Prevailing Left blowing wind on ATS (Op/Ed)

Originally posted by grover
I am no where near the top 10% of anything but I pay my fair share of taxes and have absolutely no problem with it. What bugs the crap out of me isn't someone on welfare or even a welfare cheat, it is someone who makes 10, 20 or 400 times more than I do weasling their way out of paying taxes at all.

They do not weasel their way out of paying. That my friend is a Liberal myth propagated by what ever their goals are.
I have not gotten a cent back from the IRS in over 6 years and my tax base is now at 32%. 32% of my money goes to the IRS each and every month. Look at the tax forms actually required to be posted by politicians and you will see that they pay a lot in taxes. Do not just go off of the internet, cnn or other Liberal talking bases, get the form yourself and you will see the truth.
The more you make the more you pay.
And what is a fair share? OK, So your money comes out and at the end of the year you get a nice little check from the IRS. Meanwhile I pay 32% every month and at the end of the year I pay 3, 4 even 7 thousand dollars TO them. Go figure. Is that my share? I do not come from money, I made it on my own with NO help from the government. Why are they entitled to 32 percent of MY money?
Here is another good kicker. I worked 20 years in another state, took the retirement and came here to work on another career. This state taxes my RETIREMENT!!! That is correct, when does my fair share equal ENOUGH??

Grover,
those quotes where meant in answer to the other poster jumahn

Canada didnt play a real part in WW2 did they. They also weren't a real power. All the powers at the time got destroyed except the US. britian germany, russia, all down the toliet.

China will consume a great deal of resources and so will india, this alone will attract investors looking to make money. More consumers usually means you can strike it big. china is industrializing. They will keep on growing. I wouldnt under estimate the power of numbers, something china and india have alot of.

But anyway its the otherway around, they are supporting us. They make all our products they buy a good deal of things from us. Without them, we couldnt be where we are. Our economy is alot more dependent on them then they are on us. Business is business. We may have introduced it over there, but it is in no way an american export. Once a business is there, it will stay regardless of our relation to china. More consumers, stable vision of growth, no laws on labour, its obvious where a business wants to be. Most of your devices are from china, and theres a reason for that.

thank you grim, that is my point exactly.

We are now a technological and economic power. As long as they keep growing they will keep needing us and it is showing no signs of letting up in the next few lifetimes.

Originally posted by semperfortis
thank you grim, that is my point exactly.

We are now a technological and economic power. As long as they keep growing they will keep needing us and it is showing no signs of letting up in the next few lifetimes.

no you missed the point. They are grabbing all our businesses and businesses are expanding because of it. China is growing because of it. Just because the business is part of our economy and the business grows, doesnt mean our country is doing any better. global businesses just dictate how well a business is doing. Just because microsoft hits big jumps in the market does not mean the american economy will be any better, or the dollar anymore stable. They don't need US, they need the businesses we are sending over there. As we keep doing that the playing field becomes more and more unleveled in their favor. Its like this:
Our resources for them are our businesses. Once we trade them those, what do we have left. They have the consumers, all they need are the materials to make it, and the US is not known for having home made materials to sustain a market. We arent major oil producers, so they dont need us for that, if anything they are competing with us for it.

they aren't trading with us for products, they are trading us for our businesses and methods of making money. They are going to use the exact steps we did to become bigger then us, because their size is bigger. Thats what they are really doing.

I got your point, I just see it happening differently.

I have great faith in the American Spirit. That is why I support self reliance as strongly as I do. Without it we are just ... well France ... Sorry, couldn't resist.

Originally posted by semperfortis

Originally posted by JamuhnThe whole point of having a government is that people survive better in groups and with depending on each other. It was only self-reliance in the sense of a self-reliant group that helped early Europeans colonize America.

Ok, then that would be an opinion. I have never heard that definition of Government before and can find nothing on that particular analogy on the net.

Lol, no, it's not just my opinion. I'm not really sure where you've been looking, but it's pretty much one of the major reasons for government, especially a democracy...

One of the most influential theories of government in the past two hundred years has been the social contract, on which modern democracy and most forms of socialism are founded. The social contract theory holds that governments are created by the people in order to provide for collective needs (such as safety from crime, poverty, illiteracy) that cannot be properly satisfied using purely individual means.

en.wikipedia.org...

If you would have read my posts, you would have read where I specifically stated that certain social programs are necessary.

So that would make you a semi-"liberal".

What source did you find that said that the Bush administration has increased the size of government more than any other? I can not find that either.

I'm sorry, I don't want to put you down, but your lack or inability to do research does not mean it's my opinion. It means you don't know how to find it.

The party of Newt Gingrich's anti-government revolution [Republican] was now backing vastly increased military spending, despite growing fiscal deficits, and the biggest expansion of the federal bureaucracy since World War II with the creation of a new Department of Homeland Security.

news.bbc.co.uk...

That didn't even count the creation of the Intelligence Czar position and other offices and security positions Bush's administration and party has helped push through.

$20,000 per Household: The Highest Level of Federal Spending Since World War II

www.heritage.org...

Also what does self reliance have to do with sexual orientation?

If people should determine for themselves the course of their economic well-being, than they should be allowed to do so with their personal well-being as well.

[edit on 10-6-2006 by Jamuhn]

And I am sorry, but this thread was started by me and you posting your own threads to substantiate unsupported statements is well ... ridiculous at best.

Your opinion is valued on here, but personal attacks are not. Please refine your comments to your opinion as this is an OP/ED and my ability to do or not do research is of no concern to you as you are a poster on this thread authored by me.

As clearly stated by your own quotes, where ever you may have gotten them, clearly states the "Theory" of government. Not in anyway representing itself as factual, as you seem to be.

I perceive opinions as being the only true form of converse on this forum; as anything that can be found on the "net", another equally opposite article can be found and posted as well. This results in a silly and childish back and forth posting that neither benefits nor contributes to the original ideas.

If you have an opinion and not just an insult to the poster, please post it, but remember it is only an opinion and that does not make it correct. Others have opinions as well and they are equally as valuable.

Constant irrelevant bickering will only get you ignored on here. We are looking for intelligent discourse, not childish bickering.

and there are conservative myths as well such as the welfare queen. Sure there are those who abuse the system but the benefits of having such a system far far outweigh the negatives...besides the amount spent of the social services are but a pitence compared to what we give away to already fat corporations, or spend on many of the weapons that we will never use such as that heliocopter that the marine corp doesn't even want, and doesn't even work to boot. Damn 9/11 wasn't even a week old and airlines were lining up for a bailout. If they couldn't survive 3 days without flying something is seriously wrong, airlines didn't have these problems when they were regulated and considering all the money spent in propping them up it would probably be cheaper to regulate them again.

I would appear from posting on numerous different political threads and conversing with numerous members, that ATS has a definitive left wing slant politically. There may be any number of Conservative Members out there, but they either remain silent or become silent after being bombarded by the left's defamation of their core beliefs and character.

Oh really?

How do you define a "left-leaning slant" when "governing by consent of the governed" has been quashed by the junta in power? Where is "consent of the people" in your analysis, I wonder.

semper I have to tell you I have known of quite a few business people who have done their damnest to weasel out of paying their fair share in taxes, and i am sure if you think about it, you do too...poor people as a rule can't afford the lawyers and tax shelter brokers to do that. What do you call a company who sets up a mailbox in guadulope for example to establish an off shre addres to avoid paying taxes is doing besides weaseling (and that is not to say anything bad about the furry animal of the same name) out of paying taxes. If it were up to me I would close every single corporate loophole, have them pay their proper share and pass on the savings to the populous. And, the conservative claim that they would take their business elsewhere, everyone wants to do business here because this is where people can afford it.

This is my first posting on this Bulletin board.

I have refrained from posting to this date, because I see so much rabid left wing sentiment on this board.

I joined up with ATS to learn about interesting and unknown things that have been observed in our world. Not how that Bush caused Katrina, Bush-Oil, Etc, Etc.

Most of these things reflect what I call "Howard Deanish" type statements.

When Clinton was in office, I thought he was morally reprehensible, and I actually USED to be a democrat until right after he got into office, he made it possible for gays in the military, and also he made it easier for abortion.

Are you concerned about the loss of life in Iraq? Don't let yourself worry too much if you are a co-signer to the belief the the murder of Millions of unborn children is a "Woman's right to Choose".

Now maybe someone has done this, but has anyone looked at the oligarchical conspiracy going on with our judicial system? They seem intent to for the most part to be intent on:
1. Eliminate God and any references to him in our culture.
2. Impose socialism on the populace.
3. Abolish or minimize the ownership of private property.
4. Promote the gay lifestyle as being normal, even overstating what percentage of the population is gay, and punishing all who do not accept that. In fact, if you disagree, you will be labeled a "hater". In other words it is psychologized.

Has anyone looked at the conspiracy that is in effect that will NOT mention the name of Jesus in any way shape or form? Even on so called family shows like seventh heaven, I have never heard his name mentioned once! What about that conspiracy? Of course, I can tell that many of the subscribers to this board do not believe in Jesus, and I would be the last person on earth to force it on them, or "make it a state sponsored religion". I also do not think it should be squelched by the state either. Many of you will recoil at this paragraph alone, and will stop reading in disgust!

Has anyone looked at the consistent behavior of the four major news networks to always shed a Republican administration in the poorest possible light? Diminish accomplishments, and to magnify problems? This is consistent, and I have been aware of it, (and it's even uglier cousin, the Print media, The Washington Post, New York Times, Los Angeles times, Et.Al) for about 25 years. What or who is controlling that? These people pick and choose what to report and how they report it. Right now the economy is great, but you won't hear that from Katy Couric or somne of the others.

It's the lefties that are out of touch with America...

And one last thing....When I grew up, our phones could be listened in at most any time, and we could listen to others also...This was called a PARTY LINE, and now are a thing of the past....I don't fear a Republican administration listening in to me near as much as I fear a democratic administration listening in to me. That is what I fear a lot more....

Originally posted by semperfortis
And I am sorry, but this thread was started by me and you posting your own threads to substantiate unsupported statements is well ... ridiculous at best.

You really are warped, aren't you? Wikipedia, Heritage Foundation, and the BBC are hardly MY threads. I didn't author them, I referenced them. Here you are again...
en.wikipedia.org...
news.bbc.co.uk...
www.heritage.org...

Your opinion is valued on here, but personal attacks are not.

You think this is a personal attack?

Originally posted by JamuhnI'm sorry, I don't want to put you down, but your lack or inability to do research does not mean it's my opinion. It means you don't know how to find it.

You really need to grown some tougher skin.

As clearly stated by your own quotes, where ever you may have gotten them, clearly states the "Theory" of government.

Translation: You didn't read the sources and you don't care to because then you'll have to respond to them.

Constant irrelevant bickering will only get you ignored on here. We are looking for intelligent discourse, not childish bickering.

Ignore me if you can't handle it. First I give my opinion, then you claim you haven't seen any sources, then when I give you sources, you don't want to read them and claim that references mean nothing. You are just trying to deflect from the fact that you are too shy (or don't know) how to respond intelligently.

[edit on 10-6-2006 by Jamuhn]

Originally posted by Lyal
This is my first posting on this Bulletin board.

welcome, enjoy your stay lol.

I have refrained from posting to this date, because I see so much rabid left wing sentiment on this board.

why post now then? it is still the same "rabid" left wing slant now as it was say 5 days ago, or 10, or 20, or since people stopped liking bush, I don't know.

I joined up with ATS to learn about interesting and unknown things that have been observed in our world. Not how that Bush caused Katrina, Bush-Oil, Etc, Etc.

agreed.

Most of these things reflect what I call "Howard Deanish" type statements.

When Clinton was in office, I thought he was morally reprehensible, and I actually USED to be a democrat until right after he got into office, he made it possible for gays in the military, and also he made it easier for abortion.

o no gays in the military...you would turn away some one willing to die for your freedom because his sex preference? Abortion is what it is. Guess what, your a republican, therefor you believe that there should be less power to the government. Im all for that, which means they can't decide whether or not abortion is right. To begin with, laws are based on morality, nor should it be. Its based on the rights that an american citizen is afforded. These laws are to protect a citizens basic liberties. So yes, murder is wrong, because you are killing a citizen of the US, protected by our laws. Unfortunately, unborn children are not american citizens until they have birth certificates and documentation. So right up to that point, they are not afforded the rights of american citizens, therefor, no law made by the US government can protect it.

Are you concerned about the loss of life in Iraq? Don't let yourself worry too much if you are a co-signer to the belief the the murder of Millions of unborn children is a "Woman's right to Choose".

not my choice, its theres. I am worried about the american citizens dying. I am not worried about the children that are not born yet, and are not american citizens. Once they are born, I want them protected with every liberty that everyone else has.

Now maybe someone has done this, but has anyone looked at the oligarchical conspiracy going on with our judicial system?

This is a conspiracy based site, I would think so.

They seem intent to for the most part to be intent on:
1. Eliminate God and any references to him in our culture.

Eliminating god from our culture is a definate positive step. I dont want any religion parading around or any forced prayer in school. If I openly dont want any part of religion, thats my choice. God should be in no way affiliated with government, other then to make sure that people aren't forced to do something they dont want to do (school prayer). You want to have god in your home, be my guest. Keep it to yourself though, because I and many others aren't interested.

2. Impose socialism on the populace.

can we get the free health care then?

3. Abolish or minimize the ownership of private property.

I hope you are prepared to explain this one.

4. Promote the gay lifestyle as being normal, even overstating what percentage of the population is gay, and punishing all who do not accept that. In fact, if you disagree, you will be labeled a "hater". In other words it is psychologized.

Guess what, you have no say in what lifestyle they should be able to live. The government doesn't either. Thats one thing about the republican view I dont get. You want less power to the government, yet you want them to have the power to restrict certain people from living how they want to live because it goes against your belief system. You dont have to like them, but you wont restrict them because your beliefs.

Your right, just because you disagree with the homosexual lifestyle doesnt make you a hater. But from your comments I can understand why you might be labeled as one. No one gets punished if they don't accept gay people. Your belief that they should be in the army just because they are gay makes you a hater, not because you don't agree with their lifestyle. Just telling you how it happens. Its not that you say "it goes against my beliefs" its that you say "they shouldnt have the same rights as other people"

Has anyone looked at the conspiracy that is in effect that will NOT mention the name of Jesus in any way shape or form? Even on so called family shows like seventh heaven, I have never heard his name mentioned once! What about that conspiracy?

um because its not a big deal, nor does family shows have to say jesus or else there must be a conspiracy. If its that big a deal, write to the directors telling them that they are part of a conspiracy to stop using the name jesus....

Of course, I can tell that many of the subscribers to this board do not believe in Jesus, and I would be the last person on earth to force it on them,

why do I not believe that...o right the whole part about gays shouldn't be treated the same thus discouraging them from being themselves and pretending to accept your religion so they wont be hated or treated poorly anymore.

or "make it a state sponsored religion".

making laws to ban certain lifestyles because it goes against your belief system IS state sponsored religion.

I also do not think it should be squelched by the state either. Many of you will recoil at this paragraph alone, and will stop reading in disgust!

no actually I will just respond to it.

Has anyone looked at the consistent behavior of the four major news networks to always shed a Republican administration in the poorest possible light?

Yea like the first year after 9/11 when Everyone and the media loved bush because we was the cowboy. Comedians talking about how badass he was and handled it like a man. In general everyone was behind bush after 9/11. then it fell apart...what do you expect, for everyone to keep following him when it doesn't make sense?

Diminish accomplishments, and to magnify problems?

magnified problems, only the BS ones that don't make a difference. Kind of like maginifying the gay marriage problem, or the Iran situation (not in truth a big problem, only to those who are paranoid).

This is consistent, and I have been aware of it, (and it's even uglier cousin, the Print media, The Washington Post, New York Times, Los Angeles times, Et.Al)

yea I know, I read some of the stuff from all these and its just BS, they don't talk about any of the real problems...here I have a little joke for you....whats the difference between the washington post and fox?....If you said anything other then "there isnt any"(or something to that extent) then your falling for the same BS that I fell for after 9/11. funny but true. (party lines for those who missed it)

What or who is controlling that?

big business making billions off of war, billions off of privatized jails, more billions on business sponsored health care (pharasuitical[sp?]). Yea thats about right. Big business, owns the government too though, o and the media....and the walmarts you get your clothes and such from...and the microsofts you get software from...well actually everything...they own everything.

These people pick and choose what to report and how they report it.

damn right, and we never get to hear the real issues. we get stuck with abortion and gay marriage...BS right? I hear ya Lyal.

Right now the economy is great, but you won't hear that from Katy Couric or somne of the others.

Yea...cant wait to see the person saying that in about 3 years. Why don't you take a deeper look at what I have been posting to semper.

It's the lefties that are out of touch with America...

nope, we all are. Me, You, Semper, Grover, etc. we all have completely lost touch with america. There probably isnt a sole out there who I could personally say otherwise about. lefties, righties, tell me what difference it makes? Your republican, so you believe less power to the government, a value I can agree with. Why don't you take a look at that, then question why your giving your unwavering support to them? Why are you handing all the power to them? isnt that...dangerous? Im a history person, constantly reading about it, and I can say we have all lost touch. What ever happen to AMERICAN beliefs. not whether gays could marry or not, or abortion...but everyone created equal... that we need checks and balances to stop the government from ever having too much power...what ever happen to THOSE beliefs. forgotten somewhere along the battle fronts of the left and right extremists who cant even remember why this country was founded.

Its a shame when you talk about defending american ideals, when you gave the republicans and democrats the freedom to hand our liberties over to big business and turn this country into a fascist nation. Mussolini couldnt have been more proud.

And one last thing....When I grew up, our phones could be listened in at most any time, and we could listen to others also...This was called a PARTY LINE, and now are a thing of the past....I don't fear a Republican administration listening in to me near as much as I fear a democratic administration listening in to me. That is what I fear a lot more....

I dont fear republicans or democrats listening in on me (because each is equally dangerous but unavoidable), but the mindset you have. "this was a PARTY LINE, and now are a thing of the past" maybe that party line was, but it seems like a different one is in full force, destroying us one day at a time.

Originally posted by grover
semper I have to tell you I have known of quite a few business people who have done their damnest to weasel out of paying their fair share in taxes, and i am sure if you think about it, you do too...poor people as a rule can't afford the lawyers and tax shelter brokers to do that. What do you call a company who sets up a mailbox in guadulope for example to establish an off shre addres to avoid paying taxes is doing besides weaseling (and that is not to say anything bad about the furry animal of the same name) out of paying taxes. If it were up to me I would close every single corporate loophole, have them pay their proper share and pass on the savings to the populous. And, the conservative claim that they would take their business elsewhere, everyone wants to do business here because this is where people can afford it.

WOW, where did lyal come from?

But Grover,
I can not argue your point there. What I can do is point out that even by avoiding what you term as their fair share, they still pay the vast majority of tax income.
The average middle to low income wage earner, pays nothing. By the time they have their 15 to 18% taken out, get their refund check and adjustment for children, they pay nothing. Now something is paying all the money the government is accused of overspending. (yes they do) That money comes from the top 10% of the wage earners and the corporations both large and small.

And I hope you don't mind if I rant my friend, but what the heck is "fair share?"
Is it my fair share because I have actually gotten off of my butt and made a success for myself to pay for those that wont get up and look for a job? Is it my fair share to pay for welfare babies? Illegals using the healthcare system? Why and how is this considered my fair share? I was not given this money, in fact I have never owned a business, or inherited one red cent. I have worked for a pay check for over 32 years and made some good decisions. Gotten up at 5am every morning, except the Marines of course, went to work and worked sometimes 12 and 14 hour days to get here. Why now is it my fair share to pay for those unwilling to do that?

I agree there absolutely has to be social programs, but why not something like the fair tax where we are taxed according to what we spend? That way we can all regulate what we pay and the government still gets their pound of flesh.

My opinion is that the social programs are out of control. Too many loop holes and too many opportunities to abuse the system. Too many "bleeding hearts" (sorry about the term) dieing to give my money to some other more deserving soul. I guess I am somewhat jaded due to the many hours in the court room. Yet you have to admit the system is out of all control.

OK. I am off my soapbox now.

Grim, your awesome!

I have an idea. It seems that You, Grover and myself all have somewhat differing views on subjects, but not so completely as to cause us the "foaming" at the mouth syndrome.

We should each write a paragraph on a subject, combine it and submit it as an OP/ED.

Borg mentioned me doing an OP/ED on the uselessness of actually voting and I have started it, but I really enjoy your two view points.

Something to think about.

Semper

the woman I am dating says I drool, not foam but thats only in my sleep. I think what you are talking abou tax wise semper is income tax, you forget payroll taxes which we all, rich and poor alike pay, and then there are the various sales taxes which innevitably fall hardest on the poor, which is why assurances to the contrary, eliminating the income tax in favor of a national sales tax would be shifting more of the tax burden on to the people who can least afford it. I again stress it is how the welfare system was implimented, not the people recieving it, that was messed up...I think if you went down to your average human services office and actually talked to the people there you would find the vast majority hate the system as it is set up but see few options. A failure in vision, perhaps. But ya know you were born with ambition, i was born with a natural curiousity and a tolerance for others, others have different gifts and some were simply passed by. What the poor really need is a reason to hope because without hope, why should they even try? I remember we found out that my oldest step-son had been skipping school for several months so my late wife called the school up about why they hadn't bothered to notify her. They knew that she was afro-euro-asian and were very condecending to her on the phone, furious she dressed to the nines, and I, this moderatley tall white man got dressed up and went with her. The moment the woman she had been treated so poorly by saw us her tune changed completely to yes Mrs. St.Clair, no Mrs. St.Clair etc, and from that day forth if my step kids were 5 minutes late to school they were calling us up. it is that type of implicate racism that prevents alot of blacks and minorities from pushing matters, they tend to feel and rightfully so many times that the system is stacked against them...as long as they thought that our children were typical black (and chinese) kids from the poorer part of town, the authorities couldn't care less but when they realized (or thought is more like it) that we were"better" (for lack of another word) their tune changed completely. no we shouldn't coddle people when they are down and out, but we shouldn't penalize them for it either. Compassion should be the catch word...real compassion, not some callus Karl Rovian campagin slogan that means nothing at all.

Btw I kike your idea but we would need to work out the details...like I mentioned, if we sat down over a few beers (or a nice bottle of french wine :lol and had a civil airing of viewpoints I think that you would find that we agree far more than we differ. As Robert Hunter the lyricist for the Grateful Dead once wrote, "It is only ideas that keep us apart. "

I have no argument for you there.

Sometimes I forget all that I saw when on the road as a road officer and well... all I see everyday in my profession.

Feel free to visit my blog if you want to, I am airing it out on there a little at a time.
blog.abovetopsecret.com...

Your right of course, it is just frustrating seeing the abuse and watching my take home dwindle more and more every year.

As I said in one of my earlier posts, I was once a hard line tree hugger, LOL, I have to remember that the years in uniform and on the street should not so radically alter my true to heart convictions. That is what is so great about the discourse on here if more people would open their minds and stop with the personal attacks.

OK, I'll find something later on the argue with you about, for now, I am going to seriously consider your last post.

Semper

And I had a epipihny (bad spelling) on acid once whild playing with some moss, that moss was mother earth's pubic hair and I have been trying to get into her pants ever since I will check out your blog. W