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Russia Selling Weapons to Venezuela. But is This Sale More than Just for Profit?

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posted on Jun, 10 2006 @ 04:58 PM
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One of the first shipments of AK103 Kalashnikov from Russia, 30,000 to be more exact, has arrived in Venezuela. This shipment is part of a 100,000 weapons and 25 million rounds to modernize the Venezuelan army. Russia is also about to sell 30 Sukhoi 30 jets. Venezuelan pilots have already been training in Russia to learn how to pilot the Sukhoi jets.
 



www.mosnews.com
Washington last month banned U.S. arms sales to Chavez’s government because of jitters about his ties with Havana and Tehran and what it called his inaction against Marxist FARC guerrillas in neighboring Colombia. He rejects those charges.

Defense Minister Adm. Orlando Maniglia said earlier that the rifles, part of a multimillion-dollar arms deal, would replace aging FAL weapons. He said all 100,000 rifles would be in Venezuela before the end of the year and Russia would help Venezuela build plants to make its own Kalashnikov rifles and ammunition.



Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


Some people will say that this is just a regular deal in which Russia is just trying to make money, but if that is true then why is Russia going to help Venezuela to build plants so that the socialist revolutionary regime can make their own Kalashnikov and ammunition?

If Russia was in it for the money wouldn't they just keep selling Venezuela more weapons instead of teaching them and helping them to make their own?

Yes, it is true that by helping them make these plants the Russians will also get money, but wouldn't the Russian make a lot more money just if they keep selling the weapons and ammunitions?

This is after the Russian defense minister went to Cuba to talk to the Cuban defense minister to tell him that Russia will be willing to sell to Cuba more than just the regular armaments they have been selling to the Communist regime for years, only if Cuba is willing to spend more money.

It appears as if the Russians are trying their hardest to make another cold war and help every country which calls itself "enemy of the United States".

Related News Links:
en.rian.ru

www.rferl.org..." target="_blank" class="postlink">www.rferl.org


[edit on 10-6-2006 by Muaddib]




posted on Jun, 10 2006 @ 06:05 PM
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It appears as if the Russians are trying their hardest to make another cold war and help every country which calls itself "enemy of the United States".

So what, is the US the only country allowed to arm other countries? If the US isn't going to step in there, you can sure bet that another country will. If it wasn't Russia, it would probably be China.



posted on Jun, 10 2006 @ 06:08 PM
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Yes, it is true that by helping them make these plants the Russians will also get money, but wouldn't the Russian make a lot more money just if they keep selling the weapons and ammunitions?


Simple. They pay them to build it and pay them a set price for each weapon that they build. The people who own the rights [Government], no longer have to use their own resources, man power, time, etc, instead they get money for nothing.



posted on Jun, 10 2006 @ 06:15 PM
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Looks like Socialists are still desperately trying to take control over Central and South America as they have been working at for decades. Nothing new here just different names and players that I can see. Russia and China can be very aggressive there selves when they want to be it appears.

Luckily for Venezuela they have oil and oil is worth a lot of meny these days else that place would collapse into rot in a reasonable amount of time.. well it may happen anyways based upon the management skills of socialists from what I have seen.



posted on Jun, 10 2006 @ 11:04 PM
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Yea oh well. Russia will continue to sell to Venezuela, regardless of what the US cares. America won't do a darned thing. Russia will also sell to Cuba liek the article states if they want to, and our government will not do a darn thing about it. Vent your anger as much as you wish, we will not have a war, cold or hot. # sell stuff to Mexico for all I give a damn. I am not looking for any reasons to create conflicts with anyone, and I do not see business deals like these as any reasons to justify conflicts.

I wonder how many jobs these weapons productions factories would bring to Venezuela's defense industry?



posted on Jun, 10 2006 @ 11:38 PM
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well i think enough to be repected power in the world or so i think. the russian just dont have that type like they use to so make them more powerful would be a benifit. It will be like the uk and usa or something like that



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 02:27 PM
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Originally posted by Odium
Simple. They pay them to build it and pay them a set price for each weapon that they build. The people who own the rights [Government], no longer have to use their own resources, man power, time, etc, instead they get money for nothing.


If you can find a link where this is said please post it, otherwise you are stating only an opinion.

Anyways, once the Venezuelan government builds those plants, the Russians won't be able to track all the weapons and ammunition made in Venezuela, which would make it a bad business decision on the part of the Russians.



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 02:29 PM
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---edited for double post---

[edit on 11-6-2006 by Muaddib]



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 02:29 PM
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Originally posted by DYepes
Yea oh well. Russia will continue to sell to Venezuela, regardless of what the US cares. America won't do a darned thing. Russia will also sell to Cuba liek the article states if they want to, and our government will not do a darn thing about it. Vent your anger as much as you wish, we will not have a war, cold or hot. # sell stuff to Mexico for all I give a damn. I am not looking for any reasons to create conflicts with anyone, and I do not see business deals like these as any reasons to justify conflicts.

I wonder how many jobs these weapons productions factories would bring to Venezuela's defense industry?



First of all, where in the world did I say this is grounds for a war?...

You got it backwards, it is Russia who seems to want to go back to the cold war, whether you give a damn or you don't....

[edit on 11-6-2006 by Muaddib]



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 04:39 PM
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They do not want to go back to the cold war. They only want to sell weapons. Anyone who decides to take measures against that is the one wishing to start a cold war. I never stated you said this was grounds for any type of war, and did not mean for my statements to appear as so, although I suppose it can be construed as being implied in my statements. Simple fact is, if noone responds to this, there is no cold war, only a business transaction.

[edit on 6/11/2006 by DYepes]

[edit on 6/11/2006 by DYepes]



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 04:55 PM
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Well for the last few years Russia, China and Venezuela has been engaged in all kinds of deals, from oil to arms and who knows even nuclear plants in the future.

US has lost contact with many of the South American countries also that has opened a door to European countries to make business with many of these South American nations specially the ones that produce oil.

For a while US has been warned about the implications of these actions but the US has been to busy fighting it’s war on terror in the middle east to even take in consideration that the terror maybe brewing just south of the border.

Also is not only Russia, China, Iran the countries involve in the deals with Venezuela trying to improve their military forces and modernized it.

Spain is also involve in a 2.7 billion dollar worth of weapons from Helicopters, boats and transport for plains.

US has refuse to sell spare parts for Venezuela US jets after the 1982 contract sales of F-16, since May of this year Russia has been steadily sending cargo ships with Russian made Kalashnikov assault rifles.

US has attempt to stop these deals but with not success.

Now Venezuela is looking into getting Russian Sukhoi Su-30 and Su-35 fighter jets to replace the F-16s also they want to get 15 Russian helicopters for $200 million just for starters.

The true is that Venezuela as a nation has the right to keep their military in top shape for the defense of their nation.

Specially when US will not help Venezuela in case of a foreign invasion.

What else can the oil producing country can do? Well they are taking matters into their hands.

Regardless of the feelings about Venezuela and what the US may say about all these I believe that so far they are acting in their best interest.

The only thing is that it seems Chavez has plenty of billions to burn on the defense of his country but what has he done for the people so far.

www.cnn.com...



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 08:16 PM
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What is the similarities between all those countries? China is still, despite some people trying to deny it, a Communist nation. Russia is more and more turning back to the old ways, and as they have said already they will back every Islamic nation against the U.S. or any other western nation. As some of you already know by now, I never believed Russia "stooped being Communist", they just set in motion one part of the plan they have had for decades. Spain is now controlled by socialists, Venezuela is socialist, but Chavez has said he is following castro's footsteps, which means he is a Communist too.

A long time ago one of the most famous defectors from Russia wrote about a plan that would be put in effect in the future, it appears as if that plan is still in the works and pretty much everything this man, and others like himself have said, has come true.

The first time these things were said by this man was back in 1984, but he asserts that this plan had been in the workds since 1958.

Let's read the most pertinent parts of what this man said, and see if they are true these days.


Golitsyn maintains that the goals of the master plan were to provide a more profound political stabilization of individual communist regimes by developing wider mass support, the rectification of economic weakness of the bloc by increased international trade and the acquisition of credits and high technology from the West, the creation of a substructure for an eventual world federation of communist states, political isolation of the US from its allies, developing influence among socialists in Western Europe and Japan, the dissolution of NATO, and an alignment between the Soviet Union and a neutral, preferably socialist, Western Europe; concerted action with nationalist leaders in the Third World to eliminate Western influence as a preliminary to absorbing them in a communist federation, shifting the balance of power in favor of the Communist world, and the ideological disarmament of the West to create favorable conditions for convergence of East and West on communist terms.

Golitsyn predicts that the Soviet regime will be stabilized by the creation of spurious, controlled opposition movements and the use of those movements to neutralize genuine internal and external opposition, and that it will encourage communist parties to establish united fronts with socialist parties throughout the world thus increasing Soviet influence in parliaments and trade unions.4

Some of the techniques, according to Golitsyn, will be dissension within the bloc, unity of action behind disunity of words, a show of weakness before meeting with Western leaders or before major initiatives or negotiations, and the heavy use of disinformation.5 This disinformation will emanate from official Communist sources, unofficial Communist sources, and "secret" communist sources, much of it retrospective. It is to be delivered through Western newspapermen, scholars, officials, and the Soviet intelligentsia.

The final phase of the master plan, according to Golitsyn, is a disinformation and deception campaign of such magnitude that it would be "beyond the imagination of Marx, or the practical reach of Lenin, and unthinkable to Stalin. Among such previously unthinkable stratagems are the introduction of false liberalization in Eastern Europe and, probably, the Soviet Union, and the exhibition of spurious independence on the part of the regimes in Romania, Czechoslovakia, and Poland."

Golitsyn predicted the "breakup" of the communist bloc in Eastern Europe as a technique to be used by the Soviet government to entice Europe to move more towards socialism and to align itself eventually with the USSR against the United States. The Third World would then join communist Russia and socialist Western Europe against the US and its allies. Then there would be a joint drive by the Soviet bloc and a socialist Europe to push the US out of Europe and into nuclear disarmament. A powerful world federation of communist states would emerge and the US would be induced to "converge" on communist terms.


Such a plan would not only exceed the imagination of Marx, or the practical reach of Lenin, and be unthinkable to Stalin, but also defies credulity altogether. Still, despite its incredulity, it must be admitted that at least a year before Gorbachev came to power Golitsyn predicted in writing the breakup of the communist bloc and dissension within the Soviet Union. Since apparent change has come to Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union at a pace unimaginable only a few years ago -- unimaginable except, we must add, to Anatoliy Golitsyn -- perhaps it is worth the attempt to test the Golitsyn hypothesis in the light of what is currently happening in Europe and the USSR.

www.umd.umich.edu...

Pretty much everything this man said has come to pass, or hasn't it?

Some might say it is coincidence, but it is too coincidental that it is happening step by step as the highest ranking Russian military defector, Anatoliy Golitsyn, explained over 2 decades ago, along with other Russian military defectors who decided to get away from Russia and to tell their story and this plan, before it is too late.


[edit on 11-6-2006 by Muaddib]



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 09:09 PM
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You know what, if the capitalist nature of unimpeded uncontrolled and sometimes unjustified growth, complete uncontrolled saturation of resources, and freedom to breed immorality are somehow removed from the world, I would not be the least bit sad at all. I definetly will not bow down to self appointed leaders with unlimited term limit though. If this master plans comes here Maudibb, I guess it will be a matter of which side will ywe choose? If many of these events have come to pass already, than more than half of the world is opposed to our global influence and will soon attempt to take it head on. Do you believe we can take half the Earth? Or shall we just go out with a bang and scorch the Earth with nukes?

No seriously I just want to know what action you believe should be taken to stop this from happenig? I will admit I am quite ignorant on this subject, so I would like you to enlighten me some. I would fight to preserve our freedom because after its over at least we can change some of the bad parts of the old system. Starting with how this arms deal is a step in this plan, how should we respond?



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 10:22 PM
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Originally posted by DYepes
You know what, if the capitalist nature of unimpeded uncontrolled and sometimes unjustified growth, complete uncontrolled saturation of resources, and freedom to breed immorality are somehow removed from the world, I would not be the least bit sad at all.


Although there are and have been people who take advantage of the Capitalist system, it has been the Capitalist system which has made certain that anyone, no matter from what family they come from can become anything they want. It is also because of Capitalism that we have advanced so much in so many fields.

Capitalism does not "breed immorality" nor does it "destroys resources." You can find the same "destruction of resources" in socialist countries, and it is a lot worse in Communist countries. Venezuela is "supposed" to be a socialist country, yet since Chavez has been in office they have lowered the standards for protection of the environement. How do I know? Because I work for a company which provides services to oil industries to countries such as Venezuela.

I have only been working for a year for this company, but I have come to know people who worked, and work in many different countries and we have talked about such measures.

Socialism/Communism, does not guarantee "a safe environment". Yet, people like Chavez claim it does. I have given a speech by Chavez about this same very issue a while ago. I will see if I can dig it out.

As for your "first question" as to what does this arms deal between Venezuela and Russia have to do with this plan, the anwser is very easy and plain to see.

Chavez has been calling for the destruction of Capitalism, and U.S. Imperialism, which is part of this plan. Something which socialist revolutionaries (Communists for those who don't know this yet) have been calling for since the inception of Communism.

Let me give you some excerpts as to Chavez speeches which corroborate what i am saying.


Chávez said that US-Venezuelan political relations are unhealthy because of "permanent aggression from there". He criticised US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who recently asserted that Chávez was "a negative force in the region". He said those relations will stay unhealthy as long as the US continues its policies of aggression. "The most negative force in the world today is the government of the United States", he said.


www.dsp.org.au...

In that speech he doesn't even mention U.S. Capitalism...he just claims the U.S. as a whole is the most negative force in the world", which is a lie, but it is part of this plan.

Let me also show you what else has he said, from that same link i gave.


`The FTAA is death'
During the closing speech at Gigantinho Stadium, the president added that 2005 arrived and the Free Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA) was not implemented. "The FTAA is death. What they got was mini-FTAAs because US imperialism did not have the strength to impose the neocolonial model of the FTAA."

The president highlighted the Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas (ALBA), a proposal made by Venezuela in opposition to the FTAA and which emphasises social and cultural exchanges above profitbased economic deals. "We can't wait for ten years of sustained economic growth in order to start reducing poverty through the trickle-down effect, as the neo-liberal economic theories propose."

excerpted from above link.

And let's see some of the other tactics Chavez uses trying to convince people to his side.


Christ "revolutionary"

Chavez thanked Spanish intellectual and director of Le Monde Diplomatique Ignacio Ramonet for saying that Chavez was a new type of leader. He said he is inspired by old types of leaders such as Christ, whom he described as "one of the greatest anti-imperialist fighters, the redeemers of the poor, and one of the greatest revolutionaries of the history of the world."

www.dsp.org.au...

And what is the plan that people such as Chavez have?


“Capitalism must be transcended”

"Everyday I become more convinced, there is no doubt in my mind, and as many intellectuals have said, that it is necessary to transcend capitalism. But capitalism can’t be transcended from with capitalism itself, but through socialism, true socialism, with equality and justice. But I’m also convinced that it is possible to do it under democracy, but not in the type of democracy being imposed from Washington," he said.

www.dsp.org.au...




Originally posted by DYepes
I definetly will not bow down to self appointed leaders with unlimited term limit though.


Well, as we have seen from another article, which was never presented in this forum but can be found in another forum in this site, Chavez has already said that he will "ask" to be president until 2031....

Here is the ATS link.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Here is an excerpt and link to what he has called for. The link which DigitalGrl gave in her thread cannot be found anymore.


Chavez Proposes Referendum
to Stay President Until 2031
FoxNews.com
President Hugo Chavez said that if opposition parties boycott December's presidential election he would call a referendum asking voters to decide whether he should govern Venezuela for the next 25 years.

Speaking Saturday at a stadium packed with supporters in central Lara state,

Chavez rejected allegations he was a power-hungry tyrant but said he might seek to extend his rule beyond current term limits if the opposition pulls out of the presidential vote, as it did last year's congressional election.

"I am going to call a referendum," Chavez said. "I am going to ask you, all the people, if you agree with Chavez being president until 2031."


www.hacer.org...



Originally posted by DYepes
If this master plans comes here Maudibb, I guess it will be a matter of which side will ywe choose? If many of these events have come to pass already, than more than half of the world is opposed to our global influence and will soon attempt to take it head on. Do you believe we can take half the Earth? Or shall we just go out with a bang and scorch the Earth with nukes?


I prefer if no nukes are used at all, but i do see a conflict over this in the not so distant future. In fact this conflict is being fought as we speak, but such Communist forces have been using countries such as Iraq, and Iran to fight this conflict at first for them. Russia has been using the wat in Iraq as a means to taint the image of the United States calling the war as "unnecessary" and a "crime against humanity", yet it was the Russian government itself who for years provided evidence to what they themselves helped create in Iraq. Now they are doing the same with Iran, and they are arming other countries such as Venezuela and Cuba.


Originally posted by DYepes
No seriously I just want to know what action you believe should be taken to stop this from happenig? I will admit I am quite ignorant on this subject, so I would like you to enlighten me some. I would fight to preserve our freedom because after its over at least we can change some of the bad parts of the old system. Starting with how this arms deal is a step in this plan, how should we respond?


The first thing is knowledge. People should know about this and then realize that this plan, just as Communism, is not dead, and people are being used to spread the goals of this plan. Socialist groups, many if not most who are parent organizations of Communists have been spreading the propaganda which is making this plan possible, and they have been disguising it in western countries as "liberalism", yet note that even Chavez is against "neo-liberalism" and he is in favour of "true socialism", which is only an economic step before Communism is implemented as explained by Marx.

Some people will say "but there are differences between Communism and liberalism", well, you don't expect everyone to accept Communism just like it was accepted in the past by "the working people" including entire nations.

A lot of people are more educated these days and will immediately see that they are falling for another Communist goal. Instead it is being disguised so that more people accept this goal.

[edit on 11-6-2006 by Muaddib]



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 11:28 PM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
Some people will say "but there are differences between Communism and liberalism", well, you don't expect everyone to accept Communism just like it was accepted in the past by "the working people" including entire nations.


Exactly what do you think liberalism is? What do you think is the only way to live properly in this world? Do you think we all have to be republicans to live a good life?

[edit on 11-6-2006 by Jamuhn]



posted on Jun, 13 2006 @ 07:28 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
Exactly what do you think liberalism is? What do you think is the only way to live properly in this world? Do you think we all have to be republicans to live a good life?

[edit on 11-6-2006 by Jamuhn]


Liberalism is almost the same that Communism was supposed to give to the people. Equality and the same freedom for all, all poor people will be taken care of, etc, etc. I see liberalism just more of the same old lies that "the world can be cured of everything if U.S. imperialism and U.S. capitalism doesn't exist, etc, etc, etc."

You might want to try to dismiss this by posting several meanings from encyclopedias from the internet, but I can show you that Communism was pretty much claiming the same thing. Yes, there are some differences, but if you look at the agenda that both have, they are too damn similar to be coincidence.

I don't think we all have to be Republicans, but i also don't think that a "new revolution of the workers" is necessary either, and as I have explained before, when you ask someone "how they think we should be living properly in the world", you are asking for people to tell you about their own Utopias, what they think is the "ideal society", and ideal societies are just wishes, they can never come true because we all are different, and we all have a different view on what an Utopian society should be.

Anyways, to get back on topic here is another link about the arm deals between Venezuela and Russia.


Russia plans to expand presence on Venezuelan arms market

MOSCOW, June 13 (RIA Novosti) - Russia is planning to increase sales of military hardware in Venezuela by offering the Latin American country a wide variety of advanced weaponry, the state-controlled arms exporter said Tuesday.

Rosoboronexport said it would focus on modern aircraft, including Su-27SK Flanker and Su-30MK fighters and the Mi-28N Night Hunter attack helicopter, as well as small arms, at the Expo Ejercito 2006 arms show on June 13-18 in the Venezuelan capital, Caracas.

en.rian.ru...



posted on Jun, 13 2006 @ 07:38 PM
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Russia is not "turning to the old ways". This is simply not true. It's not socialist, it's a cut throat capitalist nation. It also does not want to engage the US in a cold war or any kind of war.

This topic has really become top-heavy - i.e. the question was simple and it does not deserve (IMHO) the philosophical treatises. Did they do it for profit? Yes. Would they do something to vex the US at the same time if situation allows? Yes. Not more, not less.



posted on Jun, 13 2006 @ 07:41 PM
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Muaddib, which part of it do you not understand? I really thought it was fairly common sense what I posted. It is in fact, what a lot of big business does and it is why they open up companies and factories in other Nations.



posted on Jun, 13 2006 @ 08:01 PM
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It is absolutely fascinating that NOT ONE poster thus far has tried to see things from the Venezuelan point of view. All the posts are about "what's Russia's intent in this?" Well you might like to consider that Venezuela might have a view about what they're doing. I know most of the Americans on this board are used to their southern neigbours being quiet because they live under US-backed death squad "democracies", but there has been an upsurge in genuine democracy throughout the region and guess what? The locals don't want the multinationals ripping them off for their resources anymore, and they now, some of them, have governments who are an expression of this democratic urge.

Firstly, Venezuela are arming themselves because in 2002 the US tried (and failed) to overthrow Chavez and impose a puppet regime, and they want to arm themselves against foreign (US) aggression. No-one has mentioned this. The US has been conducting military exercises in the Caribbean which are clearly intended to intimidate Chavez. He has responded by making arms deals.

Secondly, the Venezuelan government, a while ago, wanted to buy arms from Spain. The US managed to nix this deal but this has driven Venezuela into negotiations with the Russians, who are not as easily intimidated.

Thirdly, it's in Venezuela's interest to want to produce these things independently. They can then sell them locally to other governments who want to stand up to the US. Why is it impossible for people to get their heads round the idea that maybe Venezuela negotiated this deal for themselves because they thought it was good for themselves and for the region?

The assumptions are breathtaking: US=good, Russia=communist=evil, Venezuela='ours' Chavez=communist=evil.

The US media has clearly succeeded in demonising Chavez, who doesn't deserve this.



posted on Jun, 14 2006 @ 12:56 AM
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---edited---

[edit on 14-6-2006 by Muaddib]



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