Hamas Vows Qassam Offensive!

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
have been trying to goad the Palestinains for a while now since after Hamas was voted in they were keeping to the truce and obviously making them look bad as far as them constantly accusing them of being a terrorist group that wasn't terrorizing

Are you kidding? They lasted, what, a month or two??? Without any official calls for war and attacks???

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
have been trying to goad the Palestinains for a while now since after Hamas was voted in they were keeping to the truce and obviously making them look bad as far as them constantly accusing them of being a terrorist group that wasn't terrorizing

Are you kidding? They lasted, what, a month or two??? Without any official calls for war and attacks???

Hamas maintained a Ceasefire for over 18 months despite all the Israeli killings.

Wow, a whole year and a half. THey must be saints. Just long enough to get elected too eh?

How about they sign a peace treaty, or actually go to war with their 'occupying enemy'???

Originally posted by Nygdan
Wow, a whole year and a half. THey must be saints.

Just long enough to get elected too eh?

How about they sign a peace treaty, or actually go to war with their 'occupying enemy'???

Yes a whole year and a half, which is more than can be said for the blood thirsty Zionist leadership of Israel who have murdered scores of men, women and children without pause. I cannot see any reason why Hamas should stick to its ceasefire when Israel continues to terrorise the Palestinian people. I dont agree that Hamas should target civilians, but I can empathize with their lashing out.

Israel cannot survive a peace treaty with Palestine, and it knows it. A few decades would see Israel become Arabic simply via demographics, much like some other Western nations. Therefore Israel goads, provokes, murders, extorts, blackmails and terrorizes the Palestinians without relent so that no effective peace deal can be signed.

Also when the inevitable Palestinian retaliation occurs it can then point to this in the forever obedient Western media as being the reason that Palestinians dont deserve peace. Which is then lapped up by the hordes of the uninformed that bleat on about how Israel can do no wrong and is the perpetual bloody victim!

Israel is a disgrace, a disgrace that literally gets away with murder because every single UN resolution critical of it gets veto'd by the United States. It is the sole cause of the Arab World's problem with the "West", and I for one am tired of people defending the indefencible.

[edit on 13/6/06 by subz]

Ok, so i have been lurking on ATS for well over three years now but i never post, call me a sponge of sorts, taking in all the information no matter how radical and insane, but now i feel i must post

You have voted subz for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

A little background on me, i have no religious belief what so ever, but i do agree that people are entitled to believe what ever they wish, so i have no religious bias what so ever, however...

Subz is bang on the money here. The jew's have been terrorising the surrounding area since we came in and carved up the middle east to actually give them somewhere to live. They have used illegal force on many occasions to get more and more land which they are not even entitled too, and i cannot understand why America plough's so much money into them.

Half of this war on terror wouldnt have even started if they hadnt of been so greedy in the first place.

I cant see the Zionist leadership of Israel being bloodthirsty by any stretch of the imagination in the face of the continued bombardment by the palastinian military i think the next step is a war declaration by israel.

as far as the ownership of the land it was israel's before and now it is again, one could say that the arab's have been occupier's for the last 2000 years prior to 1948

Originally posted by Pottypotsworth
Ok, so i have been lurking on ATS for well over three years now but i never post, call me a sponge of sorts, taking in all the information no matter how radical and insane, but now i feel i must post

Welcome aboard the good ship Reason

Originally posted by Pottypotsworth
You have voted subz for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Thank you!

Originally posted by Pottypotsworth
A little background on me, i have no religious belief what so ever, but i do agree that people are entitled to believe what ever they wish, so i have no religious bias what so ever, however...

Subz is bang on the money here. The jew's have been terrorising the surrounding area since we came in and carved up the middle east to actually give them somewhere to live. They have used illegal force on many occasions to get more and more land which they are not even entitled too, and i cannot understand why America plough's so much money into them.

Half of this war on terror wouldnt have even started if they hadnt of been so greedy in the first place.

I too am not a religious person, perhaps its our absence of religion that allows us to view this conflict for exactly what it is.

The Palestinians need to unilaterally declare statehood and claim the UN approved Palestine border as their own. They should then wage an all out offensive against Israel until they get their UN approved land back. Then they should call a unilateral armistice and sit back and allow the World to see Israel slaughter without restraint to reaquire their once-occupied territories. It would not take long before Israel used up its perpetual victim card and can be seen to be the beligerent and bigoted nation that it is.

Originally posted by subz
The Palestinians need to unilaterally declare statehood and claim the UN approved Palestine border as their own. They should then wage an all out offensive against Israel until they get their UN approved land back. Then they should call a unilateral armistice and sit back and allow the World to see Israel slaughter without restraint to require their once-occupied territories.

Some solution there. What ever happened to giving honest negotiations a shot?
Both sides have set impossible steps for the other side to achieve, thus the status quo continues. Both sides will have to make concessions, yet neither will make the first real step. To say only one side has to make concessions is counterproductive.

Being realistic, your solution has .1% chance of happening. Should the Palestinian Authority declare statehood and wage an all out offensive against Israel what do you think would happen?

Being that half the current government still will not recognize Israel's right to exist, what makes you think that Israel will negotiate anything with them? What does Israel gain from any negotiations right now when Hamas states that they will use any negotiations as merely a stepping stone for the liberation of "all Palestine" ?

Originally posted by pavil
Some solution there. What ever happened to giving honest negotiations a shot?
Both sides have set impossible steps for the other side to achieve, thus the status quo continues. Both sides will have to make concessions, yet neither will make the first real step. To say only one side has to make concessions is counterproductive.

I agree with you, negotiations should always be the prefered solution to any conflict. Yet, there can be no negotiations with Israel. They are not a genuine partner for peace, to quote Olmert.

Why would Israel want to negotiate when they have more land than originally approved by the UN? Why would Israel want to negotiate away the situation whereby they have an enemy that grants them a casus belli on a daily basis? Why would Israel negotiate when they have a vastly superior military? Why would Israel negotiate when the United States gives them unqualified support in the UNSC?

It is not in Israel's best interest to sign a peace treaty with the Palestinians. Israel's best interests are served by keeping the Palestinians in a state of perpetual chaos, terror and anger. They placate the rest of the World, sans the US, by saying all they want is peace. Yet they do everything in their power to illicit violence from the Palestinians.

They know the Palestinians do not have any armed forces. They know that their only means of retaliation is asymetrical warfare so they launch airstrikes, assassinations, bombings and invasions against this weak nation to get them to retaliate.

If the Israelis were genuine in wanting to negotiate a peace deal they would not break international law by assassinating Palestinians. They would not send tanks into refugee camps. They would not order artillery to be fired into residential areas. They would not withold tax funds that they collect on behalf of the Palestinian Authority. They would not shoot CHILDREN for throwing stones at armoured vehicles.

Before you bring up the attacks on Israeli civilians, let me make myself clear. This too is unacceptable. There is no justification for murdering civilians, period. That goes for both sides and for Israel - a modern, nuclear armed nation - to stoop to the level of common terrorists is abhorrent. Israel has the international clout, means, funds and armed strength to not have to resort to murdering civilians in refugee camps and residential areas.

If they truly wanted peace they should fully return to the UN authourised borders and then let the rest of the World keep the borders respected. Do you not think that if Israel returned to their UN authourised borders and ceased killing Palestinians, but still were attacked by the Palestinians that the rest of the World would not be on Israel's side? I know I would be on their side if they did just that.

Originally posted by pavil
Being realistic, your solution has .1% chance of happening. Should the Palestinian Authority declare statehood and wage an all out offensive against Israel what do you think would happen?

Being realistic, my solution has no chance of success, I dont know about chance of happening. Israel has an advanced, modern, nuclear armed forces. They can easily repell any Palestinian armed action. Thats why Israel has no justified reason for maintaining its occupation of Palestine and parts of Lebanon/Syria. They should be returned or claimed by Israel and allow the international community to intervene on that reality, instead of claiming to merely occupy it nearly 40 years after the War ended.

Originally posted by pavil
Being that half the current government still will not recognize Israel's right to exist, what makes you think that Israel will negotiate anything with them? What does Israel gain from any negotiations right now when Hamas states that they will use any negotiations as merely a stepping stone for the liberation of "all Palestine" ?

Israel would gain nothing by genuinely negotiating with the Palestinians. They have the complete upperhand in the situation as it currently stands. Thats why its a complete joke when they pretend to want to negotiate. The Palestinians know the Israelis are not genuine in wanting to negotiate, thats why it has produced nothing in nearly 20 years. The only recourse the Palestinians have is asymetrical warfare.

Originally posted by The PieMaN
Pavilion
You are right it is from both sides, but how can you blame the ineffectiveness of the PA if basically they are broke and unable to even pay government workers?

If I were a Palestinian, which I am not, I would be asking my government why they are broke. They is a reason that aid was curtailed. Whose is to blame for the cutoff in aid? It might just be that the behavior of the newly elected Palestinian government is to blame. I would remember that next election, again, if I were a Palestinian.

Originally posted by pavil
If I were a Palestinian, which I am not, I would be asking my government why they are broke. They is a reason that aid was curtailed. Whose is to blame for the cutoff in aid? It might just be that the behavior of the newly elected Palestinian government is to blame. I would remember that next election, again, if I were a Palestinian.

Excuse me?

The behaviour of the newly elected Palestinian government? You mean sticking to a ceasefire despite repeated provocations by the Israelis? You mean not relenting to international pressure to recognize the nation that has persecuted your people for the last 50 years? You mean not ceding to every demand made by Israel, whilst they make no such reciprocation? You mean actually thinking they have legitmacy after being publically elected by the Palestinian people?

Now that the Israelis have blow up a family that was playing on a beach "by accident" Hamas has called an end to their unilateral ceasefire. Why should they continue to adhere to the ceasefire when Israel didnt even stop to take a breath from killing Palestinian civilians?

Israel and the United States attempted to blackmail the Hamas government by saying; if you do not bend to our will your civilians will starve to death. Would you think more of Hamas if they gave up the struggle to get Israel to stop killing their civilians and stealing their land? What a moral high ground to be on may I add, using the starvation of civilians as a weapon to "negotiate" with.

Make no mistake, Israel and the United States "is to blame for the cutoff in aid" for the Palestinian civilians. That aid is to feed and take care of the civilians who are in danger of dying since Israel bombs their infrastructure, takes their farm land, blockades their ports, blocks roads and lets shipments of produce rot at checkpoints.

Hamas was elected because Fatah rorted the Palestinian people and played the Israeli's game of sustained and protracted conflict. A game whom's design is perpetual conflict with the Palestinians to make a peace process impossible, and attempts to rationalize the occupation of the Palestinian land for good.

Israel wants to live by the sword? It will also die by the sword.

[edit on 13/6/06 by subz]

That's quite the axe you seem to be grinding there Subz.

Besides being simply inaccurate and hate-filled, you kind of leave out the some key ingredients.

For starters, a reasoning person would have to ask themselves, why the 'Palestinians' are NOT able to take care of themselves. Why is it these guys despite endless years... are not getting geared up and taking care of basic needs of their own peoples and families.

Why is it they seem to only know how to do three things...

-Stick their hands out and begging...
-Grow enormous families without any way to even begin to take care of them...
- Fabricate endless lies and faux docudramas/scenarios to attempt to hide what they are really doing.

Making peace is NOT that hard.

Egypt has done it.

Jordon has done it.

Why is it the 'Palestinians' are so incapable of getting it done?

I've got to give you one thing though. Israel is entirely at fault...

For not truly defending themselves.

Golemania, youget my Way Above.

Israel tried it both ways- fighting the Palestinians didn't work, because the whole world started whining about defending themselves.

Israel tried giving them autonomy, and the Palestinians managed to screw that up, too. In addition to fighting a low-intensity civil war at the moment, they are also picking fights with the neighbor who graciously decided to let them have a chunk of their country.

This is what appeasement gets you.

DE

Now don't get carried away Subz, while I do agree with many of your comments concerning Israel, I see no reason to fan the flames of mayhem & murder by either side.

For all those who decry the polarization within the U.S. (between the left & right), I would advocate taking a good long look at Israel to see just how extreme such differences of opinion can become. The religous fundamentalists within Israel have only impressed me with their greed and un-willingness to join in a national compromise. We tend to blame everything on the Zionists, but that tendency is far from the whole truth. Israel struggles daily with the repurcusions of their own schizms.

Originally posted by golemina
That's quite the axe you seem to be grinding there Subz.

Besides being simply inaccurate and hate-filled, you kind of leave out the some key ingredients.

I hate the murdering of civilians, wow what a monster I must be.

Originally posted by golemina
For starters, a reasoning person would have to ask themselves, why the 'Palestinians' are NOT able to take care of themselves. Why is it these guys despite endless years... are not getting geared up and taking care of basic needs of their own peoples and families.

Show me a people that could take care of themselves when their infrastructure is bombed, houses demolished either because a family member committed a crime or to make way for Jewish settlers, had prime farmland seized and their police force actively decimated through air strikes and helicopter gunships.

Unlike Israel, the Palestinians do not receive $1.5 billion annually of private financial aid from US civilians. They do not receive $1 billion annually in aid from the United States government either.

Total U.S. aid to Israel is approximately one-third of the American foreign-aid budget, even though Israel comprises just .001 percent of the world's population and already has one of the world's higher per capita incomes. Indeed, Israel's GNP is higher than the combined GNP of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza. With a per capita income of about $14,000, Israel ranks as the sixteenth wealthiest country in the world; Israelis enjoy a higher per capita income than oil-rich Saudi Arabia and are only slightly less well-off than most Western European countries.

www.wrmea.com...

Read that quoted paragraph and tell me you agree with continuing financial aid to the Israelis. Then tell me there is a level playing field in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and that the plight of the Palestinian people is of their own making.

Is it the Palestinian's fault that they have had to fight for the territory granted to them by the World via the UN General Assembly vote for 50 years? Is it the Palestinian's fault their opponent received approximately $85 billion dollars in aid and loans from the United States? Do you think Israel would be the 16th richest country in the World if it had to fight a 50 year long conflict without obscene financial support from the United States?

Yep, its all the Palestinians fault

Originally posted by golemina
Why is it they seem to only know how to do three things...

-Stick their hands out and begging...
-Grow enormous families without any way to even begin to take care of them...
- Fabricate endless lies and faux docudramas/scenarios to attempt to hide what they are really doing.

Yeah and im the hate-filled one.

Originally posted by golemina
Making peace is NOT that hard.

Egypt has done it.

Jordon has done it.

Making peace is not easy when you've been shafted by the international community and are denied what is rightfully yours. Israel is like the Great Train Robbery on an international scale. Just look at Jerusalem, that was explicitly denied the Israelis by the UN in the creation of Israel yet they now occupy it.

Egypt and Jordan have not made peace, they have only recognized Israel. Also the Egyptians ended their antipathy to Israel when they gave them back the Sinai pennisular, you see its easy to make peace when a nation isnt occupying your land.

Originally posted by golemina
Why is it the 'Palestinians' are so incapable of getting it done?

Their land is occupied, their infrastructure including their capacity to police their citizens is constantly destroyed by Israel, their funds are cut off when they dont do exactly as Israel wants and they dont enjoy the perpetual victim status that Jews do in the West that the Zionists exploit.

Originally posted by golemina
I've got to give you one thing though. Israel is entirely at fault...

For not truly defending themselves.

What ever.

Originally posted by DeusEx
Israel tried it both ways- fighting the Palestinians didn't work, because the whole world started whining about defending themselves.

Israel stopped fighting the Palestinians? When?

Originally posted by DeusEx
Israel tried giving them autonomy, and the Palestinians managed to screw that up, too. In addition to fighting a low-intensity civil war at the moment, they are also picking fights with the neighbor who graciously decided to let them have a chunk of their country.

Graciously decided to let them have a chunk of their country? What the hell have you been smoking? Israel was given Arab land by a UN general assembly vote. They then provoked a war, won (with the aid of the United States) and then occupied land that was originally given to Palestine. So friggen gracious.

Originally posted by DeusEx
This is what appeasement gets you.

This is what ignorance and the myth of the perpetual victim gets you.

Originally posted by Astronomer70
Now don't get carried away Subz, while I do agree with many of your comments concerning Israel, I see no reason to fan the flames of mayhem & murder by either side.

Neither do I, notice I said that Hamas have no right to target Israeli citizens either? If they want to take on the IDF then more power to them.

[edit on 13/6/06 by subz]

I'm just going tell you straight up like men should talk to each other Subz.

Your whining embarasses me...

The 'Palestinians' whining embarasses me...

Your words attempt to portray the 'plight' of the 'Palestinians' as perpetual victims.

You know an honest observer can buy that for a day, a week, a month, a decade...

But WHAT has it been?

What have the 'PALESTINIANS' done?

Embarass? Yes, I know... Sounds like strong words.

I have seen with my OWN TWO EYES... MEN go into the wilderness and build a CONCRETE PLANT with little more than a few individuals, a few tools and their minds.

They simply had a vision... and they were MEN.

The world has seen the 'Palestinian' vision... And their current situation is ENTIRELY on their own making. They have no one to blame but themselves.

They can NOT EVEN FEED THEMSELVES... Explain that to me.

An honest observer would tell you that the Israelis are far from perfect. But the sad truth is, warts and all, the Israelis only want peace. Egypt understood that. Jordan understood that.

The Israelis are some of the most enterprising peoples that exists on the face of this blue marble. If the 'Palestinians' spent just 1% of the energy on making better lives, better facilities, better nations as shown by those Israelis, the 'Palestinians' and YOU seem to hate so much... Imagine the possibilties!

They are sitting on the hottest tourist attraction in the world for THREE major religions.

With just a little vision... Imagine the possibilties!

'Palestinians' are simply warmongers...

Some might say Subz, that you sound much like them.

And DeuxEx... You are too kind.


[edit on 13-6-2006 by golemina]

Thanks, Golemina. I think you're right- Egypt and Jordan may not be terribly chummy with the Israelis, but then again they're not launching rocket attacks into civillian sectors in an effort to cause casualties, are they?

english.ohmynews.com...

As well, IDF artillery is apparently not responsible. There are some allegations that the Palestinians were tryign to set up an IED using a captured shell, but those seem like a thin allegation to me. Personally, I think the shell was left there after one of Israel's numerous conflicts - maybe the Seven Day's War, maybe froma previous engagement. Some kid trips over it, boom.

Hell, it happens in Normandy from time to time even.

DE

Originally posted by subz

Originally posted by Nygdan
Wow, a whole year and a half. THey must be saints.

Just long enough to get elected too eh?

How about they sign a peace treaty, or actually go to war with their 'occupying enemy'???

Yes a whole year and a half, which is more than can be said for the blood thirsty Zionist leadership of Israel who have murdered scores of men, women and children without pause. I cannot see any reason why Hamas should stick to its ceasefire

How about not wanting to face their own utter destruction??

when Israel continues to terrorise the Palestinian people.

They were firing on positions that were being used to fire upon them.

I dont agree that Hamas should target civilians, but I can empathize with their lashing out.

Its alright to target civilian for murder, because the jews are bastards?

Israel cannot survive a peace treaty with Palestine, and it knows it. A few decades would see Israel become Arabic simply via demographics, much like some other Western nations.

Isreal isn't responding to enemy fire because of a concern for future demographics. The palestinians are actively engaged in a battle with the Isrealis, and the Israelis are responding.

Therefore Israel goads, provokes, murders, extorts, blackmails and terrorizes the Palestinians without relent so that no effective peace deal can be signed.

Unless, of course, the palestinians just went nuts and up and signed one.

Also when the inevitable Palestinian retaliation occurs it can then point to this in the forever obedient Western media as being the reason that Palestinians dont deserve peace.

They don't want peace, so of course they aren't going to get it. The only people that deserve peace are the ones that have been able to beat their enemies so mercilessly that those enemies beg for it. Otherwise, bitter enemies allways plot against one another.

Which is then lapped up by the hordes of the uninformed that bleat on about how Israel can do no wrong and is the perpetual bloody victim!

Since the palestinains are targetting Israeli civilians, that would tend to make the israelis the victims here, yes.

Israel is a disgrace, a disgrace that literally gets away with murder because every single UN resolution critical of it gets veto'd by the United States.

Well, jolly well good for the team then. To the victor goes the spoils, as they say.

Who cares about the UN? If the arabs don't want the yehudis occupying palestine, then raise an army, march over there, and start a war. IF they want palestine, they'll have to fight for it.

It is the sole cause of the Arab World's problem with the "West"

Bollocks. There are multiple disputes between the West and the arab world, the israeli-palestinian conflict can hardly be legitimately said to be an honest conccern for jihadis central asia or indonesia. If there were no israel, then right now we'd be debating ocer whether Bush is manufacturing a war with Palestine.

and I for one am tired of people defending the indefencible.

Teh only indefensible position here is the one that supports the specific targeting of civilians and the inane demand for land without being willing ot pay for it in the standard currency, blood.

The Palestinians need to unilaterally declare statehood and claim the UN approved Palestine border as their own. They should then wage an all out offensive against Israel

Then we are in complete agreement on the fundamentals. If the Palestinians want that stretch of desert, then they should stand up and take it.

But notice, they don't. Arafat didn't. Hamas didn't. Abbas isn't. Indeed, when granted the slight degree of self rule that they now have, what have they done? Engaged in terrorism against themselves. THis is because the peopel that have come ot power in palestine are not leaders, are not patriots, and infact are nothing but scumbag terrorists who brainwash other people into blowing themselves up in order to kill civilians. So when faced with a political dilema, whether its sovreignty from israel or whether or not to have a referendum internally, the two camps use the only 'method' they have ever used, terrorism, violence, and murder. If israel was insane enough to actually give these lunatics a state, it'd simply be used to launch further and better armed attacks against Israel, until the isreali government surrended and disolved itself.

Why would Israel want to negotiate when they have more land than originally approved by the UN?

Indeed, why should Israel give up what its had to pay for in its own blood? The world didn't do anything to stop the Arabs from engaging in an "illegal" war agains them, so why should the world's opinion be relevant now? The UN doesn't dictate what nations have what borders, war does.

If the Israelis were genuine in wanting to negotiate a peace deal they would not break international law by assassinating Palestinians

It is not against any international law to kill people engaged in warfare against you.

They would not send tanks into refugee camps

How else are they supposed to safely enter the camps?

They would not order artillery to be fired into residential areas.

When there are people shooting and firing upon them from those areas? They'd be fools not to respond to attacks.

They would not shoot CHILDREN for throwing stones at armoured vehicles.

Children in palestine are strapped with bombs and sent off to blow themselves up. Who's really interested in peace here? The people responding to attacks, or the monsters buttoning bomb-vests onto children???

If they truly wanted peace they should fully return to the UN authourised borders

Why? They were behind those borders once, and a pan-arab leage waged war against them. THis has nothing to do with the borders, its about the existence of Israel.

and then let the rest of the World keep the borders respected.

I'm certainly not interetsed in having US Troops patrol that border, and no one else is either.

Do you not think that if Israel returned to their UN authourised borders and ceased killing Palestinians, but still were attacked by the Palestinians that the rest of the World would not be on Israel's side?

??

Are you kidding?

Originally posted by Nygdan
Teh only indefensible position here is the one that supports the specific targeting of civilians and the inane demand for land without being willing ot pay for it in the standard currency, blood.

Cherry picked this line to clearly illustrate why your whole post is not worth responding to.

1) How much clearer do I have to be with regards to targetting civilians:

Originally posted by subz
I dont agree that Hamas should target civilians

Originally posted by subz
I agree with you, negotiations should always be the prefered solution to any conflict.

Originally posted by subz
Before you bring up the attacks on Israeli civilians, let me make myself clear. This too is unacceptable. There is no justification for murdering civilians, period.

2) Are you even aware of how Israel was created? Since when was Israel the product of war? They were granted that land by a UN General Assembly vote. Whats this paying for it "in the standard currency, blood" hooey? The Zionists didnt pay that price so why should the Palestinians?

Look, if you're not going to show me the courtesy of actually reading what I write then dont be angry if I simply ignore your replies. That goes to the other people in this thread who have a panchant for blatantly ignoring what I write.

Originally posted by subz
[2) Are you even aware of how Israel was created? Since when was Israel the product of war? They were granted that land by a UN General Assembly vote. Whats this paying for it "in the standard currency, blood" hooey? The Zionists didnt pay that price so why should the Palestinians?

I think he was refering to this: 1948 War

The nation of Israel still exists inspite of the 1948, 1967 and 1973 wars.