These people don't want peace.

I think that when they say that it was an illegal invasion due to the fact that the bases of it was WMDs. WMDs in Iraq were being looked at by a UN mandate. The US was not satisfied by the UN investigation and inspectors so launched an attack, to deal with it their way.
Being a war under the terms of a UN mandate with out UN blessing, IMHO, is the reason for calling it an illegal invasion. Could be wrong though.

I didn't join to say anybody is nuts. I wanted to join a group of level headed people who wanted to find the truth about things. This thread is pretty much divided amoung the ones who are blind to the hate from the Muslims and have hate for the US and those who see the world has a lot of crazy religous fanatics.

Myself, I just want to be left out of the religous hate regardless of where it comes from.

I do see more from Islam, however.

Peace is what you get after you've crushed all of your enemies, taken their women and children, and salted their land into sterility.

And mohhamed said:

Originally posted by Enkidu
Peace is what you get after you've crushed all of your enemies, taken their women and children, and salted their land into sterility.

So is this what you are saying that we should think, or the muslims?

Originally posted by Formula1
I do see more from Islam, however.

So - how many Wars did Islam start in the past 50 years?

In any case, it is an artificial struggle created by the same people, who just LOVE to see this World divided into little Religious groups that hate each other and spit on each other. That is their Poli-Tricks. This has been decided around 100 years ago, when the Brits first found Oil in Iran - and from then on, things just went F.U.B.A.R. in the Middle East. Why? Because the Angry Muslims want to blow themselves up for Allah? Divide and Rule Politricks are in Effect in this region for along, LONG time, and they are well designed to keep the people of Middle East - Muslims - divided and ruled, their natural resources are in Western hands, and eveybody who wants to Nationalize their Oil is quickly and effciently removed, invaded and replaced by a Pro-West, Pro-Business goverment.

And todays War on Terror is not any different - just more Evolved:

Welcome to the World of Synthetic Terror

'We are now living in what has been called the Age of Synthetic Terror. In contrast to the corporate media line, "terrorism" is the brainchild and product of western intelligence agencies. Its purpose is to foment domestic anger at Muslims in order to justify a program of:

• invasion of sovereign nations
  
• seizure of their oil resources
  
• mass murder designed to look like sectarian violence
  
• establishing permanent military bases and
  
• the installation of puppet governments in the countries so affected.

It follows that the mass murder of 9/11, blamed on Arab/Muslim patsies, was but the opening scene of a drama that would have many acts, with hundreds of thousands of murders to follow.'

And that's how the Cookie Crumbles...

Originally posted by smokenmirrors

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

iraq, the people are attacking to fight a military presence (illegal, legal, whatever, it's a military presence), not to cause terror, so remove that from the terror count

C'mon, you mean to tell me these people you speak of who are fighting a military presence are doing so by killing dozens of innocent Iraqi's DAILY?

Au contraire, what is seen in Iraq are terrorists who are in a desperate situation, losing their hope of establishing Iraq as a terrorist state, killing and maiming all they can, in an attempt to get the USA to depart.......hasn't worked yet has it?

let's start with "dozens" of innocent iraqis that have been killed daily by "terrorists"
maybe you're getting your news from somewhere that is outright wrong, or you're pulling numbers out of the air, because the average number or civilians that die in iraq due to BOTH USA and insurgent violence is from between 5 and 7, depending on your sources.

secondly, when civilians die when a hummer gets blown up (which is how most roadside bombs kill civilians), it's purely military.

third, the concept of a terrorist organization trying to form a terrorist state is laughable, because the majority of iraqi insurgents are IRAQIs (unless you show me concrete evidence to the contrary, don't make it seem like that's a lie), so it's an insurgency fighting a military presence.

38,000+ civilians have died in iraq, most were killed by american soldiers.

our so called "smart" bombs only hit within the range of a tennis court, so they almost always kill civilians.

there is no evidence that actual terrorists make up a signinificant percentage of the insurgency

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by smokenmirrors

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

iraq, the people are attacking to fight a military presence (illegal, legal, whatever, it's a military presence), not to cause terror, so remove that from the terror count

C'mon, you mean to tell me these people you speak of who are fighting a military presence are doing so by killing dozens of innocent Iraqi's DAILY?

Au contraire, what is seen in Iraq are terrorists who are in a desperate situation, losing their hope of establishing Iraq as a terrorist state, killing and maiming all they can, in an attempt to get the USA to depart.......hasn't worked yet has it?

let's start with "dozens" of innocent iraqis that have been killed daily by "terrorists"
maybe you're getting your news from somewhere that is outright wrong, or you're pulling numbers out of the air, because the average number or civilians that die in iraq due to BOTH USA and insurgent violence is from between 5 and 7, depending on your sources.

secondly, when civilians die when a hummer gets blown up (which is how most roadside bombs kill civilians), it's purely military.

third, the concept of a terrorist organization trying to form a terrorist state is laughable, because the majority of iraqi insurgents are IRAQIs (unless you show me concrete evidence to the contrary, don't make it seem like that's a lie), so it's an insurgency fighting a military presence.

38,000+ civilians have died in iraq, most were killed by american soldiers.

our so called "smart" bombs only hit within the range of a tennis court, so they almost always kill civilians.

there is no evidence that actual terrorists make up a signinificant percentage of the insurgency

I am afraid I cannot give you concrete evidence that they are not majority Iraqis, but having talked to friends that have come back from Iraq, as well as superiors, it seems that a lot of the people they have been fighting come from a certain other large country to the north and other 'friendly' to the USA and UK country to the south
How do you explain the terror attacks in Iraq where the polling stations were targetted, or when those trying to join the police to maintain some semblance of Law and Order are blown up? The terrorists are attacking both occupation troops and their own people, to use your words back at you:
(unless you show me concrete evidence to the contrary, don't make it seem like that's a lie)
news.bbc.co.uk...
"Baquba lies in a mixed Sunni Arab and Shia province where attacks against civilians have been common. "
Note the 50 people kidnapped

Originally posted by Darkmind

Originally posted by notbuynit
[How many follow Robertson?? And how many have killed anyone on his behalf? Did I miss something? Did he command his followers to wear bombs and board busses? He's just an idiot the neolib uses often to force their will on the weak minded.
Why is it that with all the Christian pastors in this country the neolib media CENTERS ON HIM????

The Neolib? What are they? I brought up Robertson because he is the kind of ridiculous bigot who causes nothing but negative publicity for christianity. I remember when he once took a shot at the Republican nomination because apparently god wanted him to. The man utters repellent statements about everything under the sun - like 9/11 being god punishing America for so-called sin, and Katrina being god punished NO for more so-called sin... it makes me feel ill.
And by the way, I'm an atheist.

It's over your head and no getting over your ignorance. Think about it. Robertson says something stupid. Neolibs run with it, you said so yourself. Ossama or any other muslim hater says something and it's given respect by the neolibs in the media. Again, with all the pastors and priests in this nation and Europe and even the entire world, why is it every time this bufffon says something, it's front page news? Has anyone ever strapped on a bomb and destroyed innocent people because he called for it? Robertson is a scammer and a tool for neolibs nothing else. 99% of the faith realize that.

Jesus was a passifist unlike Mohamed. It's far easier for them to get away with blowing up a school bus than a Christian extremist in the press for political reasons. What gets more press? Musslim blows up school bus? Christrian, Jew or Bhuddist blows up school bus?

And to answer your question on neolibs. They aren't liberals. Libs add ballance to conservativism. I have no problem with someone trying to make things better for eveyone even if I disagree.

Neolibs want you to believe all the worlds problems originate with capitalism and the US. They own most of the media. They know control of the masses relies on destroying the American indepentant attitude. They will blame anything that happens in the world on the US in order to hopefully destroy the US. They have learned from mistakes in the past. You have to warp and own the American mind (which is made up of the worlds immigrants) to push their agenda so they have owned the media and the schools.

If I'm so wrong, then why since the fall of the soviet Union is the US so evil? Why are so many news reports in Europe and the world biased against the US and an indepentant mind can see it? It's consolidated against the US. Open your freak'n eyes.

I'm not saying US history is perfect by the way, far from it. Damn, the UK oppressed half the planet. Do I care? No, it's history. I'm over it.

Chicoms oppress a quarter of the planet.

Why is the media so angry at those that dare to question their integrity?

It's because they know in order to take over the world, they can't do it with a war. The US with all it's Italians, Mexicans, Russians, Irish, English, Arab and well, all the worlds rejects will oppose them.

Why is it such a big deal for Us oil companies to drill for oil off OUR coasts and yet Fidel can sell to the highest bidder without a peep from "enviromentalists" and no restrictions that US oilers are held to? Oil spill, so what? Yea, the enviros have integrity. Principals.

Why is it that the US is lambasted for not signing the kyoto treaty but yet the chicoms are exempt? Why is a 1/4 of the worlds population, one country and India, exempt? One quarter. A country that has no real enviromental restrictians and will consume more oil than the rest of the entire world in 10 years?

That's not enviromentalism, that's politics unless you are a neolib.

Now do you understand neolib? It's up there with neocom. Don't question anything.