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Army Manual to Skip Geneva Detainee Rule

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posted on Jun, 5 2006 @ 08:07 AM
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Army Manual to Skip Geneva Detainee Rule

The Pentagon has decided to omit from new detainee policies a key tenet of the Geneva Convention that explicitly bans "humiliating and degrading treatment," according to knowledgeable military officials, a step that would mark a further, potentially permanent, shift away from strict adherence to international human rights standards.

The decision could culminate a lengthy debate within the Defense Department but will not become final until the Pentagon makes new guidelines public, a step that has been delayed. However, the State Department fiercely opposes the military's decision to exclude Geneva Convention protections and has been pushing for the Pentagon and White House to reconsider, the Defense Department officials acknowledged.

For more than a year, the Pentagon has been redrawing its policies on detainees, and intends to issue a new Army Field Manual on interrogation, which, along with accompanying directives, represents core instructions to U.S. soldiers worldwide.

More...



Well, it would appear that we have learned NOTHING over the past past three years...
You would think that after Abu Gharib, Haditha and the other over-the-top events, we might have found a clue...

Idiots... :shk:




posted on Jun, 5 2006 @ 08:39 AM
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Geneva?

Isn't that a French Restaurant on the corner of 52nd and Broadway?



No, seriously; this administration is known for this actions, of erasing borders between right and wrong. They have been doing that for years now. Actually I am not at all surprised.

Screw Geneva!

I ain't going to that dump to eat again!




posted on Jun, 5 2006 @ 10:22 PM
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Originally posted by Souljah
I ain't going to that dump to eat again!


Yeah, I hear the service is so awful...



posted on Jun, 5 2006 @ 11:21 PM
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Its outrageous.

If Sept11 HADNT of happened, would such laws of been ABLE to so easily been pushed aside?

Why can clinton be DRAGGED before a hearing regarding his AFFAIR with an employee, yet bush can continuously spit at every law he wants to in the name of his phony idea's....

Keep POW camps that are considered ILLEGIAL from the World watchdog,
block details of investigations as it pleases, raid congressmans houses..

this is ABSURD.

what is it going to take for the USA to wake up and see where the leader is taking them.

who needs military rule, or a police state when the man in charge already has the power to say what goes and when.



posted on Jun, 6 2006 @ 07:30 AM
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Why should the US abide by the Geveva convention when the enemy dosen't. The answer usually because we don't want to lower ourselves to their level. Maybe it's time to do it.



posted on Jun, 6 2006 @ 08:04 AM
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Originally posted by steve99
Why should the US abide by the Geveva convention when the enemy dosen't. The answer usually because we don't want to lower ourselves to their level. Maybe it's time to do it.

Yea Sure.

I kind of agree with you - since nobody EVER follow any Conventions, Laws or Rules, why LIE to the world then! Just erase those parts from Manuals and just do it! Well that would sure be refreshing.

Lets just take a potential scenario, that the Cops in your hometown would start doing the same and ERASE certain parts from Their manuals. And lets say a crazy guy shoots 5 people dead and wounds 12. All they know is, that he is from Your neighbourhood - nothing more. So they go to HIS LEVEL, go to Your neighbourhoos, enter the first house, shoot 2 people dead and injure 4. Then they go to the second house shoot 3 people in the head, and leave several wounded.

Would you like that?



posted on Jun, 6 2006 @ 03:17 PM
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Yeah, ok, the police on a blood thirsty rampage is a chilling thought, but when the soldiers of this country (UK) are being put in front of CIVILIAN courts, tried by CIVILIANs and have CIVILIAN charges pressed against them, for MILITARY 'offences' (these offences include shooting at armed and visible enemies, after having given 3 clear warnings in english and arabic, warning shot,s all by the book etc etc), one begins to think that perhaps the way in which the Geneva Convention is strictly adhered to is a little bit officous. The Geneva Convention applies only to regular soldiers of a country's army. it does not apply to militia, mercenaries etc etc.

The insurgents of Iraq and Afhganistan are not regular troops, they are irregulars, militia, however you will put it, the Geneva Convention does not cover them. If any were captured, it would be prefectly legal by the Geneva Convention to line them up against a wall and shoot them. But, some whacko politician in London has extended the Geneva Convention, unofficially to cover such insurgents, and then decided that if they are shot, then the 'guilty' soldier should be charged with murder, under civilian law, which is wrong, because the soldier was clearly acting in self defence, in a military situation.

One of my mentors in life believes that if a group of insurgents were to come towards the British troops, shouting 'we want to kill you', bearing arms upon which is daubed 'For use on the British Army', and everyting is recorded and noted down, and a few insurgents were killed by the troops in self defence, then the soldiers would still get charged with murder.

While the Geneva Convention is a good thing, it was designed for use on European battlefields, where enemies are visible and uniformed, not for a dusty street in Basra where anyone from a 10 year old girl to a 70 year old man can be an enemy, and you wont know if they are until it is too late.



posted on Jun, 6 2006 @ 07:42 PM
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isnt that what makes us different?

the west became the powerful player on this planet because they dealt with issues in the humane way, in a way society and people would accept .
we dealt out fair and just penalties to those who deserved it.

When we start disobeying the rules set out for a peaceful conclusion to conflicts, whats the point in stopping terrorism? when we become terrorists aswell.



posted on Jun, 6 2006 @ 07:58 PM
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Duckiciao,
That is the same kind of logic that the Nazis used in WWII against the Soviets. They didn't sign so they don't have any rights to it's protection.
As I've said in an other thread on this subject, if we lower ourselves like this then we give them justification for calling us evil. If you do evil you are evil, for you are what you do.
If any one is interested this topic can also be found here:
www.abovetopsecret.com...'



posted on Jun, 7 2006 @ 12:19 AM
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Originally posted by Souljah

Originally posted by steve99
Why should the US abide by the Geveva convention when the enemy dosen't. The answer usually because we don't want to lower ourselves to their level. Maybe it's time to do it.

Yea Sure.

I kind of agree with you - since nobody EVER follow any Conventions, Laws or Rules, why LIE to the world then! Just erase those parts from Manuals and just do it! Well that would sure be refreshing.

Lets just take a potential scenario, that the Cops in your hometown would start doing the same and ERASE certain parts from Their manuals. And lets say a crazy guy shoots 5 people dead and wounds 12. All they know is, that he is from Your neighbourhood - nothing more. So they go to HIS LEVEL, go to Your neighbourhoos, enter the first house, shoot 2 people dead and injure 4. Then they go to the second house shoot 3 people in the head, and leave several wounded.

Would you like that?


so souljah, are you saying that the insurgents and other terrorist organizations follow the geneva convention?

thats the real problem isnt it?

Everyone, including you, wants to give POW status to those terrorists and others detained in gitmo...yet they do not wear uniforms or follow any rules of engagement. Therefore they are classified as "illegal combatants" in other words...they are criminals, war criminals if you will, and will not be given any of the protections afforded under the geneva convention.

IF they start wearing uniforms....

STOP attacking civilians....

then I would agree that they are entitled to geneva convention protections.

now I dont think the US should be deleting parts of the geneva convention but rather amending it to classify terrorists as war criminals and not POWs.



[edit on 7-6-2006 by XphilesPhan]



posted on Jun, 7 2006 @ 02:30 AM
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Hello?!?

Aren't the US troops supposed to be the "GOOD" Guys in this War?

Fighting for Freedom, Democracy, Peace and Justice for All?

So, how are they supposed to be the "Good" guys, if they do not follow the "Good" Book?

Do you see ordinary Criminals running around in their "Criminal Uniforms" when Cops chase them down?

Nope - you see them in Civilian Clothing, right?

Cops wear Uniforms - but then again, Cops usually follow a certain MANUAL too.

They can not just start shooting at everything that mooves when their buddy gets shot dead - like US Marines like to do.

See, different Laws are in place when US Army goes on Tour.

I wonder if the SAME Laws would also be in place if US Army was playin' Home.



posted on Jun, 8 2006 @ 09:28 AM
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Al Qaeda has a training manual too.

www.pbs.org... ml

No mention of the Geneva Convention in it.

In fact it talks about you should lie in court if caught.

And how to beat hostages. etc.
Quote "In this tradition, we find permission to interrogate the hostage for the purpose of obtaining information. It is permitted to strike the nonbeliever who has no covenant until he reveals the news, information, and secrets of his people."

These are the good guys in some peoples eyes?



This is the previous version on the USA manual. The FM 25-100 US Army manual is here.

www.globalsecurity.org... /toc.htm


I don't know what the big deal is, since the USA seems to be adopting watered down rules of Al Qadea since some feel they are the good guys, and th USA should strive to be like them.


[edit on 8-6-2006 by sbob]



posted on Jun, 8 2006 @ 02:55 PM
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This is surreal!!!
People are you really advocating the use of torture???
This is a synopsis of what will happen if we start watering down our rules to fight them on their level.
We capture a terrorist and humiliate him, and as before this causes outrage by the populace that we are trying to “help”, and some join the fight against us.
So now that we have even more people fighting against us we have to step it up a little, hey if it's okay to dehumanize why not try to beat a little sense into them. You know go with the attitude that if you try to hurt me or my buddies then I am going to hurt you, and hurt you in till you beg for death.
Well it gets out that we have been using torture and this causes more hatred, and more volunteers to join up to fight us. And a dramatic rise in attacks against us.
With the rise of violence instead of taking prisoners our troops just shoot people that they think are going to present a possible danger to them selves, in response they step up the attacks on our troops, inflicting ever greater KIA on our military and maybe our citizens at home, hey why not we are supporting the troops abrade committing hence acts against their people they think lets hit them in their home.
Now with more attacks in the US and no rules (remember you want to throw out the rules) we think to our selves they have gone to far, no matter what we do they will keep attacking us, so what can we do to stop them? Kill them all.
Hey with out rules it's all fair. Including genocide.
Personally I don't want to ride this slippery slope.
Peace
Mr Mx



posted on Jun, 8 2006 @ 03:58 PM
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I was joking dude. Did you see the smiley face for the last part of the post.




posted on Jun, 8 2006 @ 04:02 PM
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That was not directed at you but at all the people that would advocate disregarding the rules, so we can fight fire with fire, and other such nonsense.



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