Survey Result Shows The US To Be Biggest Global Peace Threat

Originally posted by The Iconoclast
Then you pick on a simple spelling error and blow it completely out of proportion.

"Spelling error"? More like uneducated confusion. You really need to master your language.

Originally posted by jsobecky

Just because the dittoheads on Fox News say something does not mean its right. In fact, take the diametric view and that will usually be reality for the other 5.2 billion people on the planet.

Yeah, keep worrying about what some dirt farmer thinks of us.

Let me think back, what group of dirt farmers overthrew a superpower fighting as what the superpower considered terrorists....o that right, the founders of america.

Actually, Americans don't have a clue what they have to be proud of.

Wrong. You have nothing to be proud of. That's your life, not ours.

Ok jsobecky, its time to tell us what your proud of. Are you proud of the fact corporations economically control our country, thus are able to control our politicians? Are you proud of the fact that our soldiers are being Misused and that they are fighting for our freedom...which isn't actually even endangered? I would be proud of the fact that this country was based off of the right prospects of a society, but disgraced at what we twisted it into. I certainly cant say Im proud of america NOW.

And I swear if you say "then you can leave" then you can go to hell. Those americans didnt die so future lazy americans could say "ah what the hell, let it happen" and let this country fall apart. Just because this country went to hell because lazy consumerism americans let it, doesnt mean I should give up on the original america and leave.

Originally posted by jsobecky
More like uneducated confusion.

Okay... again a moderator needs to interject into an ATSNN thread to ask that the focus remain on the issues and away from personal attacks.

The above post earned a warning, and there may be additional coming.

PLEASE keep these threads focused on productive discussion of the main issues and away from personalities.

Originally posted by jsobecky
You've done nothing to put forward any position at all. You lost this debate a long time ago, sister.

There is no debating with anyone whose mind is closed. You made up your mind years ago and decided the rest of the world is some how inferior to the United States, so it doesn't matter what anyone says to you. If it doesn't blow smoke up the kiester of the United States the position is dead wrong. Your mind was posioned a long time ago and you refuse to see the truth, no matter how many people from other nations echo the senitments of polls like this. You believe the United States is infallible. There is no debating anyone who is lost in that delusion. A closed mind is impossible to reach.

[edit on 15-6-2006 by The Iconoclast]

OK Skeptic Overlord I agree with the decision to warn jsobecky but come on, what about this

Ah, because I didn't join the military I am a coward. Gotcha. They teach you that at bootcamp when they were playing with your 95 IQ and moulding you into a "killing machine"? And you wonder why people hate America? It's people like YOU with attitudes like YOURS

Personally I think that was a pretty harsh insult as well. I don't want to sound like a jerk or anything to that extent, but why didnt you warn iconoclast?

[edit on 15-6-2006 by grimreaper797]

Originally posted by grimreaper797
Let me think back, what group of dirt farmers overthrew a superpower fighting as what the superpower considered terrorists....o that right, the founders of america.

Yes, you're right, grimreaper. But I doubt they were worried about what the rest of the world was thinking of them at the time.

Ok jsobecky, its time to tell us what your proud of.

I'm proud of the fact that I live in a country where I can say or do whatever I please as long as I don't hurt another person. I'm proud of the fact that so many of my family fought to keep those freedoms. I'm proud that I can rise to the limit of my own desires and capabilities.

And I swear if you say "then you can leave" then you can go to hell.

grimreaper, I'm surprised that you would think I would say that to you. You are one of the few voices that I listen to here. Maybe I made a mistake in judgement.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
[Ok jsobecky, its time to tell us what your proud of. Are you proud of the fact corporations economically control our country, thus are able to control our politicians? Are you proud of the fact that our soldiers are being Misused and that they are fighting for our freedom...which isn't actually even endangered? I would be proud of the fact that this country was based off of the right prospects of a society, but disgraced at what we twisted it into. I certainly cant say Im proud of america NOW.

And I swear if you say "then you can leave" then you can go to hell. Those americans didnt die so future lazy americans could say "ah what the hell, let it happen" and let this country fall apart. Just because this country went to hell because lazy consumerism americans let it, doesnt mean I should give up on the original america and leave.

And that was the essence of my discussion with these students. It comes down to critical thinking and not being part of the crowd (group think). Articulation is a key aspect of patriotism IMO. Unless you can actually articulate what you are proud of, and can do the same for things that you would change (there is no perfect country where you are proud of everything), you are not patriotic, you are responding in a way which you were trained to respond.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by jsobecky
More like uneducated confusion.

Okay... again a moderator needs to interject into an ATSNN thread to ask that the focus remain on the issues and away from personal attacks.

The above post earned a warning, and there may be additional coming.

PLEASE keep these threads focused on productive discussion of the main issues and away from personalities.

Ok, SO, you're right. I was out of bounds. Sometimes the debate gets overheated. Mea culpa.

No its because Im tired of being told to leave the US everytime I say Im disgraced of the current state of america. I was overreacting a bit when I said it because I was reminded of more the one occassion where after saying "I am disgraced of the current state of america, Im not sure what to be proud of now" I was bashed and told I was unamerican and should leave the united states. Though this was back months ago, I still remember it because of how Insulted I was so excuse my outburst.

I also dont think I need soldiers to protect my freedoms. I think the given the freedoms we have the american citizens should be perfectly capable of protecting them ourselves. Though I do believe a military should be at hand for defending the borders, our freedoms do not need protecting from any government, we are fully capable of protecting them ourselves if we need to.

My freedoms werent endangered from 9/11. Though murder is murder, I think we should have treated it as though a murder fled the US to another country, rather then engage in two wars. If a country or group tried to take land or overthrow our government and take power, you can believe I would be not only for fighting them off but convicting the criminal leader who was behind it. If that meant going to war with that country, THEN fine. There is a difference between a group attacking our towers, and a leader of a country trying to overthrow our country and take the land.

[edit on 15-6-2006 by grimreaper797]

Also I dont think we should necessarily act based on others opinions of us, but we should be aware of it and consider it. I dont think we should be aiding any other nation period, and I dont think we should care as much about what they think. But I also dont think we should just say I dont give a damn what you say, because thats seriously dangerous.

I wouldnt walk around new york, beat some guy up then look around and say "I dont care what any of you think!" then keep walking like They should let me just get away with it. Sometimes we need outside input to let us see the whole picture. We can be blinded by our own personal interests. By thinking we are above the rest of the world, that makes us a target for invasion and being overthrown. Now thats ALOT different then being simply attacked by terrorists. I dont want to act on other countries perspectives of us but I dont want to become enemy number one because we disregard all other countries interests simply for personal gain.

Originally posted by The Iconoclast
And that was the essence of my discussion with these students. It comes down to critical thinking and not being part of the crowd (group think). Articulation is a key aspect of patriotism IMO. Unless you can actually articulate what you are proud of, and can do the same for things that you would change (there is no perfect country where you are proud of everything), you are not patriotic, you are responding in a way which you were trained to respond.

OK, but I just do not see the "groupthink" mentality that you see. When it comes to issues, or voting, there are only a few who are dedicated enough to do the research. And they end up making the difference.

Groupthink, if it exists, can be easily swayed within one week, imo. They are too fickle to hold a position for any length of time.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
I also dont think I need soldiers to protect my freedoms. I think the given the freedoms we have the american citizens should be perfectly capable of protecting them ourselves. Though I do believe a military should be at hand for defending the borders, our freedoms do not need protecting from any government, we are fully capable of protecting them ourselves if we need to.

Sure, we can do all the legislative things. But attacks on our freedoms comes from many angles. It doesn't have to be a direct hit.

My freedoms werent endangered from 9/11.

Our entire way of life changed because of that day. I personally have never viewed the world the same way since.

Though murder is murder, I think we should have treated it as though a murder fled the US to another country, rather then engage in two wars. If a country or group tried to take land or overthrow our government and take power, you can believe I would be not only for fighting them off but convicting the criminal leader who was behind it. If that meant going to war with that country, THEN fine. There is a difference between a group attacking our towers, and a leader of a country trying to overthrow our country and take the land.

C'mon, man, they were set up and harbored in Afghanistan, with the Taliban. No explicit gov't involvement, but certainly implicit collaboration.

This survey merely underscores the cognitive dissonance of the free world; particularly (west) Europe is aware that, if it were not for US "aggression," their supply of oil would have been disrupted back in 1991.

People always resent a debt they cannot repay. From the liberation of Europe in WWII, to the containment of Communism, the world owes a great deal to the stabilizing presence of the 600-pound gorilla called America.

Just like the ancient Athenians who turned on Sparta when the Spartan embassador reminded Athens of Sparta's vigilance against Persia, no nation wants to hear about it's own inadequacies.

The French are famous for their derogatory attitude toward the US; largely because France's global empire had fallen apart by 1965. After all, if you cannot feel militarily or economically superior, you can always kid yourself that you are morally or culturally more mature.


A little Kipling is in order:

Take up the White Man's burden--
In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple,
An hundred times made plain
To seek another's profit,
And work another's gain.

Take up the White Man's burden--
The savage wars of peace--
Fill full the mouth of Famine
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
The end for others sought,
Watch sloth and heathen Folly
Bring all your hopes to nought.

Take up the White Man's burden--
No tawdry rule of kings,
But toil of serf and sweeper--
The tale of common things.
The ports ye shall not enter,
The roads ye shall not tread,
Go mark them with your living,
And mark them with your dead.

Take up the White Man's burden--
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better,
The hate of those ye guard--
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah, slowly!) toward the light:--
"Why brought he us from bondage,
Our loved Egyptian night?"

. . . .

Take up the White Man's burden--
Have done with childish days--
The lightly proferred laurel,
The easy, ungrudged praise.
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years
Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers!

I'm about as American as one can get. I served in the military, I've held elective office, I've marched, I've paraded and I've protested. I regularly write my representatives in Washington and in Austin (I'm a Texan). If necessary I would fight for my country again and if needbe die for it--I love my country. However, I do understand how the world at large could easily see the U.S. as the biggest threat to world peace. We have the most powerful military and we are not hesistant to use it when we think such use warranted. Our politicians don't tend to be world statesmen or statesmen at all; they tend to be fairly narrow minded about the rest of the world. So yeah, I can see how we would scare the beejesus out of many.

Just because the rest of the world thinks that though doesn't mean they hate us, nor does it mean we in the U.S. should get angry about it--hell it's the truth.

Originally posted by jsobecky
OK, but I just do not see the "groupthink" mentality that you see. When it comes to issues, or voting, there are only a few who are dedicated enough to do the research. And they end up making the difference.

Groupthink, if it exists, can be easily swayed within one week, imo. They are too fickle to hold a position for any length of time.

Those are fair comments.

You're right on the money when it comes to voting. The key to a functioning democracy is education to the issues and understanding what you are voting on. Without this important factor you do not have a true democracy, but an illiberal democracy. As an example, I think that its wonderful that the people of Iraq flocked to the polls, but what did that really achieve? Did the people have enough time to understand the tenants (sic) of democracy and what they were voting on? I doubt it. These are a people that have lived in a culture where democracy is a foreign concept. I think they basically voted the way the cleric told them.

On patriotism, I think it can be and is conditioned into us from a very young age. I think we are taught to love our country and not question the love for that country. I think that as we age and acquire more education it makes us question more and more of the things we have accepted as being facts. I think that patriotism is one of those things that people privately struggle with at times. I think that we question matters privately, but publicly we succumb to the crowd and wave te flag as we have been taught. Unfortunately I think we have also be conditioned to not question authority, which ironically has a negative impact on our democracy in the long run. I think it takes a lot to question our beliefs and do so critically. I also think it takes a lot to adjust our perceptions to meet the ever changing world. Being able to adjust our views of patriotism, and defend the changes that should naturally take place over time, is an important factor in being at the top of the global food chain. Without this critical thought process I think that complacency can sneak up on us and catch us with our guard down. Blind patriotism allows for that complacency IMO.

Thanks to Bush & Co, America is now officially a turd circling the toilet bowl and if you Americas dont take back your country from this corrupt administration, then I can see your beloved country being flushed down the toilet.

When Bush came to power I think it was pretty obvious to most Europeans that the world would be worse off and that is exactly how things have panned out. Most Europeans do not hate America at all, they can just see Bush and his administration for what they are. Evil & corrupt Warmongers who care more about oil, powwr & wealth than they do human life.

If Blair gets his way, I can see Britain going the same way too. Hopefully it wont come to that and the good people of both Britain and America will flush Bush & Blair down the toilet instead, where they obviously belong.....

Originally posted by Astronomer70
I'm about as American as one can get. I served in the military, I've held elective office, I've marched, I've paraded and I've protested. I regularly write my representatives in Washington and in Austin (I'm a Texan). If necessary I would fight for my country again and if needbe die for it--I love my country. However, I do understand how the world at large could easily see the U.S. as the biggest threat to world peace. We have the most powerful military and we are not hesistant to use it when we think such use warranted. Our politicians don't tend to be world statesmen or statesmen at all; they tend to be fairly narrow minded about the rest of the world. So yeah, I can see how we would scare the beejesus out of many.

Just because the rest of the world thinks that though doesn't mean they hate us, nor does it mean we in the U.S. should get angry about it--hell it's the truth.

Brilliantly put Astronomer

You have voted Astronomer70 for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

I see alot of hoohah coming from people who disagree with the conclusion of this poll but I dont see any rationalization for why they disagree with it. They can pretend the World either loves the United States or is completely misinformed but that does not change facts on the ground. Speaking from outside the United States, in our day-to-day conversations with friends and family its plain as Mount Rushmore that the United States is not trusted any more. I personally view that as a real shame, but like you said "hell it's the truth".

[edit on 15/6/06 by subz]

Originally posted by jsobecky
Sure, we can do all the legislative things. But attacks on our freedoms comes from many angles. It doesn't have to be a direct hit.

to me it wasn't an attack of our freedoms. There is no other way I can put that. Like I asked before show me what freedoms are endangered? My life in danger is the cost I pay to be free, as all of us. That is the price as far as Im concerned. Now I want to know what freedoms are the terrorists taking away?

Our entire way of life changed because of that day. I personally have never viewed the world the same way since.

yes but why? Was it from the actions of the terrorists, or the reaction of our government? Like I said before, WW3 won't be started by one country/groups actions, but our reactions.

C'mon, man, they were set up and harbored in Afghanistan, with the Taliban. No explicit gov't involvement, but certainly implicit collaboration.

OK so If there were a group in the US, which was funded by the US, attacked another countries government or people, then that country would have the right to launch a full out war on the US?
Well if thats the case then Iran has every right to attack us. As does Cuba, as does guatemala, as does any other country that has been attacked by the CIA. If you want to get technical with it, the CIA overthrew the Guatemalan and Iranian democratically elected government, installing a dictatorship. To me, under your reasoning, is giving Iran and Guatemala rightful cause to invade and overthrow our country. Thats what we did to afganistan. A group they funded probably attacked us, so we invaded them, then Iraq as well for claims of connection.

To me, I don't think I could stand behind that logic because I would be calling for the US government to be overthrown by foreign people not of the US.

Why US may be seen as a global threat well . . . perhaps some of this could be seen in the actions and the way foreign policy is played by our administration.

The administration would have kept the international support after 9/11 won after the tragedy but the invasion of Iraq torn that good will and intentions away.

Attacking nations in bases that is to weed out terrorist and then promising rebuilding with a western style society that doesn’t work with the views, ideologies and traditions of the people involve will accomplish nothing more than more dislike upon the US.

Especially upon a nation that did nothing to us to begin with...

Showing the world that going after a goal with poor planning and causing a chain of bad unexpected reactions in a very sensitive area of the world as the Middle East will make any other country edgy and nervous and reluctant.

Originally posted by Astronomer70
I'm about as American as one can get. I served in the military, I've held elective office, I've marched, I've paraded and I've protested. I regularly write my representatives in Washington and in Austin (I'm a Texan). If necessary I would fight for my country again and if needbe die for it--I love my country. However, I do understand how the world at large could easily see the U.S. as the biggest threat to world peace. We have the most powerful military and we are not hesistant to use it when we think such use warranted. Our politicians don't tend to be world statesmen or statesmen at all; they tend to be fairly narrow minded about the rest of the world. So yeah, I can see how we would scare the beejesus out of many.

Just because the rest of the world thinks that though doesn't mean they hate us, nor does it mean we in the U.S. should get angry about it--hell it's the truth.

If I had a WATS left I would give it right to you but Ive seen so many educated responses lately (and a couple really bad responses) that I have used my WATS up this month.

big plus respect for you at least.

[edit on 15-6-2006 by grimreaper797]