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Could A Military Coup Benefit America?

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posted on Jun, 12 2006 @ 08:38 PM
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Reasons for A Coup
Dear ATS ever since I have grown a deep interest in politics and started to look beyond the stuff shown to millions on TV screens I have began a journey that has led me to the conclusion that government doesn’t like you.
I think that both sides are almost equally corrupted by lobbying and that the only real purpose served by lobbying is not to make their policies known but rather to use cutting edge propaganda (on which they spend hundreds of millions every election) to exploit ancient weaknesses in the human brain.

I’ve learnt that they are corrupted by the media and that men like Rupert Murdoch may control this many newspapers: www.ketupa.net...
I’ve learnt that countries like China and groups like friends of Israel can buy into these media empires so that their arguments can be served before what cannot be justified honestly and democratically to the people.

I’ve learnt that things like the Patriot Act in the US, the Parliamentary Regulatory Reform Act in the U.K www.saveparliament.org.uk... are here to limit the democratic protections of government.
Over here in the U.K trial by jury is becoming less common and I believe that men like Tony Blair call this “a 19th century legal system in the 21st century”. Meanwhile the DNA, eye scan figure prints and address demanded by I.D cards is only a matter of time away (2008 to be precise). www.no2id.net... And whilst the threat of terrorism may be real, and 7/7 bombings were terrible it is also true that no terrorist has ever held my right to leave this country hostage (unlike what my government will do if I want a U.K passport but want to leave the country. The free spirit of the BBC has been broken (following the sacking of its director Greg Dyke for accusing the government of “sexing up the war in Iraq”).
news.bbc.co.uk...
news.bbc.co.uk...

And I'm convinced that this is not just a U.K, Australian, Canadian, or New Zealand problem. It is an American problem in which most of the free world is following.

Your democratic representatives don’t even represent the public good as far as preventing communication companies extorting “undue” fees from websites. politics.abovetopsecret.com...
And its always the little things that keep me worrying, along with the many other things holding the march (or even the position of current freedom) way back in time. My view is that as long as most people are too busy or disillusioned to gain an interest in politics; our representatives and those that pull their strings will continue to get away with calling themselves a government. And it is my view that they are right.

As for the U.S military only the U.S people care about you. And that in itself allows you to be used as a political football. You think you are serving your country when all you are really serving is somebody else’s foreign policy. Is it Murdoch’s is it the other sh*** that pull the strings of our government? Or is it the lobby groups of smart places like Israel (a country high on your foreign policy, without question, for the best part of half a century). Maybe America has been need of a change for decades? But such a change never came. Changes don’t fall like apples from apple trees.
Yet its because of these people you are the targets of people like Al Qaeda and even though they, and other people maybe always be your enemies wouldn’t you be so much so stronger if you had the true will of the people (and not the expensive propaganda others pay for) behind you.
Right now the truth about the people who lead the good people in the military is this “your leaders would quite happily send you to die with a lie in your head” www.telegraph.co.uk.../news/2005/10/23/wirq23.xml
whilst simultaneously use you as a political football by denouncing anyone who questions, anyone who dares to doubt is in you or your countries interests. And ironically they call these people unpatriotic, even more ironically it actually works. They even say men who’ve been in uniform should not be allowed to express a political opinion.

There are many things wrong and there are many things in the constitution that urgently need changing or amending.
Here is what I wrote earlier; please read it…
politics.abovetopsecret.com...

Yet for decades regardless of whether Republican or Democratic got in things have carried on. Both parties are corrupt, both parties give America its bad name. Americans are Christian, Americans are generally good to each other and so on the face of it deserve their status within a great super power.
But it’s the demons who possess this once even greater great nation that put you to shame. It was them who got the Arabs to dub America “the Great Satan”.
And maybe there’s a bit of that demon in all of us? For as long the populace of any country fails to kick up a fuss so the trouble goes unchallenged so much at the expense of what was once even greater great land.
China is rising and it’s your leaders who are collaborating.
Freedom is deteriorating and this time it’s your leaders who are pioneering it.
A generation ago people perhaps would not have tolerated it. But the psychology of fear pioneered through such concepts as the war on terror keep today’s people quieter.

Reasons Against A Coup…
1. A military coup might not work
2. Who’s to know if whoever leads keeps their word (even if it was more than one person)?
3. And perhaps George Bush is a nice man in the same way Father Christmas might be real? (He is round Wal-Mart you know).

Those are the reasons against a coup. But what do you think? Will you be voting for another party this election? Who do you think other than Republicans and Democrats might win? Is there no big issue with corruption? Maybe the people who lead us are nice men with the interests of the nation before those who support them? Perhaps the interests of the nation are same as those who support them? (Could this perhaps explain the money exchanged to support them?).

If you saw troops invading Congress would you riot? Would you come out waving the flag and saying “these brave boys are traitors with only their own interests at heart?”

P.S I invoke my right to freedom of speech; and though I live in a country without a specific one I invoke my two fingers in ether case. And partly for legal reasons I would like to say this article is fair and balanced, and if you don’t like it’s on a public information board. So update me on why a coup might not be such a good idea, and maybe provide encouragement to others if it is. Just stay legal!!




posted on Jun, 13 2006 @ 08:36 AM
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Why would a military coup be a bad idea? Hmm...let's see. Mostly because military junta's have a real bad habit of not going away. Promising elections in a nebulous unknown future.

A military coup would certainly indicate that our representitive democracy is all but dead, perhaps beyond recovery.

I, for one, would never support a military coup. I think a military coup unlikely, possible perhaps, but not likely. Most of America's soldiers are far too civilian in their outlooks to by into a coup.



posted on Jun, 13 2006 @ 09:24 AM
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What about if it had some simple demands such as the ones I’m proposing for a constitution?
What about if the government continues to take away your civil liberties e.g. proposes a U.K style constitution or even I.D card scheme?

Could there ever come a point when a enough is enough? Or does the combined rule of "DemoRep" have an unlimited warrant in most peoples minds?

In my opinion there might not be very many good people in politics, but there's plenty in everyday life and yes careers like the military (probably more so as people are often promoted for their good nature). After all being nice never meant you couldn't kill; it just means you can get along with other people.

If you can't support a coup, and if there's virtually no limit to the amount of stuff people are prepared to accept from DemoRep then what other ways would you suggest of rebelling? Or perhaps rebelling also something you would virtually never support?
I fully understand where you’re coming from though. Once a coups started you have to think how to get rid of it if it won't keep its word. So yeah totally valid point but unless the people in the military were communists or something like that (which I doubt) I kind of wonder how much worse life under a military rule would be? And if anyone ever brings back National-Service (that’s Subscription) then there will probably be no difference at all (in my mind at least anyway).

P.S DemoRep obviously means Democrats Republicanism (or “Demo Representation”!!)



posted on Jun, 13 2006 @ 11:04 AM
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When is enough enough? Oddly enough, I've thought about this a time, or five, and the conclusion I've come to is this...I really have no idea. I'm not saying that to be a smart ass either. Any changes fomented by gov't. effects everyone differently, the so-called decline in civil liberties has not effected my in any shape or form. At least not noticably, and trust me when I say that I have and do watch.

It sounds like a platitude when I say I have no idea when enough will be enough, but I'll know it when I see it. I cannot really say more than that.

As far as the "DemoRep" rule is concerned, I do have severe problems with it, and would support a third party that had any sort of a chance, and I do infact support a couple of different political parties, but for the immediate future, I really don't see a third party catching on just yet. In time, yes, hopefully not too late.

The national ID has been proposed here in the States, and to the best of my knowledge it was shot down in flames. I might be mistaken, it would hardly be the first time, about that. But I think that is what happened to it.

What are the changes you propose? Did I miss them somewhere along the way? Let's hear them.



posted on Jun, 13 2006 @ 07:27 PM
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Originally posted by Liberal1984
If you saw troops invading Congress would you riot?

I'd volunteer to be in their execution squads. Anyone taking up arms against the government is a traitor, period. Starting down the path of violent revolution is dangerous and will result in the break down of society. Its during such a revolution that a counter-coup will start, and that will be as viscious as many people seem to think the government's current actions are. Anyone engaging in war against the government is engaging in war against the people.


P.S I invoke my right to freedom of speech;

In case you didn't realize, the right to free speech does not protect violent revolution against the government. The consitution does not permit war against it.

Having said that and to be clear, I don't have a problem with you discussing it.



posted on Jun, 13 2006 @ 08:01 PM
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Here are my proposed additions to an updated U.S Constitution (or any constitution)
politics.abovetopsecret.com...

I agree seagull that its hard to see any differences in the political living of almost any American since before 9/11 or even (perhaps) the 1960’s. Quite frankly unless we have a North Korean style dictatorship, a Nazi state, or just one where everyone has to waist their time saluting some “great leadership” I don’t see things changing for Americans that much any time soon.
However there are things that are coming (or which at least might come) that will begin to change that.
1. Subscription (is becoming ever more possible due to seemingly ever greater recruitment shortages).
2. Bigger gap between rich and poor
3. Greater political dissatisfaction with DemoRep
4. Higher defence expenditure
5. Staged terrorist attacks? Unlikely because even if there is something in all the conspiracies; it’s very unlikely they would get caught.
6. Greater political surveillance (law abiding citizens will shrug that one of saying “I have nothing to hide”.
7. Freedom of speech (on anti terror grounds but hard to bring about due to the constitution).


So it’s really the first four and particularly the first three on that list which are most likely to have to both have their day and affect Americans most. Ironically it’s the first one which is most likely to be approved by people in the military. Or is it? Do they long for a socially free America or will they buy into the predictable arguments that it will cut such things as yob-criminal behaviour? I guess only time will tell.

What’s interesting is there are already many things that ordinary Americans are missing out on which are not on that list because they aren’t so noticeable. E.g…

1. A national health service (it’s a stupid lie of an argument that America can’t have one when most countries that do spend less than 10% of all tax revenue on it (Britain is a bit of an exception as its modernising a notoriously flawed health care model without actually changing that model (mostly for political reasons). Yet we still have a national education system and that don’t cost much at all: budget2006.treasury.gov.uk...
The only thing that really annoys me is the “social protection” budget (i.e. benefits to people like single mums who often have more kids so they can take some of that benefit money). It’s very un Darwinian, and it still means kids often live in poverty (so be it at the hands of their parent(s).
Another thing about the U.K budget is the defence expenditure. It’s only 29bn but with that we have a sizeable army (over 100,000) a reasonable navy, air force, over 192 nuclear weapons nuclearweaponarchive.org...
This arsenal is going to be replaced: www.oxfordresearchgroup.org.uk...
And enough plutonium stockpiles to make literally thousands more. And like you we have all the facilities necessary for an advanced biological warfare programme if one was ever needed

2. National Education System. Education is one of the most important investments for any economy, and society; but in some states in America it is pretty third world. America would be pretty third world too if it wasn’t for all those kids born lucky enough to be in more generous states, or with richer parents.
3. Greater social welfare (ok its one of my main criticisms of the U.K budget but I believe it’s so small per person in America; that the same should be true with yours. The idea of people having to go to a church for social support sickens me. Its still economy money being spent, only this time a “little” bit gets “lost” to indoctrination.

4. Like most Western nations (including Britain) American also suffers from an urgent lack of media competition. This probably isn’t so bad at making a difference to ordinary people lives as the other above things. But it is irritating. Right wing “bastards” like Rupert Murdoch are usually to blame (see his 175newspaper holding here www.ketupa.net...). It’s so bad that many people in America seem to think that channels such as CNN are left wing, when they are anything but once you take them out of relation to anything other than strictly mainstream U.S politics-media reporting.

5. This brings me to one of my final complaints about U.S government. It is very corrupt. People call it lobbying but only a blind man can’t see that lobbying isn’t a deliberate legal form of corrupting. It seems to benefit just about any big business or even minor billionaire in America; in fact almost anyone accept the ordinary American people. Of course if it did benefit everyone there would be no need to lobby much in the first place. However the corruption isn’t a U.S only problem as though in Britain total donations tend to be quite small we suffer at the same hands of the people who own much of our media (in fact they are often exactly the same people). Honesty is a permanent problem in all dictatorships and all democracies but the idea of sending people to die with a lie in their head wouldn’t make me very happy if I was in the military. There are also allegations that Israel is a bit of “Cuckoo” in U.S foreign policy. Not true? Well at least take a look at this link about Aipac (one of the most powerful lobby groups United States en.wikipedia.org...

I might to be too happy if I joined the military to serve my country, only to discover my military spends most its time defending another country-a country so small that on most globes you can hardly see its name. A country of only just over 7 million people look… www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...&_Culture/newpop.html
Wow as far as gaining western attention in relation to size Israel must top the list. Even Palestine only has an estimated 10 million people en.wikipedia.org...
Now ain’t that amazing 10 plus 7 million people = what percentage of our news coverage? Lobbies what percentage of our government? How much oil does Israel and Palestine combined? To put this into perspective Iraq’s population stands at 28.8 million, we have an army there and “we have killed” millions through UN sanctions… en.wikipedia.org...
P.S The above link is great shows population of all countries of the world (only just found it).

6. Military Leadership: Perhaps one of the “worlds worst planners?” is Secretary of Defence? It is he who led America into Iraq undermanned by about 3 to 1, it is he who said “stuff happens” whilst Iraqi peasants looted Iraq’s infrastructure (including burnt books thousands of years old in their national library). This guy (in the views of many) is a disgrace but his position is maintained by people like Bush precisely because he is corrupt and immoral. See this (genuine) old picture which I still think says a lot about Western foreign policy under himself:
www.bronek.org...

www.commondreams.org...
It’s annoying because some political humour site decided to use it. In my view something looses its political humour when it’s actually a historical artefact but do Google search “Saddam handshake photo” and this what you get… www.google.co.uk...

So yeah if I were in the military I would be kind of pissed at having this guy as my secretary of defence; then again being me I probably wouldn’t be in the military until quite a few other things had also changed.
This might be why a military coup which some believe to be long overdue hasn’t happened before because people like myself won’t join the military unless subscription-national service forced us.

So ATS America do you agree with me that “enough is enough now” or do you think you should stay with DemoRep? till at least things get a little worse?
Of course I can’t condone a military coup because even if it was entirely legal for me to do so I'm not sure about what coup I would be condoning. Therefore I personally genuinely do not condone a coup without knowing more, and being more confident about where one might be heading. And I would feel badly for anyone involved if they were executed for treason because it failed.
That said I would argue that “enough is enough” for their to be a coup now; but only the right sort of coup (i.e. one genuinely focussed on the welfare of the American people). Do you agree?



posted on Jun, 14 2006 @ 11:22 AM
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9-11 was a military coup. Great fun eh. I agree on the UK politics thing but I'm afraid that 9-11 is a red-pill job of a different kind altogether, though of course very much related to fuelling more wars.



posted on Jun, 14 2006 @ 12:47 PM
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ed 209 You and millions of people like you might be right that there is a conspiracy behind 9/11. However there's so many conspiracies its hard to know which one (if any) might be true.

But for the sake of sanity let's step back from all that. Let's assume that there was no conspiracy at all (something maybe extremely hypothetical I know). Then how do we assess 9/11?

One way might be to call it a Political Coup and that is something I think just about everyone (including non conspiracy believers) can agree on.
Was it a political coup for the terrorists? Well don't know about you but if I were Osama Bin Laden I would have put that attack back a little bit in my calendar.

Because every time George Bush makes a speech he usually refers to the threat of "terrorism" at least once to help justify one policy or another in the minds of the American people.
I think 9/11 was a political coup for the Republican Party (and no that does not mean I think they did it ether). I think 9/11 was probably a news scoop for all the media but particularly the right wing media like Fox News (as the terrorism issue is on Fox type media a lot more than the other News providers). And no that does not mean I think Rupert Murdoch planned it.

I think the way the Republican and Democrat Party have merged into DemoRep is also a political coup. Probably the biggest one in the history of America (or at least the history I care to know). What do you make of that?



posted on Jun, 14 2006 @ 01:12 PM
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Unity is good, as long as it's not about shutting up the truth. Realisticly I don't think it matters if there are parties or not, as long as there's people in place in existing govts who will make the best decisions.

I don't see the difference in something like 'what is the best way to design the circuit paths for this particular microchip' with any political decisions. There is just so much corruption infecting politics that what it is actually about has become obscured. It's not that there is just one way, it's that there are best ways to get things done, including knowing when not to do anything at all. Government is about at core collecting tax money and spending it on keeping metropolis' running properly (that always means sustainably) and connected to one another - that's it. That's what taxes are meant to be for - so we have places to go to and if things happen to go wrong then they will be put right again immediately. And we do that here, and then we expand into space and take our working model out there too, and yes - there'll be lots of other things of interest to discover, like dimensional things. That kind of thing requires a sound home base, which by and large has not been begun yet.


As to 9-11, it reminded me of a warning I read years ago about a plan to take over the US govt. from within. It seemed to be stopped in time excepting the part that did happen, which was 9-11. I see the Gulf wars and what relates to those and 9-11 as being inter-related parts of the same coup that weren't entirely removed from playing out in reality, as it were, - for example they are tied to the decisions even earlier on that made industry dependant upon fossil fuels. To me it looks like the same scratch on the record - so when the record plays through the scratch will show up and there'll be a problem, then it will be gone for a while before the next revolution of the record where it will again show up. The record being timespace of course, and all that makes that up.



posted on Jun, 14 2006 @ 01:35 PM
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You make some interesting points and I agree that the current political climate in the west has become very detrimental to your economic and political freedoms, and more so, our consciouss; we seem to have lost the right to thought and critical thinking. But, to ask for a military coup in lieu seems even more perilous. Since when does a military coup benefit America, esp when the Military/industrial-defence complex has become one of the most powerfull collusions on the planet? We've seen scores of documents such as Operation Northwoods that point us to a direction in which we find our military working in interests of not our people, but of others, but of an exclusionary department more than willing to sacrafice it's very own citizenry to justify wars abroad; i'm not really sure why this is your metric for success.

Luxifero



posted on Jun, 18 2006 @ 08:02 PM
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Luxifero my only metre for success is how pissed the people of the west get, and how motivated they become to do something about it. Unlike the state I am not interested in hardcore deception, but I've always been interested in knowing the world better and getting others to do the same.
Now you are right that many of the people who would lead a coup would probably make things even worse than they are now. That said better ways of doing things could still appeal to the humanity beneath the most senior levels of military leadership. But I agree that if there ever was a coup today the odds against it being a good one would be heavily stacked.
Then again if people were thinking about a coup perhaps it would become more popularist and perhaps these odds would start to change?

The only thing that makes a coup now such a bad idea is the sort of people who would be leading it. Hay if it happened tomorrow I wouldn’t be surprised if it were George Bush, Kerry or someone between their families.
But if these fundamentals change then so to would the nature of the coup. Still risky and thank god it’s still theoretical rather than a practical question, otherwise it would be proving quite a headache (to deal with that is).

Personally I will always be a canon in waiting for change (providing that is I’m sure that change will come in the form of progress). If I were in your military I would be open to these ideas should the evidence for it meet the need for bravery. I think people are right to say there would not be enough support now. Which brings us back to that interesting question: When is enough a enough?
More importantly what other options are there? Create a third party? How can you get it into second place?


df1

posted on Jul, 13 2006 @ 10:58 AM
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Originally posted by Nygdan
Anyone engaging in war against the government is engaging in war against the people.

The colonial tories took this same position. Im glad the tories didnt win.




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