ATS is COINTELPRO: Put to Rest for Good!

The lead-up to this post is quite a long story...and starts with the big nasty thread which Springer has deemed "slurpo". It's a long story, but I'll try to make it short.

As a result of that 6 month investigation (don't ask why, we're just gluttons for punishment) - we started our own small forum to explore the "Slurpo" matter since it was banned here and no other site was seriously or critically exploring every issue.

As part of this investigation, we interviewed Dr. Webre, of ICIS (Institute for Cooperation in Space) - as just a sidebar of the investigation. During & After the interview, a particularly nasty individual (whom we call Veektor) interfered with our interview process by telling Dr. Webre that he wasted his time doing an interview with us (such a small silly forum) and he should not allow us to air the interview.

After getting wind of this - Springer sprang to our aid and offered to help us with bandwidth in order to stream the interview. This was an extremely generous offer - and so I told Dr. Webre that, thanks to ATS, we very much have the ability to offer his interview to a very large public audience.

Once again, Veektor the Evil, interfered and forwarded Dr. Webre an Article written by none other than LK-J - yes, the illustrious and intelligent researcher herself. (That's called sarcasm).

The article outlines how since ATS tried to shut down the posting of a 9/11 article on her website - taken directly off of ATS - for copyright infringement reasons - and so ATS must be COINTELPRO.

This is an allegation I'm sure most of you have seen before (many times) - most new users read such allegations elsewhere and bring it here in a new thread. I don't want to start yet another one of those threads - however I haven's seen this issue properly put to rest in any other thread (or if it was, I missed it) - other than moderators saying they know nothing about such a "program" and it's a very silly concept.

I'd like to ask for a reply from Simon Gray, Springer, & S.O. (and whoever else was involved in the very first days of ATS's founding)?

I'm going to post a quick writeup concerning probably why a belief would persist about ATS being cointelpro. This is at least a good starting point to put the theory to rest (at least for those who are willing to think for themselves). Such a program would not necessarily be with the knowledge of moderators. Only those who started and run the intel program would be aware of the project. The easiest way to kill such a theory, once and for all, is just to provide the true story about the very first fledgling days of ATS.

So Springer, S.O., Simon - would such an article or summary be possible?

-Ry
Admin edit: removed "her" full name for google purposes.

[edit on 6-15-2006 by Springer]

What is Cointelpro?

From PBS.org:

From John Adams' Alien and Sedition Acts to the Cold War and Joseph McCarthy, civil liberties and national security have had a delicate and troubled relationship in American history. Notorious among these is the case of the domestic surveillance program run by the FBI between 1956 and 1971 (after the censure of Joseph McCarthy by the Senate) under the name COINTELPRO (counterintelligence program). COINTELPRO was a secret FBI program designed to monitor and "neutralize" domestic groups deemed by the FBI to be a danger to national security. Such groups included anti-war groups and civil rights groups and individuals like Martin Luther King, Jr. and even Eleanor Roosevelt.

COINTELPRO and the Church Commission:

The domestic surveillance programs of COINTELPRO were only brought to light in early 1970s after a Senate Committee was created to investigate the FBI and the involvement of other intelligence agencies in political repression. The Committee was named for its Chairman, Idaho Senator Frank Church. It's findings were voluminous and, to many, worrying..

Under the aegis of COINTELPRO, the FBI kept files on a great number of Americans and investigated the NAACP for 25 years. The FBI admitted that it had burglarized political groups to gain information on their activities.

In other words, pre-70's COINTELPRO was the FBI "infiltrating" groups which they deemed a threat to national security. If a group was meeting for any reason, and could be suspected of being a "covert" communist meeting, the FBI would do whatever it wanted to obtain information on their activities - including burglarize those groups.

In the 70's, after the investigations and the Church Commission, new guidelines were put in place.

It's important to note - that stringent guidelines were put in place POST-1970's. In 1998, ATS was started by site owner Simon Gray, and it began as a collection of conspiracy-related pages. At that time, the guidelines concerning COINTELPRO were quite stringent.

HOWEVER....

With that said, the OTHER side of the coin is this. In 1995, Mr. Charles Swett, the Assistant for Strategic Assessment at the Pentagon, wrote the following assessment for the DoD entitled "Strategic Assessment: The Internet"

This is the abstract at the beginning of the assessment, and outlines how the DoD could possibly use the internet to "monitor public message traffic". The entire document can be Viewed Here. The abstract is shown here:

The political process is moving onto the Internet. Both within the United States and internationally, individuals, interest groups, and even nations are using the Internet to find each other, discuss the issues, and further their political goals. The Internet has also played an important role in recent conflicts. As a result, overseas segments of the Internet can be a useful tool for DoD, both for gathering and for disseminating information. By monitoring public message traffic and alternative news sources from around the world, early warning of impending significant developments could be developed, in advance of more traditional means of indications and warning. Commentary placed on the Internet by observers on the scene of low-intensity conflicts overseas could be useful to U.S. policymaking. During larger scale conflicts, when other conventional channels are disrupted, the Internet can be the only available means of communication into and out of the affected areas. Internet messages originating within regions under authoritarian control could provide other useful intelligence. Public messages conveying information about the intent of overseas groups prone to disrupting U.S. military operations can provide important counterintelligence. The Internet could also be used offensively as an additional medium in psychological operations campaigns and to help achieve unconventional warfare objectives. Used creatively as an integral asset, the Internet can facilitate many DoD operations and activities.

The following paragraph speaks to how such an intelligence gathering network would need to be "constructed":

Beside being used to develop early warning of developing conflicts or the beginnings of new global trends or "sea changes," the Internet can be used at the opposite end of the spectrum: to obtain pinpoint information about specific matters of interest. Networks of human sources with access to the Internet could be developed in areas of security concern to the U.S., and these sources could be oriented to seek specific needed information. If constructed and managed correctly, such a system could be much more responsive and efficient than the current complex, unwieldy intelligence tasking and collection processes we must use. We might even consider cultivating the capability to perform strategic reconnaissance "by modem." This approach could never replace official DoD intelligence collection systems or services, but could be a useful adjunct.

This report was provided to the DoD in 1995. ATS was created in 1998.

COULD Abovetopsecret be a government project such as is described in this paper? Sure - why not? Is it? That's what we need to prove or disprove, isn't it?

Should be simple enough, right?

-Ry

[edit on 15-6-2006 by rdube02]

First rdube let me say, wow really good work you've obviously put a lot of time into this. It really is one of the great conspiracies.

COULD Abovetopsecret be a government project such as is described in this paper? Sure - why not? Is it? That's what we need to find out now, isn't it?

It's a very interesting point but this would seem to be a very wide net being thrown out...though instead of infiltrating a group you make a group to be infiltrated by those individuals you wish to observe.

Springer helped you with the bandwith to get the interview streamed...would someone working an op do that? Maybe maybe not, arguments could be made both ways.

I personally don't think ATS is any government op. I also think it wouldn't be a very good conspiracy site if there wasn't a conspiracy about the conspiracy site, oroboros and all that.

Good work, and again I know my input doesn't count but I had two cents so there they are.

Spiderj

Sometimes things ARE as simple as they seem...

1. Someone takes ATS content and uses it (dissecting it in this case.)
2. They are requested to remove it unless they give some proper credit AND there is also an offer to open the discussion here at ATS regarding said content to look at all the angles.
3. ATS is told by the content-takers they will do no such thing EVEN THOUGH they are breaking the Creative Commons License of ATS.
4. More request are made by email to the content-takers trying to seek a win-win solution.
5. The content-takers basically respond with "we can do as we wish" and then start a campaign against ATS labeling them as COINTELPRO.

It's a simple as that. If you investigate for yourself, these content-takers have done the very same thing to many other people. In fact, anyone that makes statements contrary to their version are all labeled COINTELPRO (or maniacs if I remember.)

It's just a game to them. A coordinated campaign. It's like me taking your car. When you ask for it back, I say it's mine, I can do what I want, and then claiming you're trying to limit my mobility by wanting it back.

I think the owners of ATS would rather, people judge for themselves. There is no fear of the truth.

Summary (and I'm generalizing the 9/11 issue in question here):
One side (ATS) says - let's discuss the issue and we'll look at all angles under the full scrutiny of all the members.
The other says - this is our answer to the issue, there is no other answer, and if you say different...you must be COINTELPRO.

You (the reader) decide which logic you respect or trust.

Dude,
Am i missing something?
why do you do this?
Springer has helped you out, and in return, you cast dispersions that he (and his board) is a government controlled agent AGAIN!

In oklahoma, we refer to that kind of person as a A-HOLE.

I think your last research was good, and resulted with some good info...
So why drag it back up? Did we miss something before? Were you trying to prove that it was... and we didn't beleive you...

because as you have probably seen, there is no "proving the negative" of such an accusation

so i say,
Unless you have reasonable proof that it is Cointelpro, then It is better to say nothing at all, if you really want to appreciate the effort that the owners have given to you...

I also want truth, but i am not willing to destroy whole boards to merely accuse...

If you got proof, lets see it... dont ask the owners to YET AGAIN deny what they always have denied... that doesn't "prove" anything, and it just recycles the same BS speculation that ATS owners and users have had to endure, thanks to that lying stealing bitch...

check your motives... we are...

met Dave yet?... Dave rabbit...
if Springer was cointelpro, Rabbit wouldn't be here...







[edit on 15-6-2006 by LazarusTheLong]

WHO CARES?

This is a wildly entertaining venue, no more, no less.

Originally posted by ZeddicusZulZorander
It's a simple as that. If you investigate for yourself, these content-takers have done the very same thing to many other people. In fact, anyone that makes statements contrary to their version are all labeled COINTELPRO (or maniacs if I remember.)

That's exactly right. Laura has a history of calling everyone COINTELPRO - at one point she had called B.R. (of Slurpo fame) COINTELPRO in kahoots with ATS... LOL

The reason I bring this up is not to further the COINTELPRO theory - it's to lay it to rest once and for all because I'm sick of hearing it. I know it's kind of counterintuitive to bring up an issue that I'm sick of....but it's always been my theory to fight fire with fire. If you want to put an issue to rest, you bring it up and destroy it.

All of the points you bring up concerning Laura and her website are absolutely true, and I'm glad to see it pointed out here. However she's spread this nonsense freely for some time without any counter from ATS (as far as I could see) - and I'd like to see ATS kill these rumors once and for all.

-Ry

so, wait, ATS isn't cointelpro (why capitalize it?)? Damn, I need to pack up my fake moustache and goofy spy hat and find a new place to play.


In all seriousness, this moronic claim (yes, I do believe it is moronic), has been brought up and disputed time and time again. Why even bother to bring it up one more time? Other than to advertise the web interview, which is being aided by COINTELPRO AGENTS!!!!


Sheesh rdube, kinda low class if you ask me. Even if they were, why not do your research and prove the case, as you did so successfully with slurpo? Why pick the scab and let the wound fester some more?

Originally posted by rdube02
....but it's always been my theory to fight fire with fire.

...

All of the points you bring up concerning Laura and her website are absolutely true, and I'm glad to see it pointed out here. However she's spread this nonsense freely for some time without any counter from ATS (as far as I could see) - and I'd like to see ATS kill these rumors once and for all.

-Ry

Consider the benefits of Simply letting the fire Die. No fuel, no fire. ?!

response begets response, or not.

You are so full of it...

The only person who needed to again accuse the owners, is.....

ta dah...
YOU!

and the whole fire with fire is such BS...
read an advertising/PR book sometime... you will see HOW WRONG YOU ARE...

we delt with this issue as a board, and settled it...
and look who is comin round again...

I apologize if you truly do mean well... but you are wrong, and it smacks of some mighty big unthankfulness on your part to again accuse...

as Zed said...
people know LKJ, and the Admins probably felt as the rest of the board did...
nothing to worry about from that direction... no one gives her any credence...

So again... sorry if you mean well, but i dont see it...

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
Dude,
Am i missing something?
why do you do this?

Yes...apparently you missed the point of my post. It is to ask the guys who started this place to counter the conspiracy with the truth. If you read my question for S.O., Springer & Simon - it's just simply for the true story about the beginnings of ATS.

Springer has helped you out, and in return, you cast dispersions that he (and his board) is a government controlled agent AGAIN!

Obviously you've completely misread what I posted.

I think your last research was good, and resulted with some good info...
So why drag it back up? Did we miss something before? Were you trying to prove that it was... and we didn't beleive you...

Sorry..what's the question? What "before" are you referring to? One of the other threads covering this issue? If so, and if you feel that the issue was properly laid to rest, could you provide the link?

I'm not looking to further the conspiracy here - I'm looking to kill it for good. My post above provided both sides of the issue and the last part (the speculation) can be easily destroyed with the true history of how ATS started.

because as you have probably seen, there is no "proving the negative" of such an accusation

I disagree. It is possible to disprove a hoax, and it is possible to disprove speculations such as ATS being cointelpro. Springer understands how I research and how I explore both sides of every coin (at least I hope he understands!) And that is why I approach it this way. Both sides provided, and now the floor is open to kill it once and for all. So when the next person comes along with this theory - we can say, nope...here...the story of how ATS really started is right here in this thread - so shut up.

If you got proof, lets see it... dont ask the owners to YET AGAIN deny what they always have denied... that doesn't "prove" anything, and it just recycles the same BS speculation that ATS owners and users have had to endure, thanks to that lying stealing bitch...

check your motives... we are...

Denying isn't telling the story. My request here is with great respect to Springer & S.O. - I'm asking the guys who Laura attacked to fight back with the truth.

My motives are to take this truth back to Dr. Webre and tell him - look this is the truth - NOT what Laura has written.

It's as simple as that.

-Ry

Could he be using the cointelpro angle as an excuse to avoid being exposed to or by slurpo?

what, I get out of this whole deal, is that ats find this funny, I'm sure I would love people
to think I'm the president, when I don't claim to be. So, my theory is that why not role with it? maybe we'll get some laughs out of the deal..and maybe people will be smarter in the end...a fools journey has wisdom in the end.

rdube02,

What's trying to be said here is that the owners already HAVE been asked and "confronted" (if you would use the term) whether ATS is COINTELPRO or not.

Each time they have answered with "No". People here are mad because you're, more or less, asking them to do the same thing again. I'm sure to the Board Owners it's like having a telemarketer call every 2 weeks to ask "Are you sure you don't want this yet?".

Now, the worst thing here, is that when they actually DO answer (Owners! Please Don't!), then it actually works BACKWARDS from the way you're thinking it. Instead of people going "well then, that puts that to rest", it actually FUELS the fire some more! Because those that believe it is cointelpro then jump on and say "Well of course you'd say that!".

In other words, it's a real witch-hunt.

"Tell us the truth!"
"I'm not a witch!"
"Of course you are - witches don't tell the truth! So you're statement about not being a witch is false because witches always lie, and so you ARE a witch!"

That's over-simplified, and kinda comical, but it's essentially what happens.

So, yeah, let this thread die without an answer from them. Them answering won't PROVE anything, and will only make things worse than it is.

Thanks rdube, I appreciate it, and so does everyone else that's seen this subject come up at least once per month.

Originally posted by Crakeur
Could he be using the cointelpro angle as an excuse to avoid being exposed to or by slurpo?

Could be. The only thing I've seen work through all of this is to take every argument or suggestion they throw out, prove it wrong, and then go back and say "okay...whatchya got now big guy?"

Eventually they run out of ammo (lies) and make complete idiots out of themselves. Either Victor and/or Webre isn't being straight here. I'd like to give Webre the benefit of the doubt - but your point is well taken.

-Ry

I think we've all read threads on this board where at first you think you want to reply and then after you go over how many times you've banged your head against a wall with some members over a certain issue you just think...I'm gonna let this go cuz sometimes it just aint worth it.

That's probably the attitued the three amigos take to Jadcyk...what's the point.

As I said before I don't think they are and I also don't think theres anything they can say to people like laura that would convince her and others that they are not.

IMO of couse.

SPiderj

When springer answers with a "gee thanks for the chance to set the record straight"
I will apologize for all my statements...
I disagree with your methods totally...

If Springer is also pissed, then you are due a full power board flame...

I have been around since almost the begining, and I listened to Simon grays interview... I took the time...
And i have no doubt that our government is smart enough to have board sitters here, as they do with all conspiracy websites...

But i have come to an understanding of our governments intellegence methods, that seems to be universal...
why buy, when you can steal or borrow... and they dont need to buy ATS to get all the value out of the data base... same benefits, half the calories...

and you are still wrong... fires go out without fuel (as said previously) not by starting them again...

Originally posted by Spiderj
That's probably the attitued the three amigos take to Jadcyk...what's the point.

As I said before I don't think they are and I also don't think theres anything they can say to people like laura that would convince her and others that they are not.

IMO of couse.

SPiderj

That's a good point... Although in this case I'd like to convince Dr. Webre, not Laura - I agree that someone like Laura can't be convinced (maybe Dr. Webre is the same way...not sure). Actually, instead of one of the 3 Amigos replying to this (and so we can just let the thread die peacefully) - does anyone know of any place where SimonGray might have already told the story of the history of ATS...how ATS was started? I tried searching in the board info, but didn't see anything other than the date and in general what the forum was - but has the underlying story ever been written? The circumstances surrounding why the board was started, how it was started, etc...?

It would actually (IMHO) be an interesting read for new members to ATS anyway, regardless of the conspiracies floating around out there. Maybe there's already a thread like that that I missed?

And btw...this is yet another reason I love this place. Bring up just about any issue, and this place is like a biker bar - you have to be pretty thick-skinned if you're going to survive. Which I LIKE - because it keeps out the hoaxers and the dim-witted. LOL

-Ry

[edit on 15-6-2006 by rdube02]

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
When springer answers with a "gee thanks for the chance to set the record straight"
I will apologize for all my statements...
I disagree with your methods totally...

That's fine - while there are TONS of fantastic researchers on ATS, this place is also flooded with plenty of armchair quarterbacks who disagree with other's methods. Ask me if I care.

-Ry

[edit on 15-6-2006 by rdube02]

has logic died ??

why the *&^% are you demanding that the amigos furnish proof of a negative [ ie they are NOT cointelpro ] ???

should we start asking if you have stopped beating your wife ?? -- because frankly -- your line of inquiry is on the same level

if you are any of the muck rakers who keep dragging up this stupid claim wish to persue it - then the course is simple

YOU , or the other accusers must provide evidence that ATS.COM , ATS LLC [ the cororate entity that simon , springer and skeptic are the share holders in ] , or a named amigo is or was in contact with the FBI [ or any other alphabe soup agency ] for the purpose of COINTELPRO activity or other covert INTEL programs .

stop demanding that the amigos answer these nebulous and charges - the way you have worded it -- anything they say can be turned against them

why dont you -- look for evidence ???? --- its not hard

file FIAO or other paper work to uncover a paper trail , money trail -- slug trail -- in fact ANY connection that is DOCUMENTED linking ATS management to an alphabet soup intel agency

the true history of ATS has already been given -- if you want to falsify the given histroy , it is incumbent on you and other muck rakers to show where and why it is incorrect -- and provide counter evidence , testimony and documentation to show your claims are valid , not the stated history of the amigos .

you clearly dont believe what simon etal have stated previously about the history of ATS , why would you believe any further statements they make ???

sir -- i have met your sort before , and your motives and methods disgust me

you sir -- are a muck raking troll -- and you want dirt on ATS but are not prepared to dig yourself .

shame on you .