72 Virgins or 72 Raisins???

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posted on Jun, 10 2006 @ 04:48 PM
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Its seems some scholars now think the fate of Martyrs as told in the Koran is not 72 virgins but rather 72 white grapes or white raisins thanks to a mistranslation from Aramaic.




Christoph Luxenberg's book, Die Syro-Aramaische Lesart des Koran, available only in German, came out just over a year ago, but has already had an enthusiastic reception, particularly among those scholars with a knowledge of several Semitic languages at Princeton, Yale, Berlin, Potsdam, Erlangen, Aix-en-Provence, and the Oriental Institute in Beirut.

Luxenberg tries to show that many obscurities of the Koran disappear if we read certain words as being Syriac and not Arabic. We cannot go into the technical details of his methodology but it allows Luxenberg, to the probable horror of all Muslim males dreaming of sexual bliss in the Muslim hereafter, to conjure away the wide-eyed houris promised to the faithful in suras XLIV.54; LII.20, LV.72, and LVI.22. Luxenberg 's new analysis, leaning on the Hymns of Ephrem the Syrian, yields "white raisins" of "crystal clarity" rather than doe-eyed, and ever willing virgins - the houris. Luxenberg claims that the context makes it clear that it is food and drink that is being offerred, and not unsullied maidens or houris.




Man if that turns out to be true thats one heck of a ironic bummer waiting for some "Martyrs". I know there are likely many mistranslations in the Bible as well as the Koran but I havent been able to find a English copy of Christoph Luxenberg's book yet to look more into his case for this particular mistranslation.


www.guardian.co.uk...

syrcom.cua.edu...




posted on Jun, 10 2006 @ 06:21 PM
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I heard this theory before lol. 72 raisins instead of virgins
.



posted on Jun, 10 2006 @ 06:27 PM
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If I had blown myself up and got to the other side and they offerred me raisins instead of virgins, There would be hell to pay. They would be calling heavens version of 911 because i'd be plucking angel feathers and kicking Cherubs like footballs. I'd be seriusly hard to get along with!

I could have gotten that on a flight to Toledo!




posted on Jun, 10 2006 @ 08:45 PM
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I read this too.

Irshad Manji(some have heard of her and don't like her) wrote a book called 'The Trouble with Islam', in which she states this as well.

It certainly would give a new twist on how the 'Koran' s interpreted.

For what its worth I enjoyed the book and her refreshing view of Islam.



posted on Jun, 10 2006 @ 10:27 PM
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I've heard this as well, something about "white globes of infinite clarity" I think - in other words, white grapes.

It is, after all, paradise. Lush, with low-hanging fruit and bountiful delights and so on...



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 07:48 AM
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for the record....the Quran mentions NO such thing. It is from hadith.

As a general rule of thumb, if you read something like this (ie, stupid)....it comes from the hadith.

God did not say anything about 72 virgins. Or raisins for that matter :-)



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 09:24 PM
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I think that the main thesis of this guy's work is a lot more startling than the subsitution of divine virgins for grapes. That the quaran and associated texts are better understood as being written in Syriac than Arabic.


syrcom.cua.edu...

Luxenberg summarizes the cultural and linguistic importance of written Syriac for the Arabs and for the Qur’ān. At the time of Muhammad, Arabic was not a written language. Syro-Aramaic or Syriac was the language of written communication in the Near East from the second to the seventh centuries A.D. [...]Part of Luxenberg’s study shows that Syriac influence on those who created written Arabic was transmitted through a Christian medium, the influence of which was fundamental.



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 09:34 PM
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Nice find shadow!

I really hope this turns out to be correct and gets a lot of publicity because I think you're going to have a hard time finding suicide bombers by promising them a box of these when they die:

www.sun-maid.com...

"And if you die as a martyr you will recieve 72 dkklfjgoei in the afterlife"

"What was that? What do I get?"

"72 rchems"

"Did you just say you want me to blow myself and a schoolbus up for 72 raisins? Yeah, I think I'm going to move to India and do tech support, see ya."

"But they're very good raisins...hello...72 rais...do they have a mathcing 401k at that tech support place, hey wait up."

Spiderj



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 09:45 PM
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how is the translation for virgins so close to the translations for raisins? And if they are so close, what does this say about virgins?



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 09:49 PM
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If the word for raisin/grape is so similar to virgin, you have to wonder if this was done intentionally. Paradise, one way or another. Personally though, I would have to agree with what was said before. I'm not driving the car with the bomb in it on the promise of grapes. I think I'd just take the money offered for the kill and use a rocket launcher instead, then go buy me some grapes. Perhaps a few virgins to feed them to. Win-win.



posted on Jun, 12 2006 @ 06:27 AM
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Nygdan.....that was interesting. I have heard before claims that words used in the Quran have Syrian/Aramaic/Hebrew.....(i'm not too knowledgable in languages)....usages. Something i think i should look into.

For other people posting on here....please, please, please, please....remember....do not use this as a tool in the "lets make fun of Islam" game.
By all means, use it as a tool in the newly devised "lets make fun of hadith" game

I repeat, this is NOT mentioned in the Quran (Koran)....it is only mentioned in the same set of texts that tell you that wearing pants that hang below your ankles will lead you straight to hell and that the devil laughs when you yawn.



posted on Jun, 12 2006 @ 06:57 AM
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WARNING, FRUEDIAN POST FOLLOWS:

Wow, this is a great quote from the Guardian link originally posted in this thread:

Possibly this is reason for the treatment of women in the Muslim world....

"Each time we sleep with a houri we find her virgin. Besides, the penis of the Elected never softens. The erection is eternal; the sensation that you feel each time you make love is utterly delicious and out of this world and were you to experience it in this world you would faint. Each chosen one [ie Muslim] will marry seventy [sic] houris, besides the women he married on earth, and all will have appetising vaginas."

No wonder horny young muslim men are so willing to die a martyr
However, the linky says these promises are to all muslims who die (odd it does not state explicitly muslim men)....martyr or not....

"Two points need to be noted. First, there is no mention anywhere in the Koran of the actual number of virgins available in paradise, and second, the dark-eyed damsels are available for all Muslims, not just martyrs."

RAISINS??? OMG, that's a little iota of data surely not brodacast on Al'Jazeera!!!



posted on Jun, 12 2006 @ 12:14 PM
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Originally posted by geek101
By all means, use it as a tool in the newly devised "lets make fun of hadith" game


Is there anything close to a equivalent in Christianity of the Hadith? Are we talking about something like the Book of Enoch for Christians, or is it more of a New Testament for the Quran.

Forgive my ignorance on this subject.. I just want to get a better understanding of how important some Muslims consider the text of the Hadith.



posted on Jun, 12 2006 @ 12:56 PM
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Originally posted by ShadowXIXIs there anything close to a equivalent in Christianity of the Hadith? Are we talking about something like the Book of Enoch for Christians, or is it more of a New Testament for the Quran.

Forgive my ignorance on this subject.. I just want to get a better understanding of how important some Muslims consider the text of the Hadith.


Hadith are sayings (so called anyway) of Muhammad, collected mainly by Persians (surprisingly enough, they were not important enough for Arabs to collect), and put into many, many volumes.

i dont think there is anything quite the same in Christianity. Most muslims unfortunately take the hadith collections as being equal to the Quran. They claim that it is the second source, but its not. Very often, it is the first source, and when it contradicts the Quran, most muslims sadly take the hadith instead.

There are huge inconsistencies in the hadith collections, many contradictions and many, many seemingly illogical, stupid things. They also insult Muhammad by attributing pettiness, violence, intolerance as well as the "marriage to a 6 year old" thing.

There are a growing number of muslims who are reverting back to using the Quran alone.



posted on Jun, 12 2006 @ 01:07 PM
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I read somewhere
that the guy doing the translation worked on this section at a desert diner during breakfast.

This particular passage became obfuscated right after he ordered his bowl of virgin bran.



posted on Jun, 12 2006 @ 03:13 PM
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Originally posted by ShadowXIX
Is there anything close to a equivalent in Christianity of the Hadith?


The commentaries of the early Church Fathers would be the closest thing to it I suspect. The hadith are sort of like the talmud, they're not the core of scripture, but they are comments collected by sages and interpretations from holy men, so they are still sort of 'divine'. For a similar analogy, the Sufi, fro example, are probably analagous to the Kabbalah in judaism.

The sermons that jerry fallwell and the like give on TV are similar to the hadiths, in so far as their relation to the religion, extra-scriptural sources of commentary and interpretation.



geek101
There are huge inconsistencies in the hadith collections, many contradictions and many, many seemingly illogical, stupid things

Right, its a holy text. Got it.



posted on Jun, 12 2006 @ 03:52 PM
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...except its not. Holy, to me, means something given or sent by God. The hadith were most certainly not.



posted on Jun, 12 2006 @ 08:09 PM
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If this is true, I can see it now...

Zarqui sitting in hades, looking all bummed out wearing a t-shirt saying "I was martyred, and all I got was this t-shirt and a stinking bowl of grapes"...





posted on Jun, 12 2006 @ 08:18 PM
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Originally posted by Jedi_Master


If this is true, I can see it now...

Zarqui sitting in hades, looking all bummed out wearing a t-shirt saying "I was martyred, and all I got was this t-shirt and a stinking bowl of grapes"...






He might have a secret rasin fetish, it's all the rage now! It rather turns me on as well



posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 09:43 AM
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Originally posted by ShadowXIX
Is there anything close to a equivalent in Christianity of the Hadith? Are we talking about something like the Book of Enoch for Christians, or is it more of a New Testament for the Quran.

No, Hadiths are definitley not considered a New Testament type text. The Qu'ran and the Hadiths go hand in hand with each other and are considered by the majority of Sunni Muslims to be canonical. As I have stated elsewhere, the Qu'ran comes first in matters of authority, and where the Qu'ran does not specify certain commands or doesn't explain in detail what a Believer must do, then the Hadiths take over in Authority. An example of this is in Salat (prayer), the Qu'ran tells us to pray to God but not how to pray or how many repetitions of prayer per day and so on. The answers to this come in the Hadith or Sunnah (The Prophet's example). Many other things lay in the Hadiths like Islamic end-times prophecy and anecdotes of wisdom and so forth. Sadly, some Muslims follow only those Hadith which they wish to follow, which unsuprisingly accounts for the many different sects in Islam.



Forgive my ignorance on this subject.. I just want to get a better understanding of how important some Muslims consider the text of the Hadith.

I am nowhere near an expert on the subject of Hadiths, some Islamic scholars devote their entire lives to study of them and some to Qu'ranic exegesis. But, as I understand there are different classifications of Hadiths, from which there are thousands, that assign qualities to each of them. Sahih(Authentic), Sunan(Good? or Suspcious?) and another which I can't remember the name but it's considered a weak class. Even as such, scholars routinely scrutinize and authenticate Hadith, which are narrated by chains of other people. If even one narrator in a chain is considered an unreliable source then their quality is diminished.

From what I understand, Hadiths were compiled by early scholars like Imam Hanafi and Imam Shafi'. Which in turn were compiled by the Sahabah(R.A) or companions of Prophet Muhammad (Saw). The Sahabah were largely illiterate and took to memorizing the sayings of the Prophet (saw) as was customary back then with Arabs who would memorize entire poems.

A couple good sites on Hadith here and here. As with all things textual, you have to not only look at its literal meaning but also the wisdom in the words. Hope that helps.

geek101 - "lets make fun of hadith".
If thats what you wish then go ahead. Just know that there some Muslims out there that still follow the Qu'ran and Hadiths.





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