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The Third Electrical Current

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posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 10:43 AM
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Coils are driven AC, Electrolyt sees DC all the time.


Sorry, I see no coils in your circuit.

Only power sources, and electrodes.

And I don't see how you could have a change in current direction without switching polarity of the electrodes.

It does not work.




posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 11:06 AM
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Originally posted by Malichai

Coils are driven AC, Electrolyt sees DC all the time.


Sorry, I see no coils in your circuit.

Only power sources, and electrodes.

And I don't see how you could have a change in current direction without switching polarity of the electrodes.

It does not work.


It does work. Can't help when you don't see that.

the coils are the one in the electrolyt. At least I saw them as coils in your original sdc drawing and I saw coils in the video.

well here is an equivalent network for the coils in the electrolyt:



sorry dont have time for a detailed legend.

But should be understandable. You should use the simplified netwrok C or D (without the inductivities) for a simple analysis of my circuit and the SDC circuit.

You will see that the current as well as the voltage in the horizontal resistors that are the resistor of the coil, switches! in your SDC circuit.
Whereas the current and the voltage in the electrolyt (vertical resistors) is constant DC and does not switch.

I guess i lieave it alone now. Study it, if you get it fine, if not fine too.
I stay with my statement there is no new form of current. And you may see this different.

p.s. An AC current always changes direction, at least pure one without a DC offset.
p.s.2 I did not specify what wave form the Ac generator deliver. Sinus would be best, but you can also use rectangle if you want to have it close to your SDC circuit.



posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 06:21 PM
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You will see that the current as well as the voltage in the horizontal resistors that are the resistor of the coil, switches! in your SDC circuit.


The voltages and current in the Sully System switches, but not the polarity.

In yours it does.

Thats what makes SDC unique.

The negative half is always negative, and the positive is always positive.



posted on Jun, 17 2006 @ 11:09 AM
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www.upload2.net...

Here is a new diagram. Please read the notes in the corner.

[edit on 17-6-2006 by Malichai]



posted on Jun, 17 2006 @ 07:06 PM
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www.sullydc.com...

New diagram now up at homepage. Not showing where the coils were located likely threw some people off at first.



posted on Jun, 18 2006 @ 09:52 AM
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Mr. Sullivan has released a new diagram. I hope this one helps people understand better.

www.upload2.net...



posted on Jun, 18 2006 @ 06:41 PM
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There is one benefit that is not so obvious, and you need to look at it as a power source to understand. From the sully DC power power station, across the Sully DC power lines, and too your Sully DC powered device there is no change in current direction within the wires so there is not the EMF loss/hazard associated with AC, but you still have the switching benefits of AC.



posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 07:44 PM
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www.upload2.net...

A new diagram I just received from Mr. Sullivan. I hope this helps explain better what is happening in the system.



posted on Jun, 20 2006 @ 07:17 PM
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It helps if you try to forget what you CAN'T do with typical AC and DC circuits.

Lets use figure 12 from the patent for discussion to avoid confusion:
rexresearch.com/sullivan/fig12.jpg


From the Patent:
The multi-directional electric currents have the effect of accelerating processes that rely on interaction between a current and the medium that carries the current, and of eliminating asymmetries that can lead to scaling or premature wear in batteries and other electrolytic systems. The medium that carries the multi-dimensional currents may be an electrolyte, gas, gel, semiconductor, or any other medium capable of carrying current between two electrodes, and having at least two dimensions so as to enable variation in the current direction.
...................................
If the voltages applied to the electrodes are DC voltages, then the multi-directional currents have characteristics of DC currents, and if the voltages applied to the electrodes are two or three phase AC voltages, then the multi-directional currents have characteristics of AC currents. However, unlike conventional DC and AC currents, the currents generated by the method and apparatus of the invention move or rotate. If the electrodes are one-dimensional wires, then the currents rotate in two-directions. If the electrodes themselves move, or extend over two or three-dimensions, for example a plane or a curved plane, then the currents will move in three-dimensions.


SDC requires at least one extra PHYSICAL dimension in the current path which is the fluid electrolyte[Water + Electrolyte]. Through wires you can only have AC or DC in their various forms. SDC has characteristics that are found in both AC and DC that would seem to be mutally exclusive, and they are in a single dimensional circuit.

In figure 12 you see two wires. One is connected to the two positive terminals, and the other to the two negative terminals. The four switches are alternated 180 degrees out of phase. In the first half of the cycle current flows from one pole through the wire, then through the coil to all points where conductor is touching the fluid medium, then across the medium to the other wire, and on to the opposing pole. At no time are there any more than two poles with a switch closed. In the second half of the cycle the current path is the same except that its coming from the opposite end of the wire.

Think of the coil as having two single dimensional connections, and one multi-dimensional connection. Through the connection between the two power supply poles you have AC current without changing polarity. Through the connection between the poles and the medium you have DC current[in single dimensional terms. Actually its SDC].

Through the coil the direction of the current flow changes, but polarity never changes. Through the medium the current flow between anode and cathode never reverses, but its physical direction through the medium does change. It sort of sways back and forth without reversing direction. In absolute terms using one dimensional measurments you have continuous DC current flow between anode and cathode. It has all the properties of DC, but since the current flow though the medium is changing directions the current takes on the magnetic properties of AC current.

You only need to change the direction, not reverse directions.

It is DC with a property normally associated with AC.

And it is AC with a property normally associated with DC.

The effect cannot be reproduced with AC or DC. The properties are mutually exclusive in those systems. The new physical dimension in the circuit allows the current to possess an additional electrical property.

If you are having a hard time understanding don't feel bad. I can't begin to do even the simplest parts of the math, but I can visualize what is happening in my mind.

And I think 3DC [implying new dimensions] might be a better term, but Mr. Sullivan might not like the idea.

Michael



posted on Jun, 20 2006 @ 09:20 PM
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ADD:

SDC current through the electrolyte in the example also carries a time component even though flow is continuous DC in single dimensional terms.

In other designs the current allows other combinations of properties that are mutually exclusive to AC and DC.

You can have your cake, and eat it too.



posted on Jun, 25 2006 @ 12:32 AM
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In a one dimensional world the only way to change direction is to reverse direction, but thats not true in a multi-dimensional world.

The change in current direction through the coil-electrode is accomplished by switching which end of the wire is connected to the anode or cathode, but current flow between electrodes across the fluid medium does not reverse directions. Anode and Cathode do not switch, but direction does change.

Current flow through the wire changes direction without changing polarity, and curent flow through the fluid medium does not reverse direction.

A wire may be a single dimensional current path, but an electrode is not, and neither is a fluid medium capable of carrying current such as water with an electrolyte added.



[edit on 25-6-2006 by Malichai]



posted on Jun, 25 2006 @ 07:48 AM
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S'funny, I was going to ask if you were Sully.

It seems that the "inventor" has misunderstood a basic & widely used method of switching a DC supply to produce a psuedo AC one. As already stated, this is a simple diagram of an inverter.

I work for the leading supplier of semiconductors in the World, & I discuss this principle with our customers on a daily basis. We call it an "H" bridge, but no matter which letter you use, it is the same thing.

In practice, the switches would be replaced by IGBT's or a similar semiconductor - I'll wager that the "inventor" has probably opted for thyristors or MOSFETs.

The DC voltage supply polarity never changes, this is true, but the current flow in the circuit changes as the paired switches are turned on & then off sequentially. This produces an alternating current, which in a commercial inverter would be fed via large electrolytics to smooth the waveform & produce something very similar to a sinewave.

It seems to me that the "inventor" is looking at each condition (ie, switch pair one closed, pair 2 open, & vice versa) & considering it at an instant in time. In doing so, he is seeing that no matter which state the pairs of switches are in, the electrode always sees the -ve DC voltage supply polarity as negative, & the +ve DC voltage as always positive. This is why he thinks that the polarity of the electrode never changes.

What he is failing to see, is that by switching the paired switches on & off, & considering it over a longer time frame, the current flowing is changing direction & what he has is a psuedo AC current produced by a DC fed inverter.

In other words, he thinks that, for example, because terminal A of the electrode is always electrically connected to the -ve of the DC supply, but that he can measure an AC current flowing in the circuit, he has created a new form of electrical current - a strange hybrid of DC & AC that co-exist simultaneously.

I think that this must be how he is misunderstanding the principle & must be the cause of his misinterpretation. It is the only way I can see that he has come to the conclusion that he has a DC system exhibiting AC characteristics.

Just goes to prove the old saying that a little bit of knowledge is dangerous - but at least that is better than the total lack of knowledge exhibited by the patent office.

[edit on 25-6-2006 by Power_Semi]



posted on Jun, 25 2006 @ 02:19 PM
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I work for the leading supplier of semiconductors in the World, & I discuss this principle with our customers on a daily basis. We call it an "H" bridge, but no matter which letter you use, it is the same thing.


In an H-Bridge, X-bridge, or any other similar circuit you do not see both Alternating current nd Continuous DC current flowing through the same component.

The difference is that in an X-bridge you have AC flowing through the coil, but not DC.

With the SDC example you have both AC and DC.

AC from one end of the wire to the other, and DC from one coil to another.



posted on Jun, 25 2006 @ 02:22 PM
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n other words, he thinks that, for example, because terminal A of the electrode is always electrically connected to the -ve of the DC supply, but that he can measure an AC current flowing in the circuit, he has created a new form of electrical current - a strange hybrid of DC & AC that co-exist simultaneously.


They exist at the same time and the same place. In your X-Bridge example the coil may see AC current, but not at the same time as it sees DC current. The resistors see DC current, but not AC.

Its simple to create a circuit where different parts see different current forms, but you won't see it in the same place at the same time without using SDC.



posted on Jun, 25 2006 @ 07:51 PM
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Originally posted by Malichai

In an H-Bridge, X-bridge, or any other similar circuit you do not see both Alternating current nd Continuous DC current flowing through the same component.

The difference is that in an X-bridge you have AC flowing through the coil, but not DC.

With the SDC example you have both AC and DC.

AC from one end of the wire to the other, and DC from one coil to another.



Originally posted by Malichai

In an H-Bridge, X-bridge, or any other similar circuit you do not see both Alternating current nd Continuous DC current flowing through the same component.

The difference is that in an X-bridge you have AC flowing through the coil, but not DC.

With the SDC example you have both AC and DC.

AC from one end of the wire to the other, and DC from one coil to another.


I've looked at your figures 1 & 2 above & I think I have found the source of your confusion. The switches are NOT configured as an H bridge, & if this is how you have configured your equipment, then you are seeing pulsed DC through the load, in one direction only, & this is only courtesy of conduction via the cells. Considering no leakage (which there will be, but for the sake of clarity lets ignore it) :

If you close switch 1 & 3, then you have conduction through cell 1 only;
If you close switch 1 & 2, then you have conduction through cells 1 & 2;
If you close switch 4 & 3, then you have conduction through cells 1 & 2;
If you close switch 4 & 2, then you have conduction through cell 2 only.

Closing switches 1 or 4 does not give current flow in the directions you are indicating, because there is no circuit within the +ve loop. The circuit is made via either switch 2 or 3, and current flows from the +ve loop, through the cell/s, to the negative side. The only relevant arrows in your figures 1&2 are the ones in the middle of the cell (current 1), showing current flow from right (the +ve side) to left (the negative side).

The whole point of a H bridge, or any other kind of switching arrangement is to control the current flow through the load. In all cases in your figures the current flows in through the load in one direction only - this is direct current, not alternating current.

I suggest that if you remove one pair of switches & simply switch the remaining pair on & off you will achieve the same result.

However, your figs do not make clear how the cell is constructed, it simply shows the conductor as a line running through the cell, so maybe I'm wrong, though I seriously doubt it. Perhaps you can clarify this more.

Also, what frequency are you switching at.
What is the inductance of the coils (assuming there are coils).
If there are coils are you using flywheel diodes.
Do you have any traces of the current at different points in the circuit.


[edit on 25-6-2006 by Power_Semi]

[edit on 25-6-2006 by Power_Semi]

[edit on 25-6-2006 by Power_Semi]



posted on Jun, 25 2006 @ 08:53 PM
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Think of the path as everything between origin, and destination. The path of the flow changes, but the origin and destination do not switch. It goes from the same place to the same place, but leaves and arrives by different paths. In a solid circuit the path never changes.

You can't change origin and destination without switching polarity with either DC or AC. The four wires from the SDC power supply allow changing both origin and destination through a fluid medium capable of conducting current without switching polarity. Its not AC because anode, and Cathode never switch, and its not DC because origin and destination do change.

Its all about controling and using the additional dimensions of a fluid medium. While the nature of fluid conduction is understood controling it through switching without reversing polarity is new and unique.

The point is that, the way the four terminals are switched, the current WITHIN ONE ELECTRODE reverses direction, and has zero average value at the center. At the same time, the voltage BETWEEN ELECTRODES is a constant DC value (ignoring switching transients). Thus “multidirectional DC” refers simultaneously to the multidirectional intra-electrode current and the single direction inter-electrode current.



posted on Jun, 25 2006 @ 09:06 PM
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[ ridiculous, just as the whole idea of getting "free energy" out of water.


Forsooth! Tis not true! Yerely drop water over a water wheel... all kinds of free energy, and the water stays just as clean as when it started.

Ye Old Grist Mill to Ye New Hoover Dam all the same



posted on Jun, 25 2006 @ 09:21 PM
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Originally posted by Power_Semi


I've looked at your figures 1 & 2 above & I think I have found the source of your confusion. The switches are NOT configured as an H bridge, & if this is how you have configured your equipment, then you are seeing pulsed DC through the load, in one direction only, & this is only courtesy of conduction via the cells.


Current across the medium is continuous and always one direction between anode and cathode. It is not pulsed.


Considering no leakage (which there will be, but for the sake of clarity lets ignore it) :

If you close switch 1 & 3, then you have conduction through cell 1 only;
If you close switch 1 & 2, then you have conduction through cells 1 & 2;
If you close switch 4 & 3, then you have conduction through cells 1 & 2;
If you close switch 4 & 2, then you have conduction through cell 2 only.


In the first half of the cycle 1&2 are closed and 3&4 are open. This reverses in the second half of the cycle.


Closing switches 1 or 4 does not give current flow in the directions you are indicating, because there is no circuit within the +ve loop.


That does not happen in the diagram.


The circuit is made via either switch 2 or 3, and current flows from the +ve loop, through the cell/s, to the negative side. The only relevant arrows in your figures 1&2 are the ones in the middle of the cell (current 1), showing current flow from right (the +ve side) to left (the negative side).


In diagram 2 which shows the second half of the cycle current one does not change direction compared with diagram 1, but current 5 does change direction. Without switching anode and cathode.


The whole point of a H bridge, or any other kind of switching arrangement is to control the current flow through the load. In all cases in your figures the current flows in through the load in one direction only - this is direct current, not alternating current.


Different purposes in different circuits is to be expected. I was not saying the two were the same. Many people confuse the two because the switching system is similar, but what happens in the circuit is entirely different.


I suggest that if you remove one pair of switches & simply switch the remaining pair on & off you will achieve the same result.


Without four poles switching origin and destination without reversing you have an entirely different circuit, and it does not apply. The results will not be the same.


However, your figs do not make clear how the cell is constructed, it simply shows the conductor as a line running through the cell, so maybe I'm wrong, though I seriously doubt it. Perhaps you can clarify this more.


I am not the inventor, and I have not tried to duplicate his experiments. The conductors running through the fluid are helical coils.


Also, what frequency are you switching at.
What is the inductance of the coils (assuming there are coils).
If there are coils are you using flywheel diodes.
Do you have any traces of the current at different points in the circuit.


I have some information, but I am not free to release it yet. Mr. Sullivan is working with a PhD to give a rebuttal to those who see an X-Bridge, to conduct efficiency tests, and to write a journal paper. As soon as Mr. Sullivan is satisfied with the work it will be released.

He understands the errors in not having all the information in the press release, and is trying to put it all together where experiments can be replicated.



posted on Jun, 25 2006 @ 09:24 PM
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Originally posted by zorgon

Forsooth! Tis not true! Yerely drop water over a water wheel... all kinds of free energy, and the water stays just as clean as when it started.

Ye Old Grist Mill to Ye New Hoover Dam all the same


The inventor is not claiming free energy. It is a new type of electrical current employed with the aim of increasing the efficiency of water electrolysis, but that will not be the only application.



posted on Jun, 25 2006 @ 09:58 PM
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SDC = Switched DC


Originally posted by Malichai
Current across the medium is continuous and always one direction between anode and cathode. It is not pulsed.

Emphasis mine. This description seems to be at odds with Mr. Sullivan's own description.


U.S. Patent #7,041,203: Apparatus and method for generating and using multi-direction DC and AC electrical currents

Multi-directional currents are generated in a medium by cyclically reversing the direction of a conventional current applied to at least one of at least two electrodes so that an electromotive force (EMF) pulse travels from side of the electrode to the other, changing the direction of current in the medium.

The words are Mr. Sullivan's, the emphasis is mine.

Aside from that, your description matches the definition of Direct Current quite handily.

If the current is truly continuous, flows in only one direction and its magnitude doesn't change, it's Direct Current.

What Mr. Sullivan describes is nothing more than an AC waveform with a DC bias. The fact that it is achieved by using switching circuits in parallel operating at different phases doesn't change that fact.

I've looked carefully through this thread, looked at Mr. Sullivan's website, examined the circuit diagrams and have tried to find something -- aside from novel terms and analogies -- that is actually new in a true physical sense about this, and I'm not able to find it.

That's because it's not there.

The truth is never complicated, only that which obscures it.

All the hand-waving and obfuscation in the world will not change the laws of physics.

New terminology is not the same as new technology.

What has been patented is perhaps a wonderful new way to perform electrolysis, and a whole new family of "Sully" buzzwords, but not a new form of electric current.



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