The opposite of enlightenment

Hello. I was just wondering what people thought about the existence of a negative enlightenment. In Buddhism, you're taught that there is a duality, and that everything has an equal opposite. It's not good or bad (these are just words), just opposite. Black/white, hot/cold etc. So, if there is a duality, then surely there must be an opposite to enlightenment.

I guess it's possible that the opposite to enlightenment is just being unenlightened, but i would have thought there would be something that was equal to it but in a negative way (as enlightenment is positive so the opposite must be negative, by human definition anyway).

For example, if one was to develop a siddhi (supernatural powers attained through stages of enlightenment) then it's said that if they used it for nefarious purposes then they will lose it (law of karma etc), but surely they can do that and attain some kind of opposite to the siddhi, which must be equal to it - again you could argue that the opposite to the siddhi is just not having it, but that's not really equal is it.

Okay discuss and stuff........

I've done a bit of studying into eastern philosophy, particularly the bodhisatva, tibetian mysticism, and it's my interpretation that the opposite of enlightenment is probably the dogma of attachment. Desire being the root of all human suffering, only through enlightenment can we break the cycle of life, death and rebirth. This is suprisingly similar to the western religons as well if we merely replace enlightenment with knowing god, or the holy spirit. If I had to name the opposite of enlightenment, it would be ignorance, or absense of enlightenment via materialism or attachment. As to what actual enlightenment is, you may find this thread to be of some interest.

Thanks, that threads really interesting. I was thinking that the opposite to enlightenment is jsut simply being unenlightened, I guess the state we live our lives in is about as far from enlightened as you can get. Perhaps the opposite is persistently acting like an animal (through sleeping around, violence etc).

You're right when you say how similar the Eastern philosiphies are to Western religion - I'm totally of the opinion that Jesus was a Buddha. He disappeared for a long time and then emerged with many powers - could quite easily have gone East as his many miracles easily tie in with the Buddhist siddhis. Furthermore, his teachings are very much of the "man IS God" variety, quite separate from Judaism of the time.

I wouldn't say acting like an animal is a bad thing. That is if you mean really acting like and animal or what people mean by acting like an animal. When animals sleep around they do that because they need to. If they didn't they would die out. Animals are violent when they need to protect themself for their familys.

Originally posted by stulancs
I guess it's possible that the opposite to enlightenment is just being unenlightened, but i would have thought there would be something that was equal to it but in a negative way (as enlightenment is positive so the opposite must be negative, by human definition anyway).

Enlightenment is positive by human definition but maybe it's not so positive after all. The other side of enlightenment could be people who see it but then lose thier minds. This would be considered negative to us because to us the person has lost their mind (they don't fit in with society) but really they have seen truth. It seems bad to us and the way these people get treated may be bad but it could just be the opposite of what we consider someone who has been enlightened and remained stable.

Styki

Yes, there is an opposite to awakening to good. There is what they call a White Lodge and a Black Lodge. There is alchemy, and then there is black tantra. There is the kundalini, and then there is the opposite, which is developing a tail called a kundabuffer instead.

You can awaken to either light or darkness. There are very powerful 'evil' entities, just like there are very powerful 'good' ones.

[edit on 8-6-2006 by Yarcofin]

all of this dogma is trash. there is no universal law of kharma, or anything else. enlightenment im sure is not all its crack up to be, and is actually subjective. there is no objective enlightenment. i could be enlightened by getting the materialistic things i want in life, or by learning to levitate. enlightenment is just a word, and is still very subjective. there is nothing wrong with being a little animalistic. thats why life sucks, and is f"ing great at the same time, and well, it insures our survival. its there for a reason.

blah blah blah. read more material and think. dont get caught up in the rant of someone because you think life is trash, because of a few bad incidences. i can debate black vs white, animal vs enlightened, for a millenium. why? because theyre b.s and must coexist in this world, in order for there to even be a possibility of peace or survival.

the true zone would be the gray zone. where neither black nor white affect you, but then that zone really serves no purpose if its not influenced by black or white. its just there.

planet earth, here and now, can never reach 100% peace. its not possible. why even bother. it could be way better, but, well, im done. i dont care. i hate philosophy. its an endless road of cool lights and fun stuff. keeps you interested constantly, but really pointless in the end

jimmy1200 you have a very cynical philosophy...

Wake up do you not see the world around you is collapsing? The powers that be are getting scared because more and more people have awoken. Their power base is being challenged by people who have taught peace and harmony not hate and war like those of current administrations and/or religious dogmas. I would assume you are Christian and probably Conservative because of the attitude you have towards life. Do you hate life badly enough to push people away and disregard their opinions so fruitlessly? At least have the common decency to respect people's opinions in this free speech zone (fortunately) and give peace a chance.

Originally posted by jimmy1200
i could be enlightened by getting the materialistic things i want in life, or by learning to levitate. enlightenment is just a word

I somehow doubt that jimmy. I don't think you fully understand the term, or fully appreciate the implications of the word. True realization is profound and life changing experience, but you are in a sense right about it being subjective in that trying to convey the experience, or explain the experience would be like trying to tell a blind man what the color green looks like. Don't mitigate the experience you don't fully understand without some further investigation, you may be suprised what lurks around in the unexplored reigons of your own consciousness. Science has only recently 'proven' what ancient mystics have known for thousands of years, that all matter is energy, resonance, harmonics, waves, all of these things were suprisingly well understood by the ancient eastern theologies, while conversly our ancestors were busy sharpening sticks and gathering nuts and berries.

Enlightenment doesn't mean anything,so it must has no opposite.
Do you know

ZEN

.

Originally posted by stulancs
Hello. I was just wondering what people thought about the existence of a negative enlightenment. In Buddhism, you're taught that there is a duality, and that everything has an equal opposite.

Thats in some types of buddhism, but in many other types there is nothing. The negative-positive duality idea seems to be more strongly associated with persian religious beleifs, rather than buddhist ones (though I am clearly no expert in either).

So, if there is a duality, then surely there must be an opposite to enlightenment.

I would think that since enlightment is associated with a state of 'zen', then it is its own opposite, or contains its opposite within itself.

Here’s my take on “unenlightenment”

If ‘majority rules’ means anything and it apparently does to many,

Unenlightenment is the choice of the multitude.

Most humans on earth chose to remain unenlightened about almost everything. Just read the posts in here and ATS is one of, if not the, most intelligent sites where folks can share their opinions related to almost anything. The majority of members appear to be well informed and they stem from all over the planet.

You get better science posts on a science oriented site, better psychology on sites that appeal to human dynamics specialists, better sites on any discipline on sites devoted to the specific subject matter but, on sites where anything goes, ATS is well presented.

So, I find it fun to read what people say and apparently think. I have fun pointing out contrasting views to some and supporting the positions of others.

ATS is folks just a talking and sharing ‘thinks’ and some among us even have the ability to change our ‘thinks’ when presented with appropriate verifiable, contrasting information and what could be more fun? Well, at least acceptable fun approved in our politically “correct” atmosphere, for polite conversation.

in buddhism there is no black and white (evil good etc etc.) after enlightenment.
But in the material world there is.
but the beliefs we have around it come not from knowledge but of belief . the ignorant one becomes the more one loses power.
lets say a person developed siddhis and used it for (unconcious purposes) when one is unconcious entities (mostly group entities) start sucking all the energy of the person and start giving back a few "powers" when that person is all dried up they move on.
there is no opposite to enlightenment because there is no enlightenment(not in the material sense) its faulty to try to give something such as enlightenment a name enligthenment is not about "light" but about soemthing beyond good and evil beyond that when you are above material you see a symphony of high and low energy states balancing each other out.
and the opposite of enlightenment is sort of like shrinking shrinking in conciousness and energy
sorry my writing is kind of confusing

Originally posted by bscale
Enlightenment doesn't mean anything,so it must has no opposite.
Do you know

ZEN

.

The Purity of Nothingness vs The Hunger of Knowledge

Originally posted by jimmy1200
all of this dogma is trash. there is no universal law of kharma, or anything else. enlightenment im sure is not all its crack up to be, and is actually subjective. there is no objective enlightenment. i could be enlightened by getting the materialistic things i want in life, or by learning to levitate. enlightenment is just a word, and is still very subjective. there is nothing wrong with being a little animalistic. thats why life sucks, and is f"ing great at the same time, and well, it insures our survival. its there for a reason.

blah blah blah. read more material and think. dont get caught up in the rant of someone because you think life is trash, because of a few bad incidences. i can debate black vs white, animal vs enlightened, for a millenium. why? because theyre b.s and must coexist in this world, in order for there to even be a possibility of peace or survival.

the true zone would be the gray zone. where neither black nor white affect you, but then that zone really serves no purpose if its not influenced by black or white. its just there.

planet earth, here and now, can never reach 100% peace. its not possible. why even bother. it could be way better, but, well, im done. i dont care. i hate philosophy. its an endless road of cool lights and fun stuff. keeps you interested constantly, but really pointless in the end

Obviously angry that you tried to find enlightenment and failed. dont give up keep trying there will be many tests along the way and without persistance you will never see the truth

eckhart-tolle-forum.inner-growth.info...

lets see a little eckhart tolle

i agree with twichy's first post on the topic
the opposite of enlightenment would be ignorance yet i still feel it should be more than that. i would be lead to believe that it would be an IGNORANT EPIPHANY if that makes any sense

The opposite of enlightenment is "I need this for this".

Here´s a rebuttal to add to the mix of this thread:

The state of enlightenment does not contain a duality of enlightened-unenlightened but an integrative state of all-that-is within and without. In ones native state all-that-is (including desire) is well and has its place. Therefore, there is no opposite of it. Opposites exist in this realm and frame-of-mind only.

In a word, ignorance.