Grand Jury Declines Cynthia McKinney Indictment

Originally posted by Aelita

I heard Taco Bell was hiring.

With all due respect...that's a bit much.

-O

[edit on 22-6-2006 by The Big O]

Originally quoted by Aelita

Excuse me, but the 9/11 conspiracies are discussed in other threads of this forum. The topic here, may I remind you, is that some uncivilized individual accosted a police officer and got away with it.

To Aelita:

This statement says it all about the attitudes of bias that are being thrown around concerning Ms. McKinney. How do you know after watching five minutes of TV that Ms. McKinney is "uncivilized"? Or is that your idea of Black people who express their opinions? Would you find Black people acceptable if they descended into the cant of "Yes Sir?" or "No Sir?"

The days of capitulating to the "Master" and the "Mistress" are over. And it is not being uncivilized for any Black person to speak their mind and act the way they please without the "pious" majority commenting on their behavior.

Based on your logic of the five minute judgement call, I'd have to assume you are being uncivilized by your statements. Not to mention beligerent in your responses.

To Semper:

Yes, civilians in the grand jury made the their feelings known on the case. As far as I know, that was a jury of her peers. Would you believe the ruling of the grand jury more if the cops were part of the jury?

I would never try to tap a cop on the chest with a cell phone, but a lot of leeway has to be given here. She swung around on impulse. She didn't do it out of animosity--as some people are led to believe. Would you tell me that if someone swung around on impulse after you touched their shoulder, you would perceive that as a hit? You would have to read the mind of the individual in order to get the intent. The Grand Jury did not find the intent there. However, the Police labor officials might think that there was an intent when there is none. That is why they are trying to push for ethics hearings.

And the witnesses that were there, obviously told what they saw. And the Grand Jury still decided not to indict Ms. McKinney. So what does that say about the witnesses? That they are stupid?

To the Big O: If people decided how politicians or other dignitaries acted by the way they dressed, then all we would have in Congress are "good looking" people who don't have an ounce of sense. Which would you rather have? A politician that dresses badly that knows the innerworkings of Congress? Or a politician that dresses well who doesn't know their way out of a paper bag?

You might as well vote with your feet if you choose your politicians on whether they wear Armani or not.



[edit on 22-6-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
To the Big O: If people decided how politicians or other dignitaries acted by the way they dressed, then all we would have in Congress are "good looking" people who don't have an ounce of sense. Which would you rather have? A politician that dresses badly that knows the innerworkings of Congress? Or a politician that dresses well who doesn't know their way out of a paper bag?

How someone dresses has no impact on how "good looking" they are. I don't think I ever said Cynthia was not attractive, actually I posted several pictures where I think she looks quite pretty.

And no, we wouldn't just have a bunch of good looking people on congress, or we already would by now. That's what TV is for, beautiful people. Politics are for politicians, and quite frankly most of them are moderately attractive at best.

I just don't understand this, how can someone who works in the real, professional, business world actually state that dressing like a slob, or like a 1980's music video, is okay? Seriously, where do you work? Even in a factory you are required, for the most part, to have a uniform and look professional. YOu may get dirty, but you still look the part. You couldn't jsut show up in cut offs and a wife beater. How would that look to customers who came into the shop? It'd look bad, which is why it doesn't happen.

Fact is, to be successful, you have to dress the part. That's the way it is. That doesn't mean you have to buy 2000.00 designer suits, or only designer labels, but it does mean you need to have outfits that look professional, be careful on the styles you choose, and be mindful of how your appearance effects how people percieve you.

Lets remove poltics from this argument for a moment. Take this scenario... you are in a board room trying to sell something to a CEO of a company. YOur product is very similar to your competitor, you have your advantages, they have theirs. You are dressed in a wrinkled suit, your hair is a mess, and you haven't shaved. Your competition has a nice suit on (nothing fancy, just black and properly pressed), their hair is styled (hell, if it's a guy he might even be bald), and they've shaved and/or put makeup on. Who do you think gets the sale?

Now, put poltics back in. Cynthia and Congresswoman Snow are in a room. They are both arguing for something to the floor of the house. Cynthia has on a lime green sport coat, and her hair is frazzled. Snow has on a generic looking navy blue coat, and her hair is styled but nothing fancy. Who do you think will be received better?

You can know the inner workings of Congress to your hearts content... but if no one is listening to you when you're on the floor, are you truly effective?

-O

Then, that is the problem of the receiver of the message, not the messenger.

The receiver obviously has "biases" that they can't deal with. And unless they deal with their own "biases" they will never listen to what Ms. McKinney or other Black people say unless it is politically sanctioned to do so.

Dr. Rice--on the other hand--dresses well. Heck. She even has Ferragamo shoes (we found that out when she was shopping for them while the people of Louisiana suffered in the Superdome, the Convention Center as well as on rooftops). But she still gets disrespect from the talk show pundits ("Aunt Jemima" and "C--n") and she was featured in a university question about holding a watermelon.

But, heck. She dresses like a fashion maven. And her hair is quite chemically treated--straightened to the nth degree.

It has to do with bias. And some people refuse to see the wheat from the chaff if they solely focus on looks.





[edit on 22-6-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
The receiver obviously has "biases" that they can't deal with.

What biases are you refering to? Skin color? I certainly hope not because that has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

You don't dress profesionally, it's going to effect how people receive you, period. Doesn't matter if you're black, white, asian, hispanic, or whatever else I'm leaving out.

-O

Originally quoted by The Big O

What biases are you refering to? Skin color? I certainly hope not because that has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

You don't dress profesionally, it's going to effect how people receive you, period. Doesn't matter if you're black, white, asian, hispanic, or whatever else I'm leaving out.

Yes, I am referring to skin color. Or else this would be like a conversation regarding Mr. Blackwell's list.

It always seems funny to me that people will try to attack what a person of color wears and equate that with the content of their character.

However, you in your posts did try to critically analyze the notions of dressing and professionalism. For that, you get kudos.

But this would not be an issue if Olympia Snowe (R.-Maine) had showed up in a paper sack and presented her findings to the Senate. And if it were, the conversants would be focusing on the way she dresses opposed to what has been said. However, the main point is, people would still listen to what she proposed--and know to separate that from the content of what she wears.

But for people of color, there is somehow this notion that what we wear dictates how intelligent or professional we are. There is a double standard here...one of which you have pointed out but in all your findings can't see.






[edit on 22-6-2006 by ceci2006]

Whatever... I'm over this thread. This has nothing to do with her color.

Maybe I'm ignorant and just assume people think like me, and are past archaic crap like that.

Talk to some people in Atlanta, people involved in poltics here... if I get a black person in her consituency to come on here and tell you that they think she caries herself improperly and dresses like someone from a bad Human Resources training tape, would that change your mind?

It might take me a bit, since I don't live downtown anymore, but I'm sure in a few days I could come up with something.

-O

Big O,

You can't win. Those of us that are successful in the real world, are painfully aware that your dress, your image says everything about how you will be treated. Those that are arguing that obviously have no such background.

Just look at the poster that address me. He actually stated that "She had no animosity." Like he was there and was testifying in person. HAHAHAHAHAHA

They also have no experience with Grand Juries. I do. A Lot. They are not there to prove anything and they are absolutely not the final word on the subject if the Prosecutors decide they are not. It is directly because of their sometimes Political and loony actions, that there is a valve for the DA to pursue prosecution.

Because the GJ did not pass the indictment, does in no way indicate her innocence.
Now that is a fact.

Semper

Originally posted by ceci2006
How do you know after watching five minutes of TV that Ms. McKinney is "uncivilized"? Or is that your idea of Black people who express their opinions? Would you find Black people acceptable if they descended into the cant of "Yes Sir?" or "No Sir?"

Oh, I love it. This is precious. Down to how you capitalized the word black.

Nowhere in my post, not in a single word, letter or punctuation mark, I ever mentioned my own skin color or that of Ms McKinney. You are trying, in a rather ruthless way, portray me as a racist despite me never having expessed an opinion concerning race. Although I appreciate the comical effect, I would also point out that this is an act of slander on your part. I couldn't care less if McKinney was black, semitransparent blue, or teal color, or white.

The days of capitulating to the "Master" and the "Mistress" are over.

What an astute observation! Carry on...

And it is not being uncivilized for any Black person to speak their mind and act the way they please without the "pious" majority commenting on their behavior.

Umm, sorry, I didn't get that "act as they please" part. Do you really mean that a black person should be exempt from the norms of law, common sense and civility? If she pleased to hit the cop with the cellphone, that was acceptable to you?

McKinney, in her cameo appearance on a talk show I saw, did not answer simple questions about the incident. She simply said that she is "different" (well maybe she is), and went on to congratulate herself on her valiant fight against special interests, and above all Halliburton. I don't like Halliburton any more than the next guy, but she came across as arrogant, unforthcoming and not trustworthy. I would certainly have said the same if she was any race, including White.



[edit on 22-6-2006 by Aelita]

Aelita and the Big O:

It is also funny that immediately when the discussion of "bias" is brought up that you immediately think that I am branding you as a racist. Only you are the master of your own consciences. And if it does trouble you, you may want to examine your feelings about racial bias. But, I am in no way saying anyone is racist.

However, there is a problem when people can piously give advice about others and remain absolved about their own character and attitudes. To bring up bias does not make anyone less intelligent in their comments. Bias happens. When someone mentions the manner of dress (especially when one has to look professional in a working situation)--that is called bias based on someone's preferences on clothing.

And yes, the bias that is placed on how someone dresses in this thread has to do with color. Until someone mentions a white politician who dresses badly and conducts themselves badly in Congress, then it will be fair across the board. But you solely focus on Ms. McKinney. So, the ball is in your court if you want to prove if you're fair or not.

But Aelita, from my five minute assessment of your second round of comments, you can also add snotty to the description of your writing. That makes your words even more uncivilized in the manner of debate.

But since you haven't done anything to discredit my assessment of your words being "beligerent", "uncivilized" and "snotty", I would probably think that your attitude permeates in this manner throughout everything you write. After all, it is easy to judge a book by its cover, isn't it?

Now isn't that the same attitude you practiced when assessing Ms. McKinney? And what you did radiates bias based on your preferences regardless of race.

And Big O, you can bring up anyone you like. It doesn't change the fact that a double standard exists between people of color and the majority when judging the content of character by the clothes they wear.


Semper,

You are right. A Grand Jury does not have the final say in a case. That part is true because there are always appeals that are being made either by the prosecution or the defense. However, I find it funny that when even witnesses and other aspects of evidence are being brought up in a court of law, that the decision not to indict is taken less seriously in this situation than in others.

And you didn't answer my question about whether you would believe the verdict if cops sat in the jury rather than civilians. Despite my ignorance about Grand Juries I still think it is a fair question to ask, isn't it?

Or better yet, educate us all. Explain how grand juries work so that we all will be better informed about the process. Especially take the time to elaborate upon guilt or innocence. After all, it may not be a fact anymore that a person is innocent until proven guilty. That is what you are trying to say, no?

What is so important about prosecuting Cynthia McKinney that one tosses the law out the window in order to supplicate their views?








[edit on 23-6-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
It is also funny that immediately when the discussion of "bias" is brought up that you immediately think that I am branding you as a racist.

You dragged the "bias" discussion in your reply to my post for no reason at all. I didn't comment on anything that was related to race in my original post. And you know that full well.

But, I am in no way saying anyone is racist.

Wait a sec, all out of the blue you send me this:

Or is that your idea of Black people who express their opinions? Would you find Black people acceptable if they descended into the cant of "Yes Sir?" or "No Sir?"

This unprovoked and rhetoric question clearly expresses your belief that I am somehow and to some degree racist. It probably makes you feel better.

When someone mentions the manner of dress (especially when one has to look professional in a working situation)--that is called bias based on someone's preferences on clothing.

Oh God. Read some comments above. Have you ever had a job somewhere where the dress code is "business"? Try to show up for work at an investment bank in low riding jeans and a tank top. Then you'll have plenty of reasons to cry that they are all racist for firing you. Seriously, try it. They are so biased, man.

Or, here is an easy one -- let's say, if you get a job at McDonalds, they will require you to wear a uniform bearing the McDee logo. Your manager will point out the manner of dress in this particular workplace. I'm sure you will insist on wearing something that looks better, and I'm sure you'll claim "bias" was the reason you were fired.




[edit on 23-6-2006 by Aelita]

I would really like to know how Cynthia McKinney is as a Representative. Does she do her job? Does she represent her constituents? Does she deserve the judgments against her professionalism?

It's not "fair" that we judge people's professionalism by what they wear and how they present themselves, but we do. When we go for a job interview, we want to appear to be professional because that's what the employer wants. So we dress nicely and shave or do our hair, etc.

It's not "right" that people get judged on their dress, their race, their gender, their appearance... BUT I believe it is fair to judge someone on their behavior. It's indicative of how they think, how much they respect other people, how stubborn they are, how well they can work with others and how they will do their job.

That's what I would like to know. How does she behave?

What bothers me about Cynthia McKinney is what I do know of her behavior. What bothers me most is that Cynthia makes everything about her race. It's one of my pet peeves when people do this. Or they make everything "because I'm a woman" or "because I'm ugly" or "because I'm old". People can't take criticism and insist on attributing it to something outside of their control instead of really hearing it and considering that maybe, just maybe there's some validity to it.

It's Because I'm Black!

Cynthia McKinney wants the very first thing we notice about her to be that she's black.
...
I do believe there is racism in this country. I believe it is insidious and often quite subtle which is the most disturbing kind. But I also believe there are those who capitalize on that for a personal agenda whether that be to get more attention or to flaunt a victimization they can't seem to live without. That's where Cynthia and her ilk come in. If Cynthia McKinney planned a picnic and it rained that day? She'd blame God for ruining her picnic because she's black.

I know this sounds like a harsh judgment, and it is, but I agree with it 100%. People taking advantage of existence of racism to somehow benefit and keep themselves in a victim position glean my very strongest judgment.

Originally posted by ceci2006
It is also funny that immediately when the discussion of "bias" is brought up that you immediately think that I am branding you as a racist.

I don't think I did any such thing.

By the way, you want to see a white person who looks like a jackass in congress I offer you Rosario DeLauro (also a member of my party).



She's almost laughed at on a daily basis.


-O

EDIT: screwed up posting the image stuff
[edit on 23-6-2006 by The Big O]

[edit on 23-6-2006 by The Big O]

Thank you Big O for being fair about pointing out other "bad dressers" in Congress. Ms. DeLauro always reminds me of a Vulcan (Star Trek, TOS). But the Connecticut Congresswoman isn't that bad of a politician. So, I think that you went a little far in your comments about her.

However, from me, you get props. What I am saying is that others on this board have not been fair in their comments regarding people of color.

I suggest you read the earlier threads (including the one by toelint) talking about the Georgia Congresswoman and test your theories out about "dressing" and "professionalism" and "color".

I wonder how a "psychotic with too many teeth" compares with "dressing and professionalism"?

Originally quoted by Aelita

Or, here is an easy one -- let's say, if you get a job at McDonalds, they will require you to wear a uniform bearing the McDee logo. Your manager will point out the manner of dress in this particular workplace. I'm sure you will insist on wearing something that looks better, and I'm sure you'll claim "bias" was the reason you were fired.

Like you really know what I'd do in a hypothetical situation regarding "bias" (your quotations). Using your term, "that's really precious".

Btw, my five minute assessment of your third set of comments to me radiates patronizing speech. Really. In a way, I learned from your experience of "judging" Ms. McKinney on television.

You may be on to something there.


P.S. Benevolent Heretic, I will get back to your question later on. What you asked is fair. And I would like to take time to answer what you requested.






[edit on 23-6-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
P.S. Benevolent Heretic, I will get back to your question later on. What you asked is fair. And I would like to take time to answer what you requested.

Is she your representative? I didn't know that. I was just asking anyone, not you in particular, but I'd love to hear from her constituents or anyone who knows how she does her job.

Originally posted by ceci2006
...test your theories out about "dressing" and "professionalism" and "color".

I wonder how a "psychotic with too many teeth" compares with "dressing and professionalism"?

I haven't once mentioned that her color has anything to do with professionalism and dressing. As a matter of fact, I've tried to remove that aspect from my argument all together.

I also don't remember mentioning anything about her teeth, let alone being "psychotic with too many teeth." Please let me know if you are attributing those comments to me. I have worked very hard on this threat to not have to stoop to saying things like that.

In addition, I believe on several occasions I have mentioned that when she wants to, she can look quite nice, and by that I do mean above average looking and darn near pretty.

In regard to her abilities as a politician, I wounldn't rate her as bad or good, but instead someone who's not living up to their potential. As someone who has met her, and been able to hear her speak, she is quite good on the podium when she wants to be. However, when shes in front of the camera she can also seem bossy and arrogant, then again what poltician doesn't.

Without going point for point on her congressional record, I am not aware of anything "bad" she's tried to pass. Then again, I don't know of any pork she's tried to get for the Atlanta area either, so view that as you want.

She has been voted out of offive once, beaten by Denise Majette, so that may give you an indication of how her consituents view her. However, that was a very unique local election here, and if you are interested there is quite a bit on the internet about it. It must be noted, when Denise decided not to run, Cynthia did win in the primary with enough votes to avoid a run off, and she won her seat back after that against her competition quite handidly.

In the greater Atlanta area she is viewed as a bit of a lighting rod. There is no middle gournd with her and she is very compasionate for her causes, of which I commend her. However, as can be seen with the cop thing, on occasion her words and actions are questionable, and due to her personality she tends to be looked at and scrutenized more harshly than say, a "first time" offender or something, if you can catch what I'm saying.

I'm interested to see the full details of ceci2006 report, and they'll probably go more indepth as to her record and recent activities. I'd do that, but since they said they're already doing so I'll let them take care of that. Cynthia's wikipedia entry is also pretty good and keeps a pretty god distance from and type of judgement, but by no means is it perfect.

-O

Originally posted by ceci2006
Like you really know what I'd do in a hypothetical situation regarding "bias" (your quotations). Using your term, "that's really precious".

Well, it's quite obvious that you are not the one to just succumb to discrimination and be content with "bias", are you? So if you perceive "bias" directed at you, would you keep quiet? Probably not. That's part "B" of my logic here.

Here's part "A", what you wrote with regards to dress code:

When someone mentions the manner of dress (especially when one has to look professional in a working situation)--that is called bias based on someone's preferences on clothing.

You basically have a choice to comply with dress code, in which case there is no problem. If you choose to ignore the dress code, you'll be sanctioned, and according to quote form your post (above) we'd be witnessing the specter of "bias". If you add A+B, logically we'd be witnessing a complete "bias trip" on your part, with the works.

Originally quoted by the Big O


I haven't once mentioned that her color has anything to do with professionalism and dressing. As a matter of fact, I've tried to remove that aspect from my argument all together.

I also don't remember mentioning anything about her teeth, let alone being "psychotic with too many teeth." Please let me know if you are attributing those comments to me. I have worked very hard on this threat to not have to stoop to saying things like that.

In addition, I believe on several occasions I have mentioned that when she wants to, she can look quite nice, and by that I do mean above average looking and darn near pretty.

No, Big O. I was not referring to any of your comments. In the other threads concerning Ms. McKinney, there have been posters who have described her as being "nuts", "with a low I.Q.", "an idiot", "having a bad attitude", as well as a "psychotic with too many teeth".

I'm sorry that you thought I was directing it to you. But I wasn't. I just wanted you to see that in other threads, people pretty much used the bias of "dressing" and comingled it with race.

In fact, click on the link and read it for yourself. You will see the drama that went down before when this story about Ms. McKinney broke.

Be rest assured that I hold no ill will towards you. For the most part, you have been pretty fair in your assessment of Ms. McKinney. My issue, however, is that there is a segment of the country that does judge people racially by how they dress. And because of that, there are some people of color who can wear a business suit or a nice dress and still have some White people cross to the other side of the street and clutch their purses as they walk by.

And there are many stories of this happening. It happens on the street. It happens in stores. It happens in elevators.

It even has happened to Oprah when she tried to shop at an exclusive store in New York.

There is a double standard that occurs. A person of color could own a Fortune 500 company in America. However, when he or she walks down the street whether in a jogging suit or haute couture, he or she still gets discriminated against because of the old stereotypes equating darker skin with crime. People look past the money and go for the old stereotypes of color when relating to dress. It sadly occurs. Ask other people of color around you. I'm sure you'd get some war stories.

To Benevolent Heretic:

No, I am not a constituent of Ms. McKinney. But, I still would like to address your questions because they do outline some important issues. I am gathering my information and will post it later.




[edit on 23-6-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
No, Big O. I was not referring to any of your comments... I'm sorry that you thought I was directing it to you. But I wasn't.

Good enough for me and no offense taken.

Originally posted by ceci2006
And because of that, there are some people of color who can wear a business suit or a nice dress and still have some White people cross the other street and clutch their purses as they walk by.

There isn't too much I can do about that other than not associate with those people and do my best to raise my kids (I don't have any right now) the way my parents did, and that's not to put any type of importance into the color of ones skin, or the place where they came from (be it rich or poor), but to respect them if they have pride in their background and heritage.

Originally posted by ceci2006
It even has happened to Oprah when she tried to shop at an exclusive store in New York.

Granted, I think the event you were refering to was actually in England, but regardless, point taken.

-O

EDIT: Corrected some quote code errors.


[edit on 23-6-2006 by The Big O]

[edit on 23-6-2006 by The Big O]

I thank you for your comments, Big O. I am gratified that you are sensitive to the nature of this issue because a lot of people are not. It's not saying that the others who don't care are wrong; it's just a fact.

However, about Ms. Winfrey and the store discrimination, it looks like we were both wrong. I found the article about the story on CNN's site. It happened in Paris:

Luxury store apologizes to Oprah
Luxury store Hermes on Wednesday apologized to Oprah Winfrey for turning her away last week, saying that its Paris store was closed to set up for a public relations event when the talk show host stopped by.

"Hermes regrets not having been able to accommodate Ms. Winfrey and her team and to provide her with the service and care that Hermes strives to provide to each and every one of its customers worldwide," the store said in a statement.

"Hermes apologizes for any offense taken due to such circumstances."

Stories like these continue to convince me that it isn't about the clothes when people use bias. And in the case of Ms. McKinney, clothes or hairstyle did not play a part in her harrassment by the Capitol Police.


[edit on 23-6-2006 by ceci2006]