on Jun, 18 2006 @ 12:20 PM
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For the record, since you are being open and all. I am a sustaining member of the republican national committee. Would you have guessed, would any one have "labeled" me that before I said such?

Yes, I registered as a republican and am a card carrying one at that.

But my political interests are very different from McCain for example, despite our difference of opinion. People of the same party can't agree on every thing, and it is no different for any other group/s.

Division via polarization = wasted utilization of time resources

Or

United we stand, the rest is not an option.



posted on Jun, 18 2006 @ 12:37 PM
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If you are a Republican Conservative and you believe something is wrong, it is your duty as it is of any citizen of either major party or other political parties to make it known. Tell your Congressional representative or Senator exactly what you are thinking. If you agree with what is happening, please elaborate. As a conservative I think massive budget deficits, heavy handed so called security as an industry is not right. I also think the Federal Reserve is of its own admission doing what others cannot do without violating either morals or legal principles. This debt machine has done nothing but drive needless inquisitions and wars.

I do not make ad hominem attacks, I look at the issues. By the same token, when something is going right you can guarantee I will compliment our leaders from an informed electorate perspective. You say you have no problem with the current leadership, but you do not say why. Going along to get along is one thing, but when current events and issues are so critical, and your sincere concept of public trust has been denied, you have to ask questions and find out why by all appearences things are okay or not okay. To just say you agree without saying why or explaining why to all contrary objective assessments things are agreeable, then you have ceased thoughtful examination of the informed electorate perspective. Your country needs you, tell it why you agree or disagree. It is the American way.

[edit on 18-6-2006 by SkipShipman]



posted on Jun, 18 2006 @ 02:16 PM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
I see what your saying, but do you understand my position?


Yes, I understand your position completely. I just disagree with it.

Interestingly, when I read your posts I get the feeling that your point of view is just so foreign to me that it's really kind of fascinating. I really mean that. It seems to me that you think that 'being on the inside' of a party puts you closer to the government somehow than I am (on the outside). I just don't see it that way.

My vote counts exactly the same as yours does. My money (should I choose to support a political candidate) would buy just as much influence. My voice is heard just as much as yours.

Am I missing something? What advantage do you have as a card-carrying Republican that I don't have? What added influence over the running of this country do you have that I do not? Do you think someone 'up there' is listening to you because you're signed up as a Republican?


Originally posted by ADVISOR
I am a sustaining member of the republican national committee. Would you have guessed, would any one have "labeled" me that before I said such?


That really surprises me! I'm afraid we can no longer be friends...




posted on Jun, 18 2006 @ 05:49 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by semperfortis
I see what your saying, but do you understand my position?


Yes, I understand your position completely. I just disagree with it.

Interestingly, when I read your posts I get the feeling that your point of view is just so foreign to me that it's really kind of fascinating. I really mean that. It seems to me that you think that 'being on the inside' of a party puts you closer to the government somehow than I am (on the outside). I just don't see it that way.

My vote counts exactly the same as yours does. My money (should I choose to support a political candidate) would buy just as much influence. My voice is heard just as much as yours.

Am I missing something? What advantage do you have as a card-carrying Republican that I don't have? What added influence over the running of this country do you have that I do not? Do you think someone 'up there' is listening to you because you're signed up as a Republican?


Originally posted by ADVISOR
I am a sustaining member of the republican national committee. Would you have guessed, would any one have "labeled" me that before I said such?


That really surprises me! I'm afraid we can no longer be friends...





Darn it!! I hate it when that happens!!


No what I am rambling on about, attempting to try and get out is that I go to any number of "Stumps", Conventions, Meetings etc. Prior to al of the Hubbabbulou we actually "push" one candidate or the other, in essence steering the party in a certain direction, in our small way. This you can not contribute to as an outsider. You would not be welcome there to speak, only to watch. As such, your voice would remain unheard at the critical time when the TRUE decisions are being made. Not about who runs of course, anyone can. Yet about who gets the money from the party to help with their campaign. And that is what really gets them elected. Now granted, it is only local and state elections, but that is where it has to start. Putting people in those positions, hoping that changes can be made for the better and those same changes "ripple" up to the top in time.

Sorry, dinner calling again,

Semper



posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 06:50 PM
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Originally posted by semperfortis

I am a member of the two party system, a Republican; why does that make me wrong?

[edit on 18-6-2006 by UM_Gazz]


Not wrong.

Naive and gullible as the dems, but not wrong.

Loyalties should be to the country, not party leadership or ideology.



posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 06:52 PM
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It doesn't make you wrong, but its just people are so opinionated, they dont see a middle ground anymore.

Oh and btw, its not a two party system. Theres many parties, all with a chance to have a political view. The Democrats and the Republicans (actually technically both the same party) have been purposefully purpertrating the idea of a two-party system so they can stay in power no matter what. They're both corrupt.



posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 07:25 PM
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Originally posted by semperfortisOne can be a Republican and be against the current spending, a Democrat and still want to drill for oil in Alaska. In other words, you can be a member of a party and still have an opinion and able to think independently.
[edit on 18-6-2006 by UM_Gazz]


Then why are "liberals" with a different opinion called traitors by the right and not just Independent thinkers. The terms "Bush Bashers" and liberals are used interchangeably.

I just recently saw a reprint of the old bumper sticker; "Love it or Leave it"

To think that liberals are somehow unpatriotic is not only stupid, it's mean.

BTW I'm a Republican. I don't have to follow the hate filled divisive policies my party has adopted. I can think independently.

The reason I say "hate filled" is because I have listened to Rush, Hannity, Savage and ORilley and imo they are "hate filled." They seem to be the spokes persons for the Conservatives.

[edit on 19-6-2006 by whaaa]

[edit on 19-6-2006 by whaaa]



posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 07:34 PM
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The problem is people don't seem to realize, as has been mentioned, the two parties are just two sides of the same coin. Whichever side you chose you lose.

If you think you can change anything from the inside you just join all the other naive people who thought the same. Has anything ever changed?
Are we better off now than we were. I'd say no, we have more poverty, more crime, more overbearing government, more wasted money, more unemployment, more fear.
The list goes on. Where are these people making changes from the inside?

Most changes come from outside. If it wasn't for people working on the outside with no political bias we would have had 1984 a hundred yrs ago.

Government working for the people is a myth, unless you are part of the rich elite.

It's easy to follow someone elses doctrine because it relieves you of the burden of having to really think for yourself. You always look for and agree with the position of the biased side you have decided to embrace, and anything outside of that is suspect no matter how much sense it makes.

As already mentioned by Benevolent, the whole concept of two parties is to devide into oposing ranks. The gov loves to devide us, makes us easier to control.
Giving someone a label makes it easier to control your thoughts and actions.
It makes your thoughts and actions more predictable, thus easier to manipulate and control.

I wish people would step back away from the party, drop the indoctrinated bias, and see it for what it really is. A control mechanism for the rich elites who really have the power, and use it to their own benefit.

You are not a tool of change you are a stick stuck in the mud that gets wiggled once in awhile. It takes 'outsiders' to pull that stick out and slap some sense into the world.

Supporting government takes away your power to make real change in your life and neighborhood. But we have become a world of self preservation, selfish demands to have more than your neighbor. A system based on ego and greed. A system based on fear of losing what you have to someone else. A system based on un-natural competition to keep some at the top of the pyramid scheme while those at the bottom get chided for asking for more.

It doesn't have to be that way. The world has enough resources for everyone to be satisfied. But for some reason some people feel they have the right to have more.
Feed your need, not your greed. Check your ego at the door, I'm not impressed by your big car and fancy house, no matter how hard you claim to have worked for it, someone else has suffered because of it.

It's a balance, someone gets rich someone else gets poor. Money isn't created it's re-distributed. Your profit is some ones elses loss.

Anyway getting a little away from the subject, even though I believe it's all related.

Those that wish to serve themselves don't really want change...Greed and fear are very easily manipulated emotions.

Think outside the box. There are more than two choices. Choices are unlimited, you just have to sense your own strength...



posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 08:48 PM
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semper, I hope you don't feel 'attacked' here. It's just that many people are starting to realize that the 2 party system isn't working and that the problems are systemic to the system, not the parties.


Originally posted by whaaa
BTW I'm a Republican.


:shk: My friends are droppin' like flies around here...




posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 09:11 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
semper, I hope you don't feel 'attacked' here. It's just that many people are starting to realize that the 2 party system isn't working and that the problems are systemic to the system, not the parties.


Originally posted by whaaa
BTW I'm a Republican.


:shk: My friends are droppin' like flies around here...

I'm neither a Republican or a Democrat. On some issues I'm very conservative on others liberal. I like to consider myself an independant. Of course, refusing to register as one or the other meant that I couldn't vote in the primary of my state which I felt was wrong. I go to college and work full time at the state pen. At the college I'm considered to be ultra-right wing but at work I'm considered a bleeding heart liberal when in reality I'm neither one. I understand the feeling of being attacked semper but I think what is really happening is politics is by it's nature an emotional topic and sometimes we all tend to get hot about issues near and dear. BH does this mean you and I can still be friends?
I'm sorry if I'm not being clear enough but I've worked to 16 hour shifts in a row and the mind isn't really functioning.

[edit on 19-6-2006 by gallopinghordes]



posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 09:40 PM
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Originally posted by gallopinghordes
BH does this mean you and I can still be friends?


I hope everyone knows that I'm totally kidding!


Everyone is my friend!



posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 10:29 PM
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NO, I do not feel attacked at all.

I value all of your opinions and I am the type of person that believes in a completely open mind. I can and have on many occasions changed my mind when presented with a good argument.

I will however support my position, but it is late, so I will wait till tomorrow when i have more time.

Thank you all for your input.

Semper

(BH, I still love ya)



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