The Truth part 2, page 4
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reply posted on 13-6-2006 @ 05:04 PM by jaguarmike
Originally posted by Enrikez
Interesting, Mike.

I've heard that OT's don't get cancer, that's very nice that you haven't seen any with cancer either.

Can you please clarify for me what you mean when you say that you 'haven't studied the Tech. enough"?

And what is meant by the term 'oppressive people'?

Also, I am curious as to what a 1.1 covert hostile is.

Would you also be able to expound on scientology's highest ethical standards? I know, as a Christian currently, that the ten commandments are our base ethical standards. Does scientology have anything that is somewhat comparable?

I have also heard the term 'having to have before you do' used in relation to scientology. What are Scientologists required to do before management releases the next OT levels?

Have you, personnaly had any trouble with your scientology training? What exactly are the gains promised by Scientology?

Thanks again in advance for your answers.


*Naysayers, I have already explained why Scientology is not free, your questions despite my answers show that the question you ask is not really why you disagree with Scientology.


Also just a footnote on all of this, I am not LRH, and did not write the tech. Find out for yourself the exact definitions- I am spreading this information to pique your interest but I should not be quoted verbatim because my word usage is different than the tech. definitions because I do not have them memorized. Whenever I say "(exact quote, Technical Dictionary)" it is verbatim, when I do not, don't quote me.

1) Haven't studied the tech. enough means that I haven't studied enough of the source material- that can be lectures, congresses, books, etc. We call this technology, tech. for short, because it is just that: spritual technology. I have gaps because of this.

2) (exact quote, Dianetics and Scientology Technical Dictionary, page 415)

"SUPPRESSIVE PERSON, 1. he's solving a present time problem which hasn't in actual fact existed for the last many trillenia in most cases, and yet he is taking the actions in present time which solve that problem. The guy's totally stuck in present time, that is the whole anatomy of psychosis. (SH Spec 61, 6505C18) 2. a person who rewards only down statistics and never rewards an up statistic. He goofs up or villifies any effort to help anybody and particularly knifes with violence anything calculated to make human beings more powerful or intelligent. A suppressive automatically and immediately will curve any betterment activity into something evil or bad. (SH Spec 73, 6608C02) 3. a person who doesn't get case gain because of continuing overts. (SH Spec 67, 6509C21) 4. the person is in a mad, howling situation of some yesteryear and is "handling it" by commiting overt acts today. I say condition of yesteryear but this case thinks it's today. (HCO PL 5 Apr 65) 5. an SP is a no-confront case because, not being in his own valence he has no viewpoint from which to erase anything. That is all an SP is. (HCO PL 20 Oct 67) 6. those who are destructively antisocial. (HCO PL 30 Aug 70) 7. a person with certain behavior characteristics and who suppresses other people in his vicinity and those other people when he suppresses them become PTS or potential trouble sources. (SH Spec 78, 6608C25) 8. is one that actively seeks to suppress or damage Scn or a Scientologist by suppressive acts. (ISE, p. 48) 9. a person who has had a counter-postulate to the pc you are handling. (SH Spec 68, 6510C14) Abbr. SP"

These people are 2 1/2% of any population (SP's) and 20% of any population is PTS to them.

3) What is a 1.1 covert hostile? These people I actually don't like more than SP's, but that's just me personally. SP's if they are really good are hard to spot, but generally you can figure it out. 1.1's are easy to spot too, but make more of a mess because their actions are covert, whereas SP's when they do bad stuff are more overt... however SP's still do covert actions.

(exact quote, Dianetics and Scientology Technical Dictionary, page 95)
"COVERT HOSTILITY, around 1.1 on the tone scale we reach the level of covert hostility. Here the hatred of the individual has been socially and individually censured to a point where it has been suppressed, and the individual no longer dares demonstrate hate as such. He yet possesses sufficient energy to express some feeling on the matter, and so what hatred he feels comes forth covertly. All manner of subterfuges may be resorted to. The person may claim to love others and to have the good of others as his foremost interest; yet, at the same moment, he works, unconsciously or otherwise, to injure or destroy the lives and reputations of people and also to destroy property. (SOS, p.56)"

These are the spies, the backstabbers, the people who smile in your face even though they just did a horrible thing to you, these are the gossipers, etc.

4) As for this question, Scientology ethical standards that are comparable to the ten commandments... hmmm I know there are codes like this, but I don't have a copy of it right now. I'd try the main Scientology website at www.scientology.org...

5) Having to have before you do? I don't know- you'll have to find out what this means. As for releasing new OT levels, new OT levels are released when a certain number of people reach the previous OT level. I think they are on OT9 now, or close to OT9. There are a lot of OT levels, each one adds so much more and makes you so much more complete, powerful, and able.

6) Have I personally had trouble with Scientology training? Yes, I have. It was a combination of my past history and about two people at my org. I've handled it, and now am ok. Just because I had a problem with two people, does not mean I had a problem with LRH or Scientology. People are people, and people make mistakes sometimes. The gains promised? Anything you can think of that is positive. Erase negative feelings, gain awareness, gain intelligence, clear up problems, infinity, everything.

I'll answer more questions.

*And to the mods, this information is needed in order to give a full picture on why i'm posting here.

[edit on 13-6-2006 by jaguarmike]


reply posted on 14-6-2006 @ 02:43 AM by Gemwolf
@JaguarMike.
Sir, I must give this to you. You are patient. Very. You face blatant attacks on what you believe in, but you stick by what you believe in.

But I still cannot agree with the idea of Scientology.

Willing to handle some more issues?
1. Will you receive any money for ATS members you recruit for Scientology?

2. You said

The funniest part is, the more you move up the bridge to OT, the easier it is to make money and LOTS of money.


And later to the question why Scientology is not free:


It costs money to continue on and to run any organization. I wish it was free too, and I totally can understand where it should be. The fact is, right now it can't be, because if it were free, the organization would crumble. Money=Survival to the sane and ethical individual.


Now, we have a conundrum here... It's likely that the guys running Scientology are at higher OT levels, right? Then it should be ridiculously easy for them to "make money", right? So they won't have financial problems forcing them to charge for Scientology courses? Which is correct. The higher-level guys do make lots of money. They take the money from the new recruits and the lower level members... YOUR money JaguarMike! But it's no problem, because once you paid them enough money to reach the higher level YOU will also make lost of money, because you will be taking the money from new recruits and lower level members... Ingenious I must say. Much like a pyramid scheme...?

3. They charge money (for "courses") because it takes money to run any organization, right? As you said at point 2 above...
Is it not true that the Church of Scientology has Real Estates all over the world to the value of millions of dollars? The amount can only be guessed. No one knows for sure...
Scientology is sponsoring the DIANETIC's car in the NASCAR race, right? I can only guess how much such a sponsorship costs...
Now wouldn't it be best for a Non-profitable organization to spent this kind of money on its members or consider bringing down the costs of courses in order make levels more attainable for its members? Clearly they are making a profit, yes? So I ask again... Why charge money for "The Truth"?

4. Enrikez asked you how much money it would cost him. You avoided this question. Just give us a ballpark figure... How much does it cost to go through the levels?

5. You said: (Quoted from Dianetics and Scientology Technical Dictionary, page 415)

1. he's solving a present time problem which hasn't in actual fact existed for the last many trillenia in most cases, and yet he is taking the actions in present time which solve that problem. The guy's totally stuck in present time, that is the whole anatomy of psychosis. (SH Spec 61, 6505C18)

Now the Church of Scientology is absolutely against psychiatry, right? Now the above quotation sounds a bit like psychology to me "...anatomy of psychosis..." reminds me of something I read in my psychology books back in the days. Hubbard was fast to point his finger at psychiatry, but then uses the same theories and terminology in his own books?

6. From the Church of Scientology FAQ on Psychiatry:

2) psychiatry is not a science and has no proven methods to justify the billions of dollars of government funds that are poured into it;

This is very funny. Scientology has no proven methods/results either. We can change a couple of words in the above statement to look like this:
Scientology is not a religion and has no proven methods to justify the billions of dollars of member funds that are poured into it;
Now that makes a lot more sense to me. It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Isn't it true that everything you base your "believes" on was "revealed" by the science fiction writer Hubbard? Isn't it a bit naive to put all your money, believes and trust in the words of ONE man?

7.

In a 1982 bulletin entitled "Pain and Sex", Hubbard declares that "pain and sex were the INVENTED TOOLS of degradation", having been devised eons ago by psychiatrists "who have been on the [time] track a long time and are the sole cause of decline in this universe."

Pain was invented by psychiatrists? Pain was invented by "people" (Hubbard said that psychiatrists played a role of assisting Xenu's genocide of 75 million years ago)? All living things experience pain. It’s a bodily function to protect your body from harm and possible death.
Sex was also invented by psychiatrists? Thank you psychiatrists! At least the ensured the future of all living beings. How on earth would we have multiplied if it weren’t for sex? Cloning? I can only imagine. I'm glad they invented sex. At least we've got something to do when there's nothing on TV.

I can go on like this, but I'm running out of characters, so I'll get to the point...

SOCIOLOGICAL CHARACTERISTICS OF A CULT:
Authoritarianism - This is the acceptance of an authority figure who often uses mind-control techniques on their followers for control. The word of these authority figures (founder or prophet) are considered ultimate.

Exclusivism - Cults usually believe that they alone have the truth as opposed to other Christian denominations. Some cults practice communal living (some religious groups that practice communal living are not cults) to make it easier to maintain control over cult members.

Dogmatism - Cults believe that they alone have the truth and they are the only ones to interpret the Bible correctly.

Close-mindedness - Cult members are so devoted to their cult that they are unwilling to even consider any other point of view even if they know they are wrong.

Susceptibility - Many people that join cults are gullible and some are psychologically vulnerable. This goes hand in hand with close-mindedness in that they will ignore anything that contradicts their claims while practicing blind faith that is absent of sound reasoning.

Isolationism - Extreme cults create fortified boundaries and are hard on those who are thinking or are attempting to desert. Isolationism creates fear among cult members to obey their leaders giving them even more control.

Antagonism - Isolationism leads to antagonism toward the outside world. Other Christian groups are considered evil and bad.

Source

JaguarMike, please check out this Checklist... Also read Cults and How to identifiy a Cult...

Please mate. This is now man to man in all seriousness. You are in a cult my friend. They are playing you the fool. It's never to late to get out. Please reconsider your membership. Ignore what they said to you in the handbooks. Think for yourself. Use logic. What feels right and wrong in your heart?

Good luck.
Gem.


reply posted on 14-6-2006 @ 08:55 PM by jaguarmike
Originally posted by StickyG
Okay, since all the questions in my first reply on page two received zero answers, I'll just simply ask these without any other content to confuse you with.


If you don't recruit people into scientology, is it still possible to reach the higher levels?

How much money do you receive from the church for each person you bring in and how much do you receive for each person they bring in?

Are you familiar with the recruitment tactics of MLM (Multi-Level Marketing) companies such as Amway and do you see a similarity with the way Scientology recruits and rewards its members?

Thanks,

StickyG



I don't work for Scientology. Will I reach higher levels if I recruit no one (aka OT?) sure... but why would I want to do that? It isn't even about recruitment, it's about telling all of you where to go to get the information- you don't have to work for Scn to get information who told you that? There are TONS of highly successful people where finance is concered that go to Organizations, FLAG, etc.

I care about people even when getting rediculed by the people I am trying to help, I mean in the grand scheme of things man, it doesn't matter what people say to me- it's like an ant yelling at a human saying "don't step on me!! ahhh!!" that's all I hear when people talk badly about my group.

Yes I am familiar with MLM they probably stole and altered Scn's way of recruiting- we are not talking about recruiting here though, I am offering you knowledge and how getting into the organization will give you the answers you want- recruiting would say go work for them. Would I like you to work for them? Of course, but that is not why i'm posting- i'm posting to get you to realize the truth is out there and to go in and find out for yourself.

My goal is to get more people who are starving for the truth and ufo knowledge into a group that will give them all the asnwers they want and crave- that is the extent of what I care about on this forum. I went into deeper detail in my other posts, but this one is more direct.
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