Originally posted by TONE23
wecomeinpeace -We dont really have to be "uber special" to be worth saving. But is it not, the instinct of all life to continue to evolve in order to survive?

Sure, but since when is instinct one of the higher functions and a laudable tenet? What's so special about instinct? It serves a function and that's it. Instincts are like assholes, everyone's...- well, you know the rest.

Personally I feel the same way you do sometimes, Especially knowing mankind's tendencies.

To be honest, I don't truly feel that way, although I do get that feeling occasionally when I watch the news. Another poster above made a good case for our continued survival, but the scales are closely weighted. And instinct doesn't weigh much. I guess I'll let you all live...this time.

[edit on 2006-6-13 by wecomeinpeace]

Originally posted by wecomeinpeace

Originally posted by TONE23
wecomeinpeace -We dont really have to be "uber special" to be worth saving. But is it not, the instinct of all life to continue to evolve in order to survive?

Sure, but since when is instinct one of the higher functions and a laudable tenet? What's so special about instinct? It serves a function and that's it. Instincts are like assholes, everyone's...- well, you know the rest.

Personally I feel the same way you do sometimes, Especially knowing mankind's tendencies.

To be honest, I don't truly feel that way, although I do get that feeling occasionally when I watch the news. Another poster above made a good case for our continued survival, but the scales are closely weighted. And instinct doesn't weigh much. I guess I'll let you all live...this time.

[edit on 2006-6-13 by wecomeinpeace]

LOL... I knew I should've spaced those sentences apart.

My first line: I was merely saying that I agree that we are not overly important, but, just because we are insignifigant doesnt mean we are not worth saving.

My second line: I was trying to illustrate instinct as a basic principle of fact. I was not trying to illustrate it as a higher function.

original quote by:wecomeinpeace
To be honest, I don't truly feel that way, although I do get that feeling occasionally when I watch the news.

Yes the news is good at doing that

I would agree we don't have the right to spread the same insanity we now live in, but on the other hand, maybe one day we will evolve past our instincts that drive us and reach a point that is worth saving.

Like others have said though, long distance space travel or acclimating to another planet is beyond us right now. The human body is just not capable to deal with the amount of cosmic radiation one would receive on a long trip, nor have the immunities to deal with new bacteria and microorganisms that would no doubt be encountered on another life sustaining planet.

Personally, I don't think we will survive in the long run, but in the future, we may create a race of beings or artificial intelligence that are immune to these weaknesses. They will probably outlive us, and that will be our legacy.

Till then we should do what we can to clean up our house. If not for ourselves, do it for our children.

Originally posted by wecomeinpeace
mecheng, you're assuming that there's nothing better after.

Nobody knows what comes next. All we have right now is the life we live in. It's not perfect but I think most people probably like it. I don't share your view that if we were wiped out tomorrow that it's no great loss.

With all the suffering and pain that is being experienced by all those less fortunate than you every minute of every day, do you think that an end to it all and cleaning house should be something to fear and mourn?

I don't fear death. I think there is something better waiting for us after this life is over. But I don't look forward to it. I understand there are injustices in the world and many, many people are underprivleged compared to others, but whose to say they aren't happy and should look forward to death... like it's their only hope? You assume that because you "think" they are unhappy that we all should be wiped clean. I don't agree and I assume that if you ask 'them' they would also agree. Perhaps instead of looking forward to the end we should look forward to change... to offer help to those that are underprivleged.

By the way, I agree with you that we are not, as a species, prepared to take over another planet. We are not responsible yet.

You nay sayers are the same type mentality that lead to the Levi's bursting in NO.

Fact is there is nothing we can do if our planet becomes inhospitible to humans.

Fact is earths climate has only been at a state were it can support humans for a very short time in its history.

Fact is rouge asteroids and comets can and likely will destroy the environment here on earth.

Fact is we currently have the technology and ability to exploit space but at huge cost because we have not yet developed economical means to move matter into space. But we CAN move matter into space.

There are small metal/rock asteroids that could be easily converted to colonies and be completely self sufficient with the knowledge we have today.

With use of nuclear energy you could supply and asteroid "Ship" with enough energy to supply a propulsion system and environment to support humans that could be used today to move a colony of humans to another star system or one of our outer planets, though it would take many many generations of humans to reach it (Star System).

The billions the United States and the world at large uses on military power and war could EASILY have funded a robust space colonization program.

Just a small portion of those billions if invest in R&D could develope plasma engines that could make a mars trip in a matter of weeks.

Asteroid Impact
Comet Impact
Super Volcano
Global Warming (even if its not man made)
Viruses
Diseases
Biological weapons
Wars
Nuclear weapons
Earth becoming super volcanic again
Sun could do things that we don't know about yet that could easily wipe our environment away.
Earth changes in general.
Methane release from deep oceans.

We do not control the earths future and to ensure the preservation of humanity we MUST move off this planet and spread humanity around.

It may never happen...but is it worth the risk if it does?

Was it worth losing all those lives in NO by ignoring a possibility?
Was it worth not securing our Airliners because no one thought that some sicko's would crash them into our buildings?




[edit on 13-6-2006 by Xeven]

Originally posted by Xeven
It may never happen...but is it worth the risk if it does?

If we could go and say a catestrophic asteroid is about to hit us, who gets to go? The rich? The Celebrity? The Intelligent? The Privileged? The Board of Directors of MJ-12?

[edit on 13-6-2006 by mecheng]

Originally posted by Xeven

Fact is there is nothing we can do if our planet becomes inhospitible to humans.

There is nothing personal in my choice of quote here. Just using this sentence as a basis for my points.

This planet is already inhospitable to humans. It is only through our intellect and a tremendous amount of energy that we make it hospitable by heating, cooling, growing, building, etc.etc. Throw us into the brush emptyhanded and naked, and without specialized training our odds of survival may not be so good. Pick a location with hungry predators and the odds may go down even lower.

My point is, I'm confident that with the continued application of our intellect and energy, we can certainly expand humanity's presence in the cosmos. However, it will have to be a collective effort. And that's what may be our downfall. It may require some unimaginable threat or catastrophe to unite the entire planet into the sort of endeavor that puts self-sustaining human colonies on other planets.

Originally posted by MrPenny

My point is, I'm confident that with the continued application of our intellect and energy, we can certainly expand humanity's presence in the cosmos. However, it will have to be a collective effort. And that's what may be our downfall. It may require some unimaginable threat or catastrophe to unite the entire planet into the sort of endeavor that puts self-sustaining human colonies on other planets.

Unfortunately I have to agree with you...Humanity is not at the correct spiritual level in general to be able to work together. Sorry too many ignorant assholes running around with only a care for themselves . Until we genuinely unite for the common good and not to get that new sports car you've always wanted, will we fully understand our purpose. The real "job" of being human, is to in fact live a human life. However, what you describe as a human life has been corrupted by many teachings (religion, science, etc) that allow us to behave like common animals. We are cosmic beings from places unknown to us at this current moment (being stuck in a body will do this to you). Until death one will not know unless there is some great insight into your personal being. The answers we seek are alive in all of us, yet dead in all of us at the same time...

Wake up today and tomorrow may not be so bad!



I don't want to pretend like I have all the answers because I don't have any for you. However, I can tell when I'm being lied to...As Einstein said, "It is difficult to say what truth is, but sometimes it is easy to recognize a falsehood."

[edit on 13-6-2006 by biggie smalls]

This is really a no brainier IMHO. Even if humans become the environmentally species to ever grace this galaxy we are doomed in the long run if we don't get off this rock.

Every billion years the sun gets 10% hotter and in some 4 billion years time it will grow so big it will consume the earth its self. But we will all be slow boiled long before that. But we have bigger worries about that time when the Milky Way galaxy and Andromeda galaxy are going to be in for one heck of a collision that will make either galaxy not someplace you want to be some 3 billion years from now. Those are really long term but when we are talking about leaving the entire galaxy for a new one if we want a good chance of survival we are going to need a lot of time.

The real threat is that sooner or later will be hit by a massive comet or asteroid and chances are a star will go super nova within a few hundred light years of earth that will flash fry the planet. These event can happen at really anytime and with all our eggs in one basket we will share the fate of 99% percent of life that has ever lived on earth extinction.

Spreading out in space it really the only way a species can achieve for all practical purposes immortality

I think it makes a lot more sense to build our own garden ships than to try and find/terraform/colonize a distant world. There's no need to travel at ridiculous speeds if generations live on the ship, and have an ability to sustain the population.

Artificial insemination and beaker-babies, aboard a space-fairing biosphere, could well be the future of our species if we're forced into space by a disaster here on earth.

But the time to think of these questions is NOW, not later, not 'when it happens'. The more prep the better our chances of survival.

One way or another this rock is going bye-bye, eventually. Whether the sun eats us, or the core cools, or the humans do something stupid - it's going to happen. Best to plan for sooner, rather than later, and get a move on.

I really like the idea of farming in space, especially if the water comes from fuel cells. It wouldn't be practical to cart up enough water for several generations, but there are options. Ice-farming might be another one of them.

I agree that we're intimately connected to this planet, but I don't think the prospect of life in space is so impossible. Technologically speaking it's quite a lot easier to engineer, compared to sustaining life under the oceans, isn't it? Much easier to build for a vacumm, at least in terms of ensuring structural integrity, and the consequences of faliure are no less-drastic underwater.

I envision humanity in the future as a loose collective of self-sustaining, self-governing colonies cast out in all directions. It would also be a chance for practically limitless sociological experimentation, to see what works and what doesn't - we could refine and improve our social structure until we find a form of education/government that adequately suits our needs.

I've never been one to keep all my eggs in one basket, no matter how large and lush and beautiful the basket happens to be. I love earth, but I think it would be a mistake to cling to it when we have other options. Just as every child leaves home, so must we.

Unless you want the future of humanity to resemble some 40 year old living in his parent's basement, subsisting off of porno and pop tarts.

Dosnt matter if the life you hold is important to you or not. People cant be this ignorant, We are simply the same as hill of ants as far as nature is concerned. To think otherwise is nutz. Human beings are so tiny in the universe its incomprehensible to me that some people think we will be able to survive for any extended period of time (greater then 1 billion years). Thats what bacteria and single celled animals are for...not us. We are just here enjoying the view for a bit. With all of the odds for life are great, so are the odds for mass extinction. If Hawkings ever gets his wish it will be for a short lived. We cant even make peace on this huge ass rock, let alone a space ship where everything would be even smaller.

Originally posted by imbalanced
Thats what bacteria and single celled animals are for...not us. We are just here enjoying the view for a bit. With all of the odds for life are great, so are the odds for mass extinction.

Even Bacteria will not survive the firestorm waiting for the earth, Infact no life that isnt smart enough to get off the planet will. From a galactic scale humanity isnt much more then smart bacteria IMO.

The odds for mass exinction go down vastly once a species starts to colonize a decent amount of star systems. When a species colonizes most of a galaxy or even multiple galaxies the chances of mass extinction become almost nil.

No single natural disaster could wipe out such a species and it would become almost impossible for even events like war to kill a civilization which spands many light years.

Using only real tech (no warp drives or whatever) a species could colonize most of the Milkway in about 50 million years. Even the Milky Way -Andromeda galaxy collision could not wipe out such a species.

In regards to spreading the human seed through out the known universe I am a yes. See here's the thing people can say clean up Earth blah blah....

Realistically we could all die tommorow if some unknown force destroyed our planet or if a nuclear war started. Presto Earth is no more....

We do need space exploration and research and colonization of other spacial bodies such as mars and the moon and even going beyond our solar system as well. The fact we have made it as far as what we have is proof that human ingenuity can and hopefully will save us.

Yes, of course Hawking would like to be in space where he can float around without his wheelchair and get some kind of relief. But long-range space travel is just too difficult, physically demanding, and expensive, compared to sending intelligent robots to do the work for us. We don't get enough of a return on the investment if we have to send people into deep space.

has anyone discussed the possibility of a space station? maybe this would be the next step in a transition toward living away from earth. It would at least allow us to expand more and also solve problems of overcrowding, temporarily that is.

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
This is really a no brainier IMHO. Even if humans become the environmentally species to ever grace this galaxy we are doomed in the long run if we don't get off this rock.

Oh, we're doomed anyway. Our species as it exists now is just a transitional species that is moving life from carbon-based to silicon-based by way of intelligent computers and robots. In another 2,500 years, which is not a long time, geologically speaking, we'll have sent our "children" out into space, and they'll continue to live and grow throughout the galaxy. But we'll never make it, ourselves. We're just not built to survive the rigors of space without being in a relatively protective planetary environment.

DOO-O-O-O-O-OMED, I tells ya!

What will happen is there will be a way out for some people that know such as Iran , Iraq if they do start a Nuclear Holocaust there will be no way out presently. And that even they will perish, which even though they pretend not to cre about themsleves. Even they care about thier children and other family members.

Originally posted by Gools
We need a specific conditions of gravity

We need to control gravity as in Star Trek and other sci-fi shows.

air pressure,

Already achieved. Air can easily be filtered and reused.

air mixture,

The right amount of oxygen can easily be mechanically produced.

sunlight,

For long journeys, big spaceships with artificial lighting will carry humans to new planets (think about the giant cylinders in RAMA).

For shorter journeys, there is no problem with artificial lighting, which can be almost as strong as the sun's lighting.

food and water requirements etc.

Aside from growing plants (ala RAMA), the ideal situation would be to be able to manage reality as we manage computer pixels...then we could build anything, and no matter would be wasted. Yes, I am thinking Star Trek replicators.

Eventually, humans will learn how to build reality like a computer program - then the stars will be ours.

Originally posted by mecheng

Originally posted by Xeven
It may never happen...but is it worth the risk if it does?

If we could go and say a catestrophic asteroid is about to hit us, who gets to go? The rich? The Celebrity? The Intelligent? The Privileged? The Board of Directors of MJ-12?

[edit on 13-6-2006 by mecheng]

Well since you are quoting me...

My point is to begin to colonize space. It is sorta like moving from Europe to the Americas. Get it?

Its not a life boat I am talking about. It is creating habitats for humans to live on wihtout access to earth. This would begin without any knowledge of imenant destruction of the earth.

For instance if no human had ever left africa and a virus infected africa and killed them all then none of us would be alive. But since we did spread out of africa that same virus would hopefully only kill those in africa and not all of the humans alive.

So if humanity spreads itself out over the galaxy over the next thousands of years if a asteroid was to hit earth and wipe out humans on earth our speicies would continue to live throughout the colonies in the galaxy maybe someday comming back to recolonize earth should it ever become habitible again....

Hope that clears that up for you