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What is the Human Suffering/Pleasure Ratio?

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posted on Jun, 9 2006 @ 11:34 PM
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What percent is attributable to God and what percent is attributable to Satan?

Since I became an adult my suffering has been so immense that I only attribute it to Satan. I could be wrong. As so, it could be because of my "God-given weakness" in "God-given Spirituality, Physicality, and/or Mentality."

Which precise moves can I do to rectify "God-given Spirituality?"

Does God suffer? Does Satan suffer? Does God experience pleasure? Does Satan experience pleasure?




posted on Jun, 10 2006 @ 12:00 AM
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I don't have an answer, but some suggested reading would be Job in the bible.
Your post reminds me of that section and the suffering he was put through.



posted on Jun, 10 2006 @ 02:19 AM
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The problem with the book of Job, in my own opinion, is that it isn't a real comfort to me. Of course, Job suffered, and apparently Satan played games with God and God allowed Satan to bring afflictions upon Job. The nature of this was that Satan was trying to prove to God that if Job suffered enough, he would lose faith, and God allowed Job to be tested.

The problem I have with all of this, and maybe the poster considers this also, is why would God allow us to be toyed with on the whims of Satan? Is God trying to prove something to Satan at our expense or is this our lesson. Either way, Job does not reveal anything about why bad things happen, but leaves a lot more unanswered questions. The very best the book does do is come to the climactic conclusion when God speaks to Job and scoldes him that he doesn't know everything and cannot fathom why God does what he does. Furthermore, God doesn't try to even explain in the least anything for Job to have any kind of understanding. Job is left really with no more knowledge than he had before.

So if you are looking for an answer to why some people suffer and some people have pleasure, there is no answer in the book of Job. The only thing apparent in Job, is that the voice of God renews his faith, and of course it is just faith because; his answers are never really answered.



posted on Jun, 10 2006 @ 06:26 PM
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Personally, I have to come to understand that suffering is the fundamental nature of the human condition. Not because God is mean and wants us to suffer, but because the irrevocable nature of organic life is to live, struggle, and then die. We see this all around in all of nature. And we are no less a part of the food chain than a lion or an insect.

Our bodies are 'eaten' by the earth, though, but still our physical substance returns to that from which it came, so to speak.

We suffer as human beings because God has much bigger things in mind for all of us. Whether we believe there is a God, or not. We all suffer, whether atheist, agnostic, zealot, wiccan, catholic, etc...

Even the free spirit suffers in this life. Especially the free spirit suffers because that is the heart of the suffering--realizing that this is not the true existence and enduring the wait until things change.

All the testing in between is for the same purpose for which all testing is given: to evaluate, hone, and perfect our abilities. In this case, it is the ability to love one another. And part of that is losing sources and objects of love (objects should not be loved, but that is tested through, as well) as well as our dreams.



posted on Jun, 10 2006 @ 06:29 PM
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I forgot to add:

the condition of experiencing suffering as opposed to pleasure, as humans, I think, is more about our outlook than what happens to us. It boils down to optimism vs pessimism.

I had some times, several year's worth, of what I thought to be the worst suffering I'd ever had. But when it was over, I realized that was the most valuable time of my life as far as advancing both mortal and spiritual maturity.

Remember: what doesn't kill you just makes you stronger!



posted on Jun, 10 2006 @ 08:18 PM
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Originally posted by ben91069
Is God trying to prove something to Satan at our expense or is this our lesson.


I would leave out the at our expense part of the sentence. And then the answer to the question is yes on both parts.



posted on Jun, 10 2006 @ 10:37 PM
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You mean to say, dbrandt, that God is seeking to prove something to Satan?

Or do you mean, instead, that God is seeking to give us a lesson?

[edit on 6/10/2006 by queenannie38]



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 01:30 AM
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What is the Human Suffering/Pleasure Ratio?


I'd say the biggest factors in an individual's life would be them. I'd think it be mostly up to them, the observer. Dependant upon what neuro-peptides have saturated their systems most, and what their cells may be addicted to, as well as the individual's choices about life.



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 01:44 AM
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Originally posted by GreatTech
Since I became an adult my suffering has been so immense that I only attribute it to Satan.


I don't believe in Satan so I don't believe that Satan suffers or causes suffering.

I believe that Buddha was on to something:

1. If you live you will suffer. Life means suffering.

2. The origin of suffering is attachment and desire.

3. The cessation of suffering is attainable. If one can eliminate desire, they can eliminate suffering.

4. There is a path to the cessation of suffering. The Noble Eight-fold Path can eliminate desire.

I am not a practising Buddhist, but I do agree that suffering is caused by wanting what we don't have or can't obtain. If we learn to be happy with what we have or with what is attainable, then we suffer less. It just makes more sense than God playing games with us, testing us, or allowing Satan to torture us.

The lesson is, in my opinion, to live in a simple way and be at peace.

(I also agree with Esoteric! We can program ourselves for misery or for happiness. The brain is an amazing tool.)



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 08:08 AM
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Originally posted by queenannie38
You mean to say, dbrandt, that God is seeking to prove something to Satan?

Or do you mean, instead, that God is seeking to give us a lesson?

[edit on 6/10/2006 by queenannie38]


I would say God is proving something to all of His creation and preparing people to live with Him in eternity.



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 08:37 AM
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I just can't relate to a God that feels he must 'prove' something to little old me. Maybe he is trying to get me to prove something, instead.



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 12:10 PM
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Originally posted by queenannie38
I just can't relate to a God that feels he must 'prove' something to little old me. Maybe he is trying to get me to prove something, instead.



prove ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prv)
To establish the truth or validity of by presentation of argument or evidence.
Law. To establish the authenticity of (a will).
To determine the quality of by testing; try out.

satan rejected God and the idea that God alone is who He is, God. satan sought his own will and mankind bought into that wrong idea and rejected God also.

We are seeing the results of that all around us. A planet filled with death and destruction. God is once and forevermore proving that He is right in what He says and does by allowing this temporary mess and showing creation that running things without His ways as law brings grief and havoc.

[edit on 11-6-2006 by dbrandt]



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 03:55 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by queenannie38
I just can't relate to a God that feels he must 'prove' something to little old me. Maybe he is trying to get me to prove something, instead.



prove ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prv)
To establish the truth or validity of by presentation of argument or evidence.
Law. To establish the authenticity of (a will).
To determine the quality of by testing; try out.



Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
(Exodus 16:4 KJV)


God is testing us--not putting Himself to the test for our benefit.

We are not to 'tempt' God:


Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
(Matthew 4:7 KJV)


Tempt:Strong's #G1598:ekpeirazo--to test thoroughly.


satan rejected God and the idea that God alone is who He is, God.

Now where the heck do you find that written in the bible? Or did you hear that in church?


satan sought his own will and mankind bought into that wrong idea and rejected God also.

Man sought his own will, disobeying God. Satan will tempt man, because after all, that is his job--he is the adversary. But Satan didn't reject God--he follows God's command and does what he is to do. Read the book of Job. No being that has rejected God comes and presents himself before God and then goes and does what he is permitted to do, and nothing more. God told him not to touch Job's life. And Satan didn't.


We are seeing the results of that all around us. A planet filled with death and destruction.

Death came by Adam, not Satan. Read Paul's words:


For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
(1 Corinthians 15:21 KJV)


That is one of religion's chief cop-outs--saying that it is all Satan's fault. Yet Christ died for man, not Satan. Satan is not God's enemy--if he were, then surely the highest ranking archangel wouldn't have hesitated to call him out on the carpet. But Michael is under God's command, just like the rest. And when it was time to fight about things, it was God that told the angels that it was 'ring-time.' Then, and only then, did they put their gloves on and come out fighting.

Christian theology:
*it's Satan's fault
*but he's condemned and we're saved
*but only if we do something to help ourselves, by accepting the One sent by God
(I hate to break it to you, but we already rejected Christ--He went ahead and gave His life for us all, anyway; while we were yet God's enemies)
*and the whole scenario is really bad all the way around, for us, not Satan.

First of all:
we're not guilty?
And second of all:
we can actually help ourselves out of this mess?
And so man is called on to finish Christ's work by 'accepting salvation?'

Bovine feces. 100% pure steer manure.

Do you not see how much that whole slick flim-flam is promoting man's pride, once again--no different than day one. And once again, man is fooled by the temptation of pride and will. Chalk another one up for the snake, boys.


You know, the ninth letter of the Hebrew alphabet is tet and it means, literally 'snake.' It also means, figuratively, 'hidden good in what appears at first to be evil.' And 9 is the number of judgment.

Satan, believe it or not, is actually working for our good, as well, under God's orders. If not for his testing and suggesting, whispering in our ear all sorts of silly schemes, we might not have as many good ideas about how to resist God's will. It might take a very long time to learn without a catalyst. We don't have to listen. He can't make us. We can't blame him for our own lack of wisdom.

I can tell you from personal experience, God will test you until you bow before Him in true willingness out of sheer humility--and the longer a person denies their own accountability for their actions, and even their small part in the way the world is, today--the longer it takes to become humble and submissive to God's will. We may have been given reprieve from capital punishment--but the flip side of that is that every single soul will have to give an accounting for his actions in this life. There is nothing we can do so bad that we can get out of facing the judgment seat.

When I was a kid, I didn't worry about hell. I got baptized at 8 years old and I believed in God. So, according to what I read in the bible, I was taken care of. But what scared me far worse than hell ever could was the idea of having to face God in a state of shame and regret for various personal let-downs--I wasn't worried that He'd be angry and withdraw His promise of life--but I didn't want to disappoint Him, above all other things! I was scared of falling short in His eyes. At that age, of course I didn't understand what 'justification' meant and why it was important.

That kind of fear is the only one that works toward true conversion of the soul. But if a person is scared of potentially missing out on life, how can they get to the point of loving God enough not to want to disappoint Him? How does the ultimatim of hell given by so-called authorities of the clergy bring people closer to God? That kind of fear is not of love, but is tyrannical oppression. It does not liberate and therefore cannot be truth.

There is one thing that hurts any child's heart, far more than inciting their father's anger: and that is hearing their father say 'I'm really disappointed in you.' If you grew up with a dad around, then I'm positive you can relate to that. Am I right, dbrandt? As a father, yourself, now, what's your understanding on that side of it?


God is once and forevermore proving that He is right in what He says and does by allowing this temporary mess and showing creation that running things without His ways as law brings grief and havoc.


I agree with you part-way on that statement, the latter half. God is allowing us to learn by letting things go the way that they will under mankind's direction. But not in order to prove that He is right. He knows He's right, and we know He's right. What we must learn is that our way is not His way and so He tests us until we prove we will walk in His law. And the way that comes about is by trials and struggle--until finally we prove to ourselves that our own ways never get any closer to perfect--even living to 1000 years old wouldn't allow any man to make all the human mistakes there is to make. The only end to it is giving in. Not giving up, but giving in.



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 05:31 PM
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Originally posted by queenannie38
--not putting Himself to the test for our benefit.

We are not to 'tempt' God:





What are you even talking about? What does this have to do with what was said?



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 05:36 PM
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Originally posted by queenannie38

satan rejected God and the idea that God alone is who He is, God.

Now where the heck do you find that written in the bible? Or did you hear that in church?



Isaiah 14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13] For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 05:48 PM
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Originally posted by queenannie38
When I was a kid, I didn't worry about hell. I got baptized at 8 years old and I believed in God. So, according to what I read in the bible, I was taken care of.


I am guessing that you are talking about water baptism? Water baptism doesn't save anyone. The catholic church teaches that it removes sin but it doesn't. Water baptism is an outward sign of an inward condition.

Believing in God doesn't save anyone either. Alot of people believe there is a God but are not going to spend eternity with Him.

Water baptism and belief in God does not save and that is not what the Bible teaches.

The Bible teaches that mankind is seperated from God by sin. The sin nature we each are born with and the sins we have done because of this nature. Those 2 things need to be dealt with. We cannot live with God(now or in eternity) because of them. They have to be removed from us. The Bible teaches that the one and only way they are removed is by our conscious mental decision to believe that Jesus Christ came to pay the penalty for them. That His death paid the price for God's justice in dealing with sin. They are then transferred to Christ and we are given Christ's righteousness in return. We are forgiven and they are no longer seperating us from God(now and for eternity).



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 07:45 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
What are you even talking about? What does this have to do with what was said?


It has everything in the world to do with the causes and sources of suffering--suffering is a test. Something to prove man's heart--not in order for God to prove anything toward Creation. Just the act of creation should be proof enough for every atom.

There are two ways to look at it, and to say God wants to show proof means that it is He that is being tested. The way you say it makes man in control, with God subject to his approval. But who is the Boss? Man or his Maker?

Those three things that Jesus told Satan in the wilderness are our key to getting through trials and suffering. Satan succeeded with Adam, but he didn't fool Jesus. And it was written down for our benefit, but it's more often than not, disregarded and ignored, in favor of ideas such as 'accepting' the 'free gift' given by Christ to those who are supposedly aware enough to do something toward helping ourselves.

It is not a free gift, according to these verses: Romans 12:1, 1 Corinthians 4:11-14; 2 Corinthians 4:8-10; 11:23-30; Galatians 6:1-5; 2 Timothy 2:1-7; 3:12; Hebrews 2:10; 12:6-11; James 1:12; 1 Peter 2:19-21; 3:14-18; 4:1-2; 5:9-10; 13-19; Revelation 2:10; 3:12.

Why, when you are asked, do you blame it on Satan--when the truth is all about God loving us? We suffer because of salvation. Yet according to the rapture ideas and such, the whole idea is to get out of both hell and a little trouble here on Earth, while all those who aren't so good must stay and suffer.

That's in total contradiction to what the bible says. Check it out for yourself and see if
I don't speak the truth.



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 07:48 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
Isaiah 14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13] For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Do your homework. That's something Jerome stuck in there, a secondary result of the wars going on back then between popes and heretics and what-have-you.

Even if there were such a creature named Lucifer--it doesn't say he rejected God, but that he sought to exalt himself. That's not the same. If anyone is Lucifer, it is mortal man. Me and you and everyone else.



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 08:17 PM
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Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by queenannie38
When I was a kid, I didn't worry about hell. I got baptized at 8 years old and I believed in God. So, according to what I read in the bible, I was taken care of.

I am guessing that you are talking about water baptism?

Of course I am. No 8 year old child was ever given the task of working through salvation--before they're even grown! But I guess there is something to what Christ said about being as a little child. An innocent trust seems quite adequate for the purpose of repentance and trust in God to save. As well, I was just going by what Jesus said:

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
(Mark 16:16 KJV)

Was He not being truthful? Was there more to it? Or is it more important just to do as we are instructed and trust God for the rest? Was I wrong to trust? Misguided?

No. But it took 30 years before I was even through with the very first stage of testing. That was nothing but the start. The Holy Spirit comes, but only as it wills. Jesus told Nicodemus this very thing. We don't see it and can't determine when or how it will come. But if we do as He said, it will come. It worked for me, and I didn't even know there was any more to it until crazy amazing things started to happen.

And haven't I read your very own words, on this forum, saying that when we 'accept Christ' we are then given the holy Spirit within ourselves? How does that happen, just on our own decision and schedule? Were you transformed in the blink of any eye? A totally new person no longer governed by your flesh? Is that who you are right now?


Water baptism doesn't save anyone.

Of course it doesn't. Only Jesus saves. But it does serve a purpose, or else He wouldn't have done it for our example and told us to do it ourselves.


The catholic church teaches that it removes sin but it doesn't. Water baptism is an outward sign of an inward condition.

I couldn't care less what the Catholic church, or any other teaches--I'm not catholic, anyway. Water baptism is for repentance. Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:4. I repented of my own free will. That's the whole purpose, isn't it? We die in the water, and then we are given life when He raises us. Not at the same time, but in that order. To be baptized with water is to die to sin, and to die with Christ. So that we can live when the spirit decides we are ready.

Acts 2:38 says it is for the purpose of remission of sins, in order to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Also 18:8, 19:4 testify that both repentance and belief are very important.

1 Peter 3:21. It is a cleansing of our conscience--and it frees one's mind of being a slave to sin--someone who dwells on sin in their mind serves sin and so therefore are unable to serve God. It is distracting to worry about things that of the world when trying to serve the things of above.


Believing in God doesn't save anyone either.

True enough. But until a person believes that there is a God, there is no path to travel down in order to get to the place of submission and trust.


Alot of people believe there is a God but are not going to spend eternity with Him.

If that were so, then many people who think they've got it made would be doomed. Lucky for us it is not our decision, but God's. We sure wouldn't be able to do what was best, even for our own selves, and those that preach hell would be the first to go there. But since death and the grave are overcome, we are all a lot better off, no matter what we preach.


Water baptism and belief in God does not save and that is not what the Bible teaches.

Prove it--because I know that Jesus said they are what we must do, again Mark 16:16. It is God who does the real work, but that's where the idea of trust comes in. As well as trial and suffering. Are you saying Jesus was wrong?



The Bible teaches that mankind is seperated from God by sin. The sin nature we each are born with and the sins we have done because of this nature. Those 2 things need to be dealt with.

They have been. Completely overcome. Remember, Jesus died already for that purpose? Or did you forget?


We cannot live with God(now or in eternity) because of them.

Bovine feces, dbrandt. Did Jesus not make it possible to enter the holy of holies? Did Jesus not overcome the power of death for all of us. Already? Completely and irrevocably?


They have to be removed from us.

They have been.


The Bible teaches that the one and only way they are removed is by our conscious mental decision to believe that Jesus Christ came to pay the penalty for them.

Show me. More steer manure.


That His death paid the price for God's justice in dealing with sin.

Right! But yet you don't seem to get it, somehow.


They are then transferred to Christ and we are given Christ's righteousness in return.

After, and only after, we suffer and bear our own cross in this lifetime. That comes after we are reconciled to God. We then begin to 'work out our salvation with fear and trembling.'


We are forgiven and they are no longer seperating us from God(now and for eternity).


How are you doubling back and contradicting yourself with such ease--and yet do not seem to understand that what needed to be done on our behalf, has been done already. Finished. It's all over but our own part in the suffering while we remain on earth.



posted on Jun, 11 2006 @ 09:32 PM
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Originally posted by queenannie38

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
(Mark 16:16 KJV)

Was He not being truthful? Was there more to it? Or is it more important just to do as we are instructed and trust God for the rest? Was I wrong to trust? Misguided?




You left out verse 15. According to verse 16 something is to be believed, what is that something. We find out in verse 15 it is the Gospel. The Gospel is that Jesus is the sacrifice that paid the penalty for sin. Now, do I believe Jesus died for my sins, taking my place. Yes I have placed my faith,trust,acceptance,belief in Him. Since then I have been baptized by the Holy Spirit who now dwells in me.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit may be defined as that work whereby the Spirit of God places the believer into union with Christ and into union with other believers in the Body of Christ at the moment of salvation. 1 Corinthians 12:12-13 and Romans 6:1-4 are the central passages in the Bible where we find this doctrine. 1 Corinthians 12:13 states, "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit."

The last half of verse 16 also indicates that some will choose not to believe in the Gospel. One of many verses that indicate this. And this fact is certainly not so that some can feel superior to others, but it is a shame to those who refuse and desire to retain their sins, when there is somone willing to remove them from those unbelievers.

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