The creation and operation of any armed formations not envisaged by law are prohibited on the territory of Ukraine.

It flatly prohibits military bases in the line above the one I quoted, but this statement leave it ambigous at best, as to the constitutionality of the presence of armed formations within their territory with the clause, "not envisaged by law." If I'm reading this right, a special law has to be passed in order for such an excersize to be lawfull. Could an Executive Order be considered "envisaged by law?"

[edit on 5-6-2006 by sardion2000]

Originally posted by iskander
It's kind of like answering every question with an question.

Is it really though?

p.s. Russians is written with capital R, just as with Americans is written with a capital A, and so on. A Freudian little slip up there I see.

How is that freudian?

Dow is down 200 points. Nasdaq 50, S&P 23, and going.

Whats that got to do with it?

Nygdan,

I am fluent in Russian and can read a little tiny bit of Ukranian. From what I gather, the situation is sort of grey area, and depends on interpretation of existing laws. The ship delivered a cargo that is milirary materiel, however in itself was not classified as a warship. Go figure.

I would give the protesters the benefit of doubt and demand a better explanation, and protocol, from the authorities. Which first lied about this affair (i.e. the nature of the delivery that took place).

I have been closely following these developments on the Russian news network (NTV), and they pay far greater attention to it then the US news. However I am not surprised the US isn't making a big deal about this, because this just goes to show how quickly the Staged Orange revolution disintegrated into a clear cut case of US military expansion to neutralize Russia.

Most of the Russian Black Sea Fleet is, or was recetly staged in the Crimea, and it goes a long way in supporting local economy. Without it the local residents are afraid they'll be left without jobs and economic stimuli. Russia is not resisting US encroachment around it, but do not be surprised it things quickly change for the worse.

I try to keep up with political situation in Russia, and I would predict that since the West has been cut off by US Russia will look for allies in the East- China and India- which it is already beginning to do. Slowly it looks like a new Cold War is shaping in Eurasia, and US is the one adding fueling it this time. As for Ukraine- Yushenko's political career is all but finished.


The Russians and Ukraine's old leadership definitely did not have their hands clean, although it is still only a theory that Yushenko was targeted for assassination. However Russia and Ukraine are natural allies, and have always been such throughout history. Millions of Russians reside in Ukraine, and millions of Ukrainians reside in Russia. Furthermore both countries depend on each other for trade. It is simply not US's bussiness to go about militarizing Ukraine. This is very sensitive to Pro-Russian Ukranians- and there is far more of them then US makes it seem- and to Russians. The two countries have very close cultural ties, and only in the recent years has stigmatic Ukrainian nationalism been fueled by the US, in order to drive the two allies apart.

How do I know this? I spend most of my life living in both of those countries. And I must say it really hurts to see US driving this wedge between two people who have always considered each other brothers.

iskander I tend to think you might be one of those demonstrators and have an anti agenda here.

Obvioulsy the government was aware they were coming or they would not have sent a harbor pilot out to guide it into the harbor, it is as simple as that no pilot and the ship would never have entered the port. Nor did they send a coast guard vessel out to tell it they were not welcome.

With that said, they were expected meaning they were welcome.

I also tend to think you are making more out of this then there really is protesters are known to do that.

It might not seem like a big deal in US, but over in Russia and Ukraine it is. And since US is involved with this it wouldn't hurt to get a little more info out. As matter of fact tensions around the Black Sea are growing almost daily- not just within Ukraine but between Georgia and Abkhasia. All this could escalate into a major conflict drawing both US and Russia into it, even if not directly.

Better watch this closely. With all the attention on Iran and Iraq, US actions in other parts of the world go nearly unnoticed.

Originally posted by iskander
Well this is really clear.

Representatives of Feodosiya city council have unanimously voted to declare the area as a "NATO free territory", thus empowering local authorities and militias to resist US actions.

Not to stir up trouble, but why is a city dictating/creating foreign policy to the national government? It sounds to me that your country has a power struggle going on between pro-western and pro-Russian viewpoints, which is fine but don't let your cities make foreign policy for you, makes you look bad.

[Mod Edit: Link Of Great Length Truncated.

[edit on 5/6/2006 by Mirthful Me]

That has to be my favorite Mod Edit message I have seen. Too Funny.

Originally posted by pavil

Not to stir up trouble, but why is a city dictating/creating foreign policy to the national government? It sounds to me that your country has a power struggle going on between pro-western and pro-Russian viewpoints, which is fine but don't let your cities make foreign policy for you, makes you look bad.

There is a power struggle, but it's not just a city- more like half of the country. And a large part of the Parliament supports them.

Originally posted by maloy

There is a power struggle, but it's not just a city- more like half of the country. And a large part of the Parliament supports them.

So what is the solution Ukraine sounds just at divided as the Republicans and Democrats in the U.S. If I remember my recollections from a report I read, it is a pretty regional divide with some areas very pro one side or the other, is that correct? There is not much overall support on average nationwide for one side or the other. Hope you have some good politicians over there or else things could get dicey again.

Sure its normal to have a nation divided over some issues like abortion, gun control, economy, etc. But this is a far more sensitive issue- where a military force that less than 2 decades ago was a mortal enemy, is now at your front door waiting to come in with all of its toys. Just like alot of Americans are still somewhat antipathetic of communism, alot of Ukrainians and Russians- particularly those 30 years and older- take much offense with letting NATO into their land. Remember that they were taught all of their life that NATO is their enemy. And what are NATO's intentions in Ukraine? To get their forces ready to attack Russia- a land that shares so much culturally, economically, and historically with Ukraine? You need to be very familiar will Ukraine and Russia to understand just how serious this is. This isn't some debate about some small national issue- its a move that could decide the future relations between two world powers.

Plus it is a little too quick for NATO to be coming in. Yushenko only came to power less than 2 years ago, and already NATO is disembarking its equipment and mapping out potential military bases. I heard from local Ukrainians who worked for an airbase in crimea, that US officials are visiting their bases and taking away their Soviet era aircraft and radar equipment possibly to the US. I do not have credible sources, but I would rather be surprised if this wasn't the case.

Even members of NATO are questioning whether NATO is moving too fast. Or perhaps US is scared that Yushenko will lose power soon, and all the money that US pumped into the Orange Revolution will go to waste. US has to have its forces in place in case that Ukrainians want to shift back to an alliance with Russia.

Thanks pavil. I have been reading ATS for more than a year but just registered now.

No I am not from the 30's crowd. I am 21, I currently live in the US, and Stalin and Beria among a few other degenerates of the 20th century are two people I hate the most. In no way do want to live under conditions that existed in Russia or Ukraine back then, and in no way do I want communism to make a comeback there. However Russia and Ukraine have been allies not just under the Soviet regime, but had close ties throught history. In fact Crimea was won from the Turks by the Russians, and only became official part of Ukraine during the Soviet era. it is just that it is disgusting for me to look at the ultra nationalist pro-Orange Ukrainian youth, who all of the sudden have a deep hatered for Russia seemingly out of nowhere. US must have done a really good job with their Orange Revolution propaganda. They start accusing Russia of Soviet era crimes all of the sudden.


Soviet Union was just that - a union. Sure Russia had the most influence due to their large population, but everyone had a say. In fact the Communists were careful to balance out regional interests and gave plenty of territotrial concessions to other republics- especially under Khruschev and Gorbachev. Yes there were tensions, and yes there was cruelty and innocent people suffered. Denying crimes during Soviet Era is like denying Holocaust ever existed. However it is incorrect to blame Russia. Yes Ukraine suffered alot, because under Stalin they were forced to feed the whole Soviet Union- Ukraine has some of the richest farm land in the work. However after Stalin the situation improved dramatically. Stalin, himself a Georgian, was a madman not unlike Hitler. He and his puppet assassin Beria, happened to come to power, and afterwards everybody suffered- Russians, Ukrainians and everyone else between Poland and the far East. Idiots happen in history, and all we can do is learn not to put them in power in the future ( a certain US president comes to mind).

It is needless to say that current Russian regime has completely denounced everything that had to do with Stalin - in fact that happened back when Khruschev was in power. In the 90's the Russian close ties with Ukraine were more economical than military. I already mentioned that much of Crimean economy revolves/revolved around servicing the Russian Black Sea Fleat. Russians paid something like a lease for their bases in Crimea, and before Yuschenko Ukrainians never complained about it. In fact even outside Crimea, many factories continued working only because of contracts with Russia- supplying jobs for thousands.

And its ironic that SOME (emphasis that it is not the opinion of all Ukrainians) Ukrainians blame Russia for their suffering under Soviet regime. Ukrainian communist party was the most extreme and hardlined among the communists of the Soviet Union. They had the highest membership percentage among the population. Sure there was opposition, but back then (50's-70's) the vast majority of Ukrainians were very pro-Soviet. Once again- yes they suffered unjustly under Stalin- but after that they always considered themselves a full-pledged member of the Union.



And now they go blaming Soviets for current problems. Might as well blame the Germans for the havoc they wrecked in Ukraine during WWII. Or the Polish occupation hundreds of years ago maybe? Or maybe those Turks in the Crimea? Oh and don't forget to demand those reparations from the Mongolians- they did invade half of Eurasia and kill off 1/4 of Ukrainian population.

Ukraine's current problem isn't Russia. Russia just wants to expand its economy right now. It's the US thats about to exploit Ukraine for its own benefit- believe me American military bases in Ukraine will not benefit any Ukrainians. Russia would never attack Ukraine.

[edit on 5-6-2006 by maloy]

[edit on 5-6-2006 by maloy]

Iskander, your original post suggested that American ordnance convoys were fanning out across Ukraine, only to be blocked by angry locals. However, none of the links you posted contains any such statement; it appears that the material brought by the ship never left the port area. Or did I miss something?

At any rate, could you please substantiate the following?

Originally posted by iskander
The fact of the matter is that US engineer core, NAVY Marines and arms/munitions convoys have been blockaded in EVERY single city they have attempted to cross. Some of the cities include Simferopol, Staryy Krym, Partenit, Alusha, etc.

All of the convoys could not reach their destinations and had to be diverted do to overwhelming number of demonstrators which simply blocked all roads.

A convoy of 150 engineer core troops on the way to Staryy Krym base was totally blockaded by demonstrators forcing the convoy to be diverted to the Ministry of Defense sanatory in Partenit, again, the residents of Partenit blockaded the roads and the convoy again was forced to take another detour, this time to another army sanatorium in Alushty. Upon arrival in Alushty the personnel of the sanatorium refused to accept US troops. Local residents immediately began converging on the convoy and forced it out of the area. Upon hearing the news of US convoys, residents of nearby Bolshoi Alushti began constructing another chain of blockades in order to prevent the passage of the convoy through their city.

I look forward to hearing from you about this.

And now to a far more important subject:

Originally posted by smallpeeps
For the record tho', I don't Think you can Tell things about People by the Capitalized words In their Posts. ]

I beg to differ. You can tell a lot.

no caps at all. not even at the head of sentences: person relatively young and web-happy or middle-aged and trying to be trendy or pass for relatively young and web-happy. only partially literate. or else a literary renegade.

Caps in the usual places: Dully conventional, doubtless conservative in outlook and sexually inhibited. The effusions of such a poster may be safely ignored.

No caps after colons: poster owns copy of the Chicago Manual of Style and towel-dries between the toes after showering.

Initial Caps on every Noun in the Sentence: Teutonic Ancestry.

Initial caps Imposed on every verb Written by poster: excitable, probably religious person who Thinks the world is Going to hell in a handbasket.

Initial caps dropped from proper nouns like nygdan and astyanax: resource rich, time poor poster.

ALL CAPS: THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING!!

Yes, I know this is ineffably off-topic, but some things are just too mission-critical to ignore.

Astyanax:

I use capitalization properly, and I am neither conventional, conservative or sexually inhibited. I must be the exception that makes your rule, hmm?

And you forgot one: LeEt SpEAker cYbErPuNk dUdE.

And back to the topic of the thread, this is definately intriguing enough to look into more. I have to admit that I'm fairly ignorant on the current political situation in the eastern block nations. Heck, I can't even keep up with all the new names.







[edit on 6-6-2006 by Jadette]

Good Post Maloy.

I didn't mean to imply that the current problem is due to the past, only that Stalin's forced famine probably impacted many, many families in the Ukraine and that would reflect on their feelings toward Russia.

Will Ukraine always be within Russia's orbit? I know there is history good and bad between the two nations and strong ties between Russia and Ukraine. Can't Ukraine steer a course in the middle between Russia and the West while maintaining indepencence from both? To me it would seem to bring the biggest benefit economic and otherwise, to Ukraine. Play both sides for Ukraine's benefit, shouldn't be too hard to do.

Would there be this much of an uproar if Russia were the one's instead of the U.S. doing the military exercises under the same exact set of situations?