Prevailing Left blowing wind on ATS (Op/Ed)

Actually Semperfortis at your tax level you pay about 52% of every dollar you earn as tax in one form or another.

The idea of taxing corporations more is ludicrous. Corporations are owned by stockholders (people just like you & me) and each & every one of them pays taxes on their earnings from the corporation all the while they own stock in that corporation. When and if they sell their stock they have to pay even more taxes. Why should the corporation be taxed at all? Think about it, thats double taxation.

[edit on 10-6-2006 by Astronomer70]

I'm in a high tax bracket and I understand that, at least that is what my accountant keeps telling me as he goes on vacation to barbados each year. HAHAHAHA

Heck.. I feel bad.. IT,S TAX FREE OVER HERE

Been there, done that. Now it's my doctors who get most of my money.

Where is here AGENT_T, I might want to move there.

[edit on 10-6-2006 by Astronomer70]

Originally posted by Astronomer70 Actually Semperfortis at your tax level you pay about 52% of every dollar you earn as tax in one form or another. The idea of taxing corporations more is ludicrous. Corporations are owned by stockholders (people just like you & me) and each & every one of them pays taxes on their earnings from the corporation all the while they own stock in that corporation. When and if they sell their stock they have to pay even more taxes. Why should the corporation be taxed at all? Think about it, thats double taxation. [edit on 10-6-2006 by Astronomer70]

That's not what's going on with Corporatism. The latest gambit is to create an associated "non-profit" so they can dump their profits into political largesse.
Corporatism is Fascism, as Mussolini said. And stockholders are oblivious; all they care about is the "bottom-line," not ethics or long-term effects. Amoral.

Hang on. portland.indymedia.org...

The corporatist/synargist movement is behind a great deal of harm that we are experiencing. Why do you rationalize for them?

What Mussolini actually said was that facisim was the perfect marriage between corporation and state, and if anyone should know it was him.

BTW Semper, I read your blog, and it was compassionate, humane, funny and very well written. I am impressed. Thank you for sharing.

I haven't read through this entire thread. I tried. But there are a couple of points I want to make.

1. Was it Mauddib who pointed out that there were left-leaning OP/EDs in ATSNN lately? Well, he's right. Even though at first I thought this story should be sent to PTS, I agree with the staff's decision to leave it on ATSNN. (They're so smart!)

Originally posted by semperfortis
There may be any number of Conservative Members out there, but they either remain silent or become silent after being bombarded by the left's defamation of their core beliefs and character.

2. What the "Conservative Members" choose to do is no fault or responsibility of ATS. How can you fault ATS for being "left-leaning" because the political right either doesn't speak up or cannot take the heat they so regularly dish out?

Conservatives defame with the best of them. But if they 'leave because ATS is too liberal' or sit in the corner quietly pouting because they can't handle people disagreeing with them, that's no one's fault but their own, certainly not the discussion board's fault.

In my experience, it's common for people who are strongly attached to the more conservative end of the political spectrum to 'leave' because ATS is getting too left-leaning. Well, what does that leave? The left!

So IF the membership on this board is overwhelmingly liberal, it's only because the conservative members don't like or can't handle being around people with whom they disagree. Don't blame the liberal members or ATS. Blame the conservative members who jumped ship and went somewhere where they're more comfortable - surrounded by people with like mind.

Thank you Grover, that was kind of you to say.

BH,

No one is "Blaming" ATS, or anyone else for that matter. The subject was put out there for discussion is all and quite a few of us have found some common ground.

Yet I feel that this and other threads like it, have brought to the forefront some of the personal attacking being done on here. Some subtle, some not so. There seems to be a common theme of ridiculing another persons political convictions when they differ from our own.

There is no one person on here that is "Right." We would all like to think we are, hence convictions, but in reality the combination of upbringing and social-economic factors have all worked to form our individual beliefs in the political system. I have met, on here, some extremely insightful and intelligent persons that have given me cause to "think" about and even in ways reconsider where my loyalties are placed. That is because I listened and refused to be intimidated by some of the more radically motivated, attack oriented posts. I see some others just stop posting, when they could have still contributed, with value, to the conversation, yet were either just tired of it or intimidated.

I enjoy a good lively debate and this is the most fantastic forum I have ever found to engage in that debate. I also realize that there will always be some that only wish to disrupt. I'm just hoping more and more come out of the closet and engage us on here.

Semper

Thank you, semper for that explanation.

I'd also like to point out that I'm regularly called a liberal or a Democrat or Anti-American by the conservative membership and I'm none of those. But I have yet to be termed a conservative or Republican by the liberal membership. Even though my views on gun control and illegal immigration (and other issues) are radically what's termed to be 'conservative', no one has ever accused me of being a Bush supporter or neo-con because of my conservative views.

No, even though my opinions range the entire political spectrum, it has only EVER been the conservatives who put me into the 'other corner', by insisting that I'm a liberal or Democrat or Anti-American.

Just a curious observation.

OK, BH
Here goes

Your a conservative.

Running the risk of being accused again of very broad generalizations, I will say it has been my experince that as a rule conservatives tend to see things in a good/bad, black/white duality while those of us of the liberal persuaion tend to see things in shades of gray, nuiance as it were. The very thing the bush administration has famously claimed that they do not do. Two very simple examples of this are:
(1) welfare: it is very easy to rail against those on welfare, and yes there are abuses, but I tell ya from having been there, for every abuse there are far more who are profoundly grateful for it and are more than happy to get off ot it. Of course those are the very ones you never hear about (for political reasons) and really should be. One never knows the curve balls life will throw you. Semper you say you are currently set for life as it were but what if a catstrophic illness or event (like katrina or the stock market crashed like in 29) wiped out every savings you had leaving you homeless and you turned to the state and they said tough poop mate. How would you feel? We are supposed to be a Christian nation, at least that is the reteroic, but what the funnymentalists (yes I know how its spelt) tend to forget, is at the heart and soul of Christ's teachings is a deep and profound compassion, and without compassion we are no better than our prejudices...the old saying says it best... If not for the grace of God, there goes I.
(2) Taxes: The core reason I have no problem paying taxes is that I understand that they are the price we pay for living where we do. The simple truth of the fact is that for the amount of taxes we pay, we are getting cheated. Most of the industrial world pays far more in taxes than we do, but they also get far more for it. Some call it the nanny state, but its not really like that. A certian accecptable standard has been set below which it is not considered decent for a person to fall. What it does is create a more stable society, and if you want to live better than the standard, go for itm no one holds you back. It is cheap and easy to squeal (politically) about taxes, but it is taxes that pay for roads (here in Va. we have cut taxes to the bone for so long, our roads are a mess and will cost far more to fix them than it would have ever cost to keep them up to begin with, and still the republican controlled legisgature is dragging its feet and passing the buck further down the line, and people fall for this) sewers, schools, water and so many other things that keep this country going, including our way too massive and expensive (in my opinion) military. People fall for the tax wail but when these things start falling apart, start screaming bloody murder failing to connect the dots. Life is never simple and issure are very rarely black and white, and to look at things that way is fine for the individual, but give me a pragamitist in office anyday over an ideologue.

An interesting comment grover, but I'll bet Muaddib would say you have the liberal & conservative labels reversed. Furthermore, I'm not so sure he would be wrong in that assessment. Isn't it curious how we tend to see others as opposed to ourselves.

I've tried to point out previously (in both this and other threads) that it isn't the perception of one being a liberal or conservative (even though those two terms have vastly different meanings to different people) that causes some people to see things in blacks & whites with very few shades of grey. In my personal opinion, that seems to be more of an age related thing than anything else.

[edit on 11-6-2006 by Astronomer70]

well most of the conservatives I am exposed to here in southwest virginia are of the funnymentalist sort and they most certianly do see things in a black white good evil duality. But even that it is the "liberal" attempts to deal with the nuiances of the shades of gray that seem to tic so many conservatives off.

Your last post Grover says a heck of a lot about you. I can certainly see how you would become a liberal surrounded by a bunch of fundamentalist bible thumpers. I can also understand why you thing the black/white comment applies to more conservatives than it does liberals. I would probably have become a liberal (if that really is the correct term) myself if immersed in that environment.

Jerry Falwell immediately springs to mind when I think about much of rural Virginia.

[edit on 11-6-2006 by Astronomer70]

You would be suprised how many uneducated actually like republicans. Im not saying republicans are uneducated, but I noticed when I talk to every day people, alot of them are republican type, but dont actually understand any of the issues. You can even get a good 1/4 that dont even know anything about the issue. They tend to get caught up in media hype and never really read about anything.

As we know republicans are all for the war on terror. Off this conspiracy board in everyday life you dont here much about 9/11 being questioned and such. A great deal of average people believe strongly in the general story, and though they havent done an ounce of reading into 9/11, conspiracy OR official, they believe it 100% and are all for bombing the hell out of the entire mid east. This was all the media doing though.

In the end they were the ones telling the general public what was what, their word for the average american is fact...what a scary world we live in.

I think that if you will study the links I am including, you will find that you are mistaken completely.

A large overwhelming percentage of people that did not complete highschool and are at the poverty level, are staunch democrats.
As the education level goes up, the party affiliation evens out, until republicans begin taking the lead at "some college and college grads."

It begins to even out at Higher education levels and the democrats again take the lead in post graduate.

people-press.org...

dabacon.org...

Semper

Yes well it also has to do with parents as well. You tend to be effected by what your parents believe. Kids growing up in poor systems, with poor parents, tend to have their beliefs to an extent. But I wouldn't say its completely true. My mom completed highschool with all D's works 3 jobs still, and shes a definate republican. Its mainly because she doesnt know about the issues, and she believes whatever she hears on the news. The news isnt fact, but people take it that way. Why do you think bush is hated now, news is the correct answer. Whatever the media says, tends to be taken as fact, even the hollywood tabloids people believe.

Also Im sorry I meant to refer to poor whites. Minorities dont vote republican usually and they are more populated in city areas. When it comes to poor whites you will be suprised to see them pro republican. I think its because of the conservative views and such. But mostly media portrayal.

Astronomer, my family were brethern, which are an offshoot of the menoites which are an offshoot of the amish, not baptists. They were profoundly conservative people BUT what passes for conservative today would be alien to them and they would not have liked it one bit or agreed with it at all. They typlified what would be called in New England where I lived for 20 years, fiscally conservative and socially liberal. i.e. lets take care of our own but lets watch our pennies while we do it. They were the type who profoundly believed in the seperation of church and state because they did not want the state meddling in their church and as for the church meddling in the state would have been considered absurd, after all you render unto ceasar what is ceasars. There was a true compassion that comes from being poor and struggling, and their conservatism came from a lets take things slow and see attitude not from grudging the state their taxes or wanting to impose their worldview upon everybody else. If they were cautious it was learned from hard knocks. I respected them a great deal and the roots of my liberalism comes from there and from an instinctive revulsion to the self righteousness of the southern baptists and pentacostals. The Brethern church has changed alot since then and in some ways are not much different from the baptists anymore, I am a Baha'i' now and what relatives are around have become parodies of what it meant to be a Christian, i.e. humble and compassionate, when we were growing up.

P.S. Jerry Foulwell and Pat Robertson and their ilk are below contempt and are the very type of arrogant self-righteous hypocrite Jesus condemned.