Originally posted by pavil
Would there be this much of an uproar if Russia were the one's instead of the U.S. doing the military exercises under the same exact set of situations?

Almost. Not in Crymea, but in West Ukraine which is overly nationalistic. Basically they hate Russia (not on a personal level, but as am imperial idea) enough to prefer another imperial idea, the US, in its stead.

IF Russian troops landed for an exercise, this would be welcome news in East Ukraine.

Originally posted by Aelita
IF Russian troops landed for an exercise, this would be welcome news in East Ukraine.

Even if it is illegal as others are saying in this thread? Can't have it both ways.

Thats the issue. Russia would not hold military exercises in Ukraine besides Crimea. Why? Because they don't need to. Unlike what some of you may think, Putin isn't interested in playing old Cold War games like Bush. Putin is interested in rebuilding Russian economy based on nationalized natural resources, and improving trade links with neighboors- much like he has done with Kazakhstan, Germany, Italy, China, Japan, and others. Military build-up is on the bottom of Russian things-to-do list, while it's way up top on the US list. The only reason why Russian military is/was present in Crimea is because not long before the fall of the Soviet Union they pumped lots of money into building military bases and infrastructure there- to face off against NATO member Turkey. I know alot about this because I lived for 2 years on one of the Black Sea Fleet bases near Feodosiya. And now Americans are bringing their ships only miles from where the Russian ships used to be only years ago, and a few still remain.

Russia doesn't need to hold military exercises in Ukraine. Neither is it interested in invading Ukraine. It's would be like U.S. invading Canada. Similarly Ukraine has no need for NATO to protect it against Cold War boogeymen.

Sure Ukraine could improve relations with the US and EU- nobody is keeping them from it except the Ukrainians themselves. But why go into a military alliance so quick after Yushenko came to power? Americans might not understand this- but this is reason to suspect. Yushenko is likely afraid that he will lose next elections- probably to Timoshenko (who as not as pro-US, but neither is pro-Russian yet), and he wants to secure the US investments in the Orange Revolution by inviting them over for some war games. First war games, then military bases, then peaceful occupation, then a basis for a new Cold War. US is well used to occupying countries in this way and it is a wonder all Ukrainians don't see it.

i have nothing against Ukraine forming close economic ties with US and Ukraine- more power to them. But Yushenko is spitting in the face of Russia- old friends (and yes they were friends and partly still remain such) and partners- by inviting NATO in. What I am worried about is that this will not sit well with Russia.



Bush keeps trumpeting his war on Terrorism AKA OilProducingCountriesUnfriendlyToUS, and wonders why Russia isn't at their side for this crusade. Well here is your answer. Fighting Iraq with one hand, and pushing Russia away from Europe with another hand. Bush should choose one war and finish it before starting new conflicts. Hasn't anyone taught him not to make too many enemies- especially as powerful as Russia. Why US is interested in restarting the Cold War is beyond me, and I can only guess. But it is equally troubling that people in America are paying so little attention to the events that could define the rest of this century.

Is the history of Russian extermination of Ukrainians a nd the recent cut off of gas bt Russia the reason for the paranoia of foreign troops?

It is surprising that most people don't realize what US is doing all over Eurasia with their color-coded revolutions, including that in Ukraine. They have their own agenda and couldn't give two ****'s about interests of the nations they are exploiting. US wants to make sure that its old mortal enemy and the ubiquitous evil empire, Russia, is neutralized from all sides. God forbid Cold War strat again, but this time US is ready. They will surround Russia with puppet states like Ukraine and Georgia, and isolate it from Europe, where God forbid Russia is telling others what to pay for Russian energy resources. NOOOO that can't happen- US dictates energy prices world wide- how can Putin not know that. Ukrainians are just being used by US in its quest for restructuring the world in its favor. This has nothing to do with what is better for Ukraine, and all to do with US.


Well as I said before Russia is looking for allies in unlikely places to know- compliments to US.
1. New oil pipeline to China and heavy investment by China in Russia. Possibly military partnership looming.
2. An alliance on the way with India which is already buying loads of newest Russia military tech and holding war games together. No wonder Bush recently looked into improving relations with India himself.
3. Selling war jets to Mexico.
4. New contracts with Venezuela. Look for improving relations with Bolivia, Peru, and other Latin countries in the near future.
5. Quietly blocking US action against Iran.
6. Holding talks with factions in Gaza, Syria, Sudan, and Turkey.

I do not have alot of sources, but this stuff is easy to look up on google. My father and grandfather are both political historians and were professors in state university in St. Petersburg. They have alot of insider opinions on these events but I will not go into those.

Originally posted by Jadette

If you read further in the article, they make it clear that Russia does indeed hold military exercises in Ukraine. And isn't there a joint Russian/Ukranian naval base in Sebastopol?

Yes Russia is holding military exercises there, but it's only in Crimea. And they have paid the agreed-upon lease for the military bases they are using. Just before the fall of Soviet Union they made huge investments to build new bases and infrastructure in Crimea, and understandingly they did not want to lose it all. Ukraine in the 90's signed an agreement to allow Russia to lease them. The protests against Russian exercises only appeared after the Orange Revolution. The protesters were mostly Ukrainian youths (under age of 20) who are members of the new nationalist movement.

The same movement that is funded by the US. The same movement that calls for banning Russian language, which is spoken by 60% of Ukrainians and 95% of Crimeans. In fact recently there were regional brawls and small conflicts between pro-Russian Crimeans and nationalist Ukrainians who mostly come to Crimea to protest from Kiev and Western Ukraine. These nationalists are not welcome there.


last year i have visited my friends in Simferopol and personally witnessed a group fight between nationalists from Kiev and local Crimeans. Its a shame that this national divide is all America's making. Before Yuschenko this would have never happened. Now the nation is dangerously divided.

Moldova, Slovakia and Poland all recently became outposts of American military bases, or are cooperating with NATO, and Britain is a full pledged member of NATO. They are all playing America's game. Before Yuschenko Ukraine never cooperated militarily with those nations.

Last year Yuschenko promised Ukrainians that NATO or any other foreign power would cooperate with/enter Ukraine only with the consent of the overwhelming majority. However even the pro-Orange factions (like Timoshenko) are against this current incursion. US and Yuschenko don't seem to care however.


And if you go to blame Yuschenko one should also blame US. It was US who installed him as president there, and each of his actions has been to bring the US closer to forming military bases there. And US is in on it. If American ships knew they are not welcome and would cause a stir- and they did know- why did they still decide to enter?

[edit on 6-6-2006 by maloy]

Originally posted by shots
All this fuss over joint military exercises is ridiculous.

No its not. If you wanted to take over the state, you'd be able to sneak in military forces in such a way. Conspiracy theory is very popular in eastern europe, it dictated policy in Serbia in the lead up and follow up to the Nato-Serb war, for example. Paranoia about a plot of outsiders to take over the state isn't ridiculous. Consider all the conspiracy theories about a secret UN takeover of the US, they're not so ridiculous as they first appear.

Originally posted by Nygdan

No its not. If you wanted to take over the state, you'd be able to sneak in military forces in such a way. Conspiracy theory is very popular in eastern europe, it dictated policy in Serbia in the lead up and follow up to the Nato-Serb war, for example.

My bad. Sorry I was thinking out side of the conspriacy box. Sorry

No conspiracy here. It's all very obvious if you bother to look at the history of events there (as well as in Georgia) in the last 3 years.

1. After 9/11 US makes an entire plan for gaining more influence in the region.
2. US heavily invests in opposition parties and funds protests.
3. US protests every election where pro-US party loses, and praises every election where pro-US party wins.
4. One by one the old pro-Russian parties lose power to pro-US parties.
5. US goes ahead with placing military outposts in their new contingent states.
6. US launches a campaign across Europe critisizing Putin and his strengthening of control in Russia, while behind the curtain it is supporting corrupt governments in post-Soviet republics.
6 Americans don't know much of what is going on because all the focus is on Iraq/Iran.

All is well for America here- New military bases, new corrupt governments to pad on the back- nothing to worry about. Heck I live in the US, and if I didn't know any better this is great news- our world wide power is growing.

Except one thing- Russia is watching the whole thing, and hardly liking it. How would you feel if China or Russia suddenly placed military bases in Canada, Mexico, and all over the Carribeans, and at the same time had the courage to critisize Bush on his un-Democratic behavior.

All's cool. Have your military bases all over Eastern Europe. But do not be surprised when Russia forms a military alliance with China, India, Iran and Venezuela. That will give us a few more things to worry about than Osama and his Pushtun buddies.

Originally posted by Jadette
I got the impression that there's a lot of pressure from Russia to try and reassimulate Ukraine.

There is some of that, but it's so heavy handed and inefficient, it only achieves the opposite effect.

It is true, however, that the population of East Ukraine is pro-Russian. There are many ethnic Russians there, and Ukranian was never widely spoken there in the first place. They speak either pure Russian or sometimes a dialect known as surzhik (Russian grammar + Ukranian vocabulary). Mostly Russian, though.

I'm talking from the first hand experience. The region is industrialized and stands to profit from unfettered business links to Russia. Any more to EU is clearly detrimental to East Ukraine (and I believe to the rest of that country).

Or at least, control it. And then there's the whole gas thing too.

Russians have the right to charge the fair price for the gas. Is it a form of pressure? Yes. But for Gossakes, the current leadership of Ukraine wants to join NATO, which is clearly and anti-Russian step. Why should Russia give Ukraine preferential status, under those circumstances?

Originally posted by Aelita
Russians have the right to charge the fair price for the gas. Is it a form of pressure? Yes. But for Gossakes, the current leadership of Ukraine wants to join NATO, which is clearly and anti-Russian step. Why should Russia give Ukraine preferential status, under those circumstances?

Russia is in tough situtation itself. With pro-US governments in Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova, the Baltics, Poland, Turkey and Romania among others, all of the pipelines running from Russia to Europe pass through at least one of those countries. Russia heavily depends on those pipelines for profit, just like much of Europe depends on those pipelines for gas. Its a mutual situation, and Russia has to balance prices and politics. If they charge too much for gas, the host countries might just cut off the pipeline thats on their land.

All might change with a new pipeline thats being built through the baltic sea. Its a cooperation with Germany, and not surprisingly most of Europe is opposed to it.

yall are talking to deeply into this. all this talk of mexican soldiers in the USA for relief efforts should have, by law, been repelled. and now, this boat in Ukraine that had approval from the president but not the parliament or whatever....

well, uhhh, whatever. these are things we just need to let slide and stop talking about it.
in the end, J-walking is illegal too. i'm sure you've done it. so is drinking alcohol before you're 21. im sure you've done it. and i've actually heard(sorry i cannot find a source) from a middle school teacher of mine that sex without the intent of procreation is illegal. im not sure if that is a federal law or just some states- or even 1 state carries that law. all i know is that not only makes you guilty, but condom manufacturers and all their employees an accessory.

sometimes you just gotta say.... "whatever."