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Haditha is the tip of the iceberg - Iraq atrocities continue

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posted on Jun, 5 2006 @ 01:38 PM
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Sporty... I have to apologise.

You ask for statistics, and I really, now, have neither the time nor the energy to give them to you. All I know is that day after day, week after week, I've seen stories of Iraqi civilians shot by US troops. I know that if you looked at the video in the links given earlier, you would have seen US troops testifying to the widespread practice of keeping an AK or a shovel in their patrol vehicle, so they could put them in a photograph by a corpse to provide "proof" that their victim was an insurgent.

What I AM saying is that I think the practice is sufficiently widespread to be a real problem for the army as a whole if the rules of combat were ruthlessly enforced, not merely in terms of taking the guilty parties out of the game, but also on the morale of those who are left. I don't know what proportion of US soldiers has killed Iraqis, I just know that daily reports of abuse have been coming out of Iraq.

Here are some recent links I've found. This is just US-inflicted fatalities, and some of them are labelled as accidents. In view of the fact that Haditha was misrepresented by the Pentagon, and also because if the US are responsible even if it was an accident, and the Iraqis will blame them anyway, I have not attempted to discriminate or place any blame whatsoever. I'm keeping it all open.

2 civilians killed, 4 wounded in blast
this story covers not only Haditha, but another cover-up:

In Al Hamdania, site of another alleged American atrocity in April, residents told ABC News today that a Marine sergeant lied on an official report about the death of a civilian, saying the man appeared to be planting a bomb. But several Marines have confessed to dragging the man from his house, shooting him and putting a shovel and weapon next to his body.

In both cases, investigators are focusing on whether higher-ups covered up the details......

But Iraqis say they are terrified by U.S. troops on patrol or at checkpoints, who can open fire if they believe they are "under threat." According to one police estimate, an innocent Iraqi civilian is killed by coalition forces every two days.

"If you want to see their terrorism, you don't have to go to Haditha," said one man, named Jabur. "Just go out on the street. If you drive too close to them you can get killed."

US confronts brutal culture among its finest sons


Mejia described an incident in Ramadi when his unit was manning a roadblock near a mosque. When one car refused to stop, US soldiers opened fire on it. Then the American unit came under fire from elsewhere. In the resulting firefight, however, no insurgents were killed while seven Iraqi civilians stuck at the roadblock died. No weapons were found in the car that had refused to stop. 'There was no sense in it. There was no basic humanity. They were all civilians and we didn't kill any insurgents,' Mejia said.

Marine's wife paints portrait of US troops out of control in Haditha

The Newsweek account described a gung-ho battalion that had staged a chariot race, complete with captured horses, togas and heavy metal music, before the battle for Falluja in late 2004. The marines were given loose rules of engagement in the vicious urban warfare that followed.

"If you see someone with a cellphone," said one of the commanders was quoted as saying, half-jokingly, "put a bullet in their f*****g head".

At one point in the battle, a marine from the 3rd battalion was caught on camera shooting a wounded, unarmed man as he lay on the ground. However, the marine involved was later exonerated.

Pregnant woman shot dead by US soldiers in Iraq
May 29: US troops kill 5, wound 2
Iraq's ambassador accuses US of murder
Countless My Lai Massacres in Iraq

Earlier this month, I received a news release from Iraq, which read, "On Saturday, May 13th, 2006, at 10:00 p.m., US Forces accompanied by the Iraqi National Guard attacked the houses of Iraqi people in the Al-Latifya district south of Baghdad by an intensive helicopter shelling. This led the families to flee to the Al-Mazar and water canals to protect themselves from the fierce shelling. Then seven helicopters landed to pursue the families who fled … and killed them. The number of victims amounted to more than 25 martyrs. US forces detained another six persons including two women named Israa Ahmed Hasan and Widad Ahmed Hasan, and a child named Huda Hitham Mohammed Hasan, whose father was killed during the shelling."

Similarly, in the city of Samara on May 5, MHRI reported, "American soldiers entered the house of Mr. Zidan Khalif Al-Heed after an attack upon American soldiers was launched nearby the house. American soldiers entered this home and killed the family, including the father, mother and daughter who is in the 6th grade, along with their son, who was suffering from mental and physical disabilities."


I'm starting to run out of room. There's more in the articles, and let's not forget that similar stuff is happening in Afghanistan... remember Afghanistan? All the dead there are Taliban, not insurgents, according to the US. Except possibly for the ones killed in the riot after the US convoy ran over some pedestrians in Kabul.

Your media is just not telling you the reality of all this stuff... one has to go and find it, but it's there.


[edit on 5-6-2006 by rich23]




posted on Jun, 5 2006 @ 01:45 PM
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you know what i hate about stories from wars like this is thats its often said that the victims are 'collateral damage'. im sorry but rounding up civilians into one room and blasting them away is not collateral damage, its murder.
another term used as a scapegoat is that these victims were 'insurgents' im sorry but i wish these top brass people would explain how a 7 month old baby or a ten year old child is an insurgent.

these people were murderd in cold blood cos these marines lost it. They should be treated the same way as everyone else does who commits a war crime.

It echos through out history of wars ie vietnam, cold war etc of troops going into villages and raping the woman and children then massacre them. i guess these were put down to collateral damage aswell.



posted on Jun, 5 2006 @ 01:58 PM
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Originally posted by Faust
Good Lord, enough of the "oil" point. It's baseless! It's just become a cute catchy thing to say about this "war for oil". If that's true why are Americans paying MORE at the pump than ever before?!? STFU!


(No! YOU STFU!... "No, you STFU!" ... if that is your level of discourse, you should give it up, frankly. When you made the deal with the devil, did he take your brain first, as down payment for your soul?:lol


Because the people who wanted this war are in the business of SELLING oil. Plus, the motivators are not merely financial, or to do with oil exclusively, it's just one of the things that helps it all roll along. The PNAC document "Project for the New American Century" is the new Mein Kampf, basically. It says it all. And I'm coming around to the idea that Iran is going to be in the cross-hairs before the end of the year. I thought the US might back off, but it's looking less likely.


On a side note: I've also noticed TOTAL anti-American spews on this website. If Bush sneezes in the wrong direction then every European is all over it. Yet when the MI5 does an "illegal" raid or when British troops in Iraq do something that hits the tabloids it's no big deal. You push it off as "oh, the MI5 got poor information and that's why it's ok"


No, I certainly don't. I'm well aware that the UK is hip-deep in this as well and I am mightily displeased that my democratic voice wasn't loud enough in the recent elections. I make no attempt to defend the evil actions of my country, just because it's my country. On the other hand, I'm very proud of those few soldiers who've refused to serve because a) they think it's illegal and b) they know the US troops treat Iraqis as untermenschen.


Well, didn't Bush get poor information about WMD's in Iraq??? But that's different because it's those phucking yankees, huh?


Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld got what they ASKED FOR and ignored anyone who said differently. Ask Karen Kwiatkowski or Ray McGovern.


BTW, i agree that the MI5 was misinformed and anything British troops do in Iraq is "reasonably" excussable because it's a freakin WAR.


Well that's mighty nice of you. But I disagree on the latter and think you've got the wrong end of the stick on the former. I suspect you watch too much Fox News to be correctly informed. If you look through the links already posted, you'll find one that points to a study showing that Fox viewers held the most misperceptions about the Iraq war.


Whenever the U.S. does something that gets the rest of the worlds attention then we're the devil. However, if your country has a natural disaster and the U.S. sends MILLIONS of dollars in aid it's EXPECTED. How about cutting us some slack? ...flame away.


All too often, what it gives with one hand it takes away with the other. But that's a whole nother thread.



posted on Jun, 5 2006 @ 02:43 PM
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Originally posted by rich23
And I'm coming around to the idea that Iran is going to be in the cross-hairs before the end of the year. I thought the US might back off, but it's looking less likely.


But of course this has to do for yet another war for oil right? The region being lopsided in power, Iran being the #1 terrorist state in the world, Iran's president saying he wants Israel wiped off the face of the map, Iran processing the richest Uranium possible and mirroring the same B.S. that North Korea was saying has NOTHING to do about it right???

I find it continuously funny how there is no supplies end to people like yourself. The same type that just sit and bitch. You make nothing happen, you make no effort to make changes besides watching and complaining about our im-perfect world and blaming it on everyone else. I'm going to take a gamble that if we could go back in time and rearrange it so there was no Iraq war, you would still find something to complain about. I mean we were talking about chemical weapons that Saddam was "suppose" to have had. You seem to be in the same mood about Iran too and they could develop nukes. If the U.S. goes to war with Iran you'll sit & bitch about that too. However, if the U.S. decides not to and Iran starts giving nukes to terrorists and begins to hold the world hostage then you'll probably start complaining how the diplomatic community should've done something about Iran when it had the chance. (and don't tell me about U.N. sanctions - biggest joke in the world, so is the U.N.)

Oh BTW, nice connection to the Mein Kampf and the U.S. policies. Yet another "yankee slam" by Eurotrash.



posted on Jun, 5 2006 @ 05:45 PM
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Originally posted by rich23
I think what you mean to say by all the above is "don't confuse me with the FACTS!"

It's reality having that well-known liberal bias again, ain't it?

Or was there an actual point you were trying to make there, but forgot to put in any argument or supporting evidence?

Actually, I've just noticed... you quote yourself and then say almost exactly the same thing word for word... you can't even come up with a new way of saying the same thing!


GET. REAL. JERK.


From the very first post of yours in thread, you branded these American troops as BABYKILLERS based on ALLEGATIONS!


You've already casted yourself as anti-American troop critic from the get-go and you've been ranting and ranting your long-winded blah-blahs over 7 webpages long already.
You have already demonstrated your BIAS from your first post, richboy!

This CNN reporter was with the same Marine unit in Haditha in the past:
I was with them in Husayba as they went house to house in an area where insurgents would booby-trap doors, or lie in wait behind closed doors with an AK-47, basically on suicide missions, just waiting for the Marines to come through and open fire. There were civilians in the city as well, and the Marines were always keenly aware of that fact. How they didn't fire at shadows, not knowing what was waiting in each house, I don't know. But they didn't.

And I was with them in Haditha, a month before the alleged killings last November of some 24 Iraqi civilians.

I'm told that investigators now strongly suspect a rampage by a small number of Marines who snapped after one of their own was killed by a roadside bomb.

Haditha was full of IEDs. It seemed they were everywhere, like a minefield. In fact, the number of times that we were told that we were standing right on top of an IED minutes before it was found turned into a dark joke between my CNN team and me.


If I was in that Marine unit and I got killed by an IED, I would wanted my Marine buddies to mow down the b*st*rds who planted the IED in the first place and kick people's butts for aiding and abetting the murderous IED-planting b*st*rds.


You have to face up the very fact that many Islamic militants in Iraq do NOT follow the ROE with the Marines, richboy!! Even Somalia militants back in 1993 when they were pinning down and fighting American troops followed the ROE!

Fortunately it took a small team of US MARINE INTELLIGENCE UNIT who brought the Haditha massacre allegations to the light and ultimately took few strung-out Marines out of action to answer inquiries and possibly face murder charges in the court of law and justice, Marine Corp-style.

What I loath about you, richboy, you took allegations prematurely and blown it out of proportion to warrant your anti-American troop position on this thread, seven webpages long. As if you HOPE the Haditha affair would smear the Bush administration and the troops in Iraq in general, as clearly indicated in your own avatar.

[edit on 6/5/2006 by pawnplayer]



posted on Jun, 5 2006 @ 06:02 PM
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Faust, please quit embarrassing the rest of us yankess with comments like "Eurotrash". Name calling is low level debate at its worst. Rich23 has contributed as much or more to this thread as anyone, and I appreciate his posts. When our government does wrong it is our duty (your duty) to protest rather than to defend the indefensible.

Do you think that GW gives a rat's ass about you? Why do you feel a need to defend every bad act committed by your government and its agents? Or to swallow whole every falsehood it spoon feeds you?

Reading your posts makes me keep my head far away from the computer screen lest I get a kick in the teeth from your knee-jerk statements.

[edit on 6/5/2006 by dubiousone]



posted on Jun, 5 2006 @ 06:38 PM
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I think the point that is getting lost in this thread now with personal attacks is that yes these things have, are and will continue to happen in war zones. And the US troops are definately not the only ones who have transgressed, but those that do commit atrocities, no matter whose countries forces they belong to should be made examples of. These atrocities have been happening in armed conflicts since man first picked up a stick and belted his neighbour in the cave next door, doesnt make it right, but surely if it is happening we should all make enough noise so that maybe it wont happen again! Anyone that believes that innocent men, women or children havent been killed by scared, stressed, or just plain bad soldiers now or in the past is living in a parallel universe where bad s#%t doesnt happen.



posted on Jun, 5 2006 @ 06:46 PM
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Pawnplayer, from all those red faces I think you're going to give yourself a heart attack. So much hatred... goodness me.

Yes, I know about the CNN reporter "embedded" with the troops. You know, back in the day, they only used to do that very occasionally because the reporter would lose professional detachment. They'd generally try and cover the war in an unbiased way. Then the US decided to do this "embedding" business and the reporters "go native". Your idea of a real reporter is probably Geraldo flouncing around in a flak jacket wanting to kill some "hajj".

I found her last sentence particularly amusing:


There was also -- can you believe it? -- the allegations of the Haditha probe.


Can you believe it? Well, yes I can, because it's just the latest in a long line of this stuff which I've heard about and you haven't, because a) your media aren't doing a good job of reporting the war and b) you just want to put your hands over your ears and go "la-la-la-la-laaaaa, I'm not listening! Bad facts can't get me if I don't hear them!"

And she'd better learn to believe it, because these guys are going to be hung out to dry so Dubya can say (with as straight a face as that smirking simian can muster) "We investigerated all irrigations regarding those troops, and we found us some bad apples. And we've dealt with those bad apples, and now it's time to move forward, so that the Iraqi people can move forward, and we can all move forward together..." and so on... and so on...

Meanwhile the carnage will continue, with "men in police uniforms" - that's a nice new phrase we're seeing a lot of lately, those of us that are keeping an eye - rounding up troublemakers, cable-tying them, and shooting them. Is there some costume warehouse these guys are getting their police uniforms from? And next door is there a place that hires Toyota Land Cruisers? Or, as I've suggested earlier, is the US reinstating its death squad policy, like in Salvador, and Haiti, and Chile, and Brazil, and Guatemala, and Iran (under the Shah, but you're probably too young to remember the SAVAK), and Bolivia, and... the list goes on.

Remember, I told you, all of these death squad guys were trained in the School of the Americas (as was) in Fort Benning Ga.



Fortunately it took a small team of US MARINE INTELLIGENCE UNIT who brought the Haditha massacre allegations to the light and ultimately took few strung-out Marines out of action to answer inquiries and possibly face murder charges in the court of law and justice, Marine Corp-style.


Riiiiight...you're just not getting this whole "rotten apple" ploy thing I'm talking about, are you? Never mind.

So all the deaths that I wrote about in the other recent posts (that last list I did hardly went back a month) and the police estimates of one dead civilian every two days... all that just didn't happen? ("la-la-la-la-laaaa"...)

All those links I gave, and you'd sooner believe the story of one CNN reporter who wasn't even there when it happened? ("la-la-la-la-laaaa"...)



What I loath about you, richboy, you took allegations prematurely and blown it out of proportion to warrant your anti-American troop position on this thread, seven webpages long. As if you HOPE the Haditha affair would smear the Bush administration and the troops in Iraq in general, as clearly indicated in your own avatar.


What I loathe (sp) about your government is the way they invade other countries, lie about it before, during and afterwards, and make out they're doing it for democracy. I even heard George Bush (2 rigged elections) warn Hugo Chavez for his anti-democratic ways the other day... ludicrous.

Haditha doesn't "smear" the Bush administration, not outside the little bubble of unreality you call home. Out here in the wider world we're not cocooned so closely within the US propaganda machine and we're able to form our own opinions of him, his cabinet and their actions, thank you very much.

But the admninistration's handling of it is interesting, and illustrative of my point.



posted on Jun, 5 2006 @ 07:10 PM
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Originally posted by Faust

But of course this has to do for yet another war for oil right? The region being lopsided in power, Iran being the #1 terrorist state in the world, Iran's president saying he wants Israel wiped off the face of the map, Iran processing the richest Uranium possible and mirroring the same B.S. that North Korea was saying has NOTHING to do about it right???


Oh man, you have GOT to be a Fox viewer, right? Just indulge me on this, you do, don't you? That's where you get all this tosh from, isn't it?

Yes, the region IS lopsided in power:

Israel : over 200 nukes
rest of the region: none

If you read a less biased translation of what Ahmedinajad said, it comes out rather differently. The translation you read was created by a group called MEMRI, and they have been known to put a lot of spin on similar things in the past. I'm not trying to make Iran's government out to be saintly. I'm simply trying to make the points that a) they are neither stupid nor mad, and b) there is a campaign going to make them out to be incredibly evil to justify military action of some kind up to and including invasion. I just can't believe you're swallowing all this crud again, frankly. Didn't you find ANYTHING odd about the reasons for the Iraq war? You just sat and lapped it all up and didn't notice when the reasons changed, and no WMD were found... that never bothered you? You never thought, "oh, that's funny, Rummy said he knew EXACTLY where they were"?

And the stuff about Iran processing the richest uranium possible... well, it's going to take them decades to get there, but you'd rather believe the scaremongers.



You make nothing happen, you make no effort to make changes besides watching and complaining about our im-perfect world and blaming it on everyone else. I'm going to take a gamble that if we could go back in time and rearrange it so there was no Iraq war, you would still find something to complain about. I mean we were talking about chemical weapons that Saddam was "suppose" to have had. You seem to be in the same mood about Iran too and they could develop nukes. If the U.S. goes to war with Iran you'll sit & bitch about that too.


I do what I can and I try to spread information around to expose the nonsense of what is going on. And the loss of over 100,000 civilian lives - and the promise of much more of the same when the US invades Iran - seems to bother you not in the slightest. If you consider yourself a Christian then maybe you should meditate on that old "thou shalt not kill" gag for a while, you might calm down and stop frothing at the mouth for a bit.



However, if the U.S. decides not to and Iran starts giving nukes to terrorists and begins to hold the world hostage then you'll probably start complaining how the diplomatic community should've done something about Iran when it had the chance.


It's just... delusional. Iran DON'T have nukes, and if they did, they'd want to hang on to them as a deterrent to Israel rather than give them to someone who could get them bombed to glass by the US. You just don't seem to think these people have any sense at all. If you do attribute normal human qualities to them you might be able to see the games your leaders are playing. As long as you continue to dehumanise them, you'll be led by the nose for many more years.


(and don't tell me about U.N. sanctions - biggest joke in the world, so is the U.N.)


Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of kids who died in Iraq thanks to UN sanctions which were implemented at the behest of the US.


Oh BTW, nice connection to the Mein Kampf and the U.S. policies. Yet another "yankee slam" by Eurotrash.


I was making a serious point. Everything that's happening is being played out of that playbook, which I'm betting you haven't read.



posted on Jun, 5 2006 @ 07:13 PM
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Originally posted by mojo4sale
I think the point that is getting lost in this thread now with personal attacks is that yes these things have, are and will continue to happen in war zones. And the US troops are definately not the only ones who have transgressed, but those that do commit atrocities, no matter whose countries forces they belong to should be made examples of. These atrocities have been happening in armed conflicts since man first picked up a stick and belted his neighbour in the cave next door, doesnt make it right, but surely if it is happening we should all make enough noise so that maybe it wont happen again! Anyone that believes that innocent men, women or children havent been killed by scared, stressed, or just plain bad soldiers now or in the past is living in a parallel universe where bad s#%t doesnt happen.


While I absolutely agree with you, I also think that war crimes charges should be brought against Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Blair, Jack Straw and a few dozen others. The fact that this kind of stuff happens in war means that pre-emptive, unprovoked war is the biggest crime of all, as it contains the inevitable seeds of all the others.

And Dubiousone, thanks for the word, sir.


[edit on 5-6-2006 by rich23]



posted on Jun, 5 2006 @ 10:43 PM
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Originally posted by rich23
Can you believe it? Well, yes I can, because it's just the latest in a long line of this stuff which I've heard about and you haven't, because a) your media aren't doing a good job of reporting the war and b) you just want to put your hands over your ears and go "la-la-la-la-laaaaa, I'm not listening! Bad facts can't get me if I don't hear them!"


No, the simple fact that you're a TOOL for anti-Americanism. There's no rational discussion with you as you're keeping spinning your anti-American nonsense in this thread you've already hijacked as your personal soap-box.



Originally posted by rich23
Riiiiight...you're just not getting this whole "rotten apple" ploy thing I'm talking about, are you? Never mind.


The only rotten apple I see so far is you. The soap-box you're standing on is cracking apart.



posted on Jun, 5 2006 @ 10:54 PM
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Originally posted by rich23
Israel : over 200 nukes
rest of the region: none


Okay, in your sad, pathetic fantasy world, it would have come out like this, supposedly as you would have like in the future:
Israel: over 200 nukes
Iran: 50 nukes
Pakistan: 120 nukes
Saudi Arabia: 50 nukes
Egypt: 25 nukes
Syria: 15 nukes
Jordan: 5 nukes
Lebanon: 10-12 nukes
Yemen: 5-10 nukes

Never mind the fact there are terrorists who can procure nuclear weapons easily in the future. ROE and diplomatic meetings be damned.


Originally posted by rich23
I was making a serious point. Everything that's happening is being played out of that playbook, which I'm betting you haven't read.


You're not making any serious point worth opining as long as you're spinning your bias and hatred toward American troops here. Marines has to deal with IEDs planted by insurgents who won't even engage them as fighters.

Maybe I should plant an IED and detonate it as you walk by as an everyday demonstration?


[edit on 6/5/2006 by pawnplayer]



posted on Jun, 6 2006 @ 01:38 AM
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See, now you're just making stuff up.... I give you facts and figures and analysis, you give me fantasy.

Reality=liberal bias in your rather sad world. Quit the name-calling, stop watching Fox, get some real data and try and get a POV of your own.



posted on Jun, 6 2006 @ 01:43 AM
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Originally posted by dubiousone
When our government does wrong it is our duty (your duty) to protest rather than to defend the indefensible.
[edit on 6/5/2006 by dubiousone]


Right, well our government didn't apparently kill innocent civilians, our troops apparently did. Individuals that act on their own. If you were president the same thing would happen everyday. You don't control the uncontrollable. Also, protesting is fine, however, our troops are INNOCENT until proven guilty. Protest when the finality of it is shown. Also, let me say this again and hopefully you read IT this time. This is a W A R. It isn't like you stressing to find a parking spot at Wal-Mart. Phucked up sh!t happens everyday in a war, uncontrollable stuff. Take a step back and try and realize this, ok?



posted on Jun, 6 2006 @ 01:49 AM
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BUT your government put them in place. There was no provocation for the war, and that is why waging war is the worst war crime, because it contains the seeds of all the others.

The cabal that stole the last two elections are as responsible for this as if they pulledthe trigger themselves.



posted on Jun, 6 2006 @ 01:52 AM
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Originally posted by rich23

It's just... delusional. Iran DON'T have nukes, and if they did, they'd want to hang on to them as a deterrent to Israel rather than give them to someone who could get them bombed to glass by the US. You just don't seem to think these people have any sense at all. If you do attribute normal human qualities to them you might be able to see the games your leaders are playing. As long as you continue to dehumanise them, you'll be led by the nose for many more years.


That first sentence sounds almost identical to sit & bitchers many moons ago before North Korea was doing the same thing. AND look at North Korea now. So much for history repeating itself in your mind. And Iran would want nukes as a deterrant to Israels nukes? Yes, we all count the numerous times Israel has stated that they wanted Iran wiped off the map. Or the numerous terrorists that come out of Israel and blow themselves up in Iran on buses. Or all the previous times Israel has used it's nukes against its neighbors. You are the biggest joke i've read posts from for a long time.



posted on Jun, 6 2006 @ 02:05 AM
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Originally posted by rich23
BUT your government put them in place. There was no provocation for the war, and that is why waging war is the worst war crime, because it contains the seeds of all the others.


Ok, i'm gonna state this once again for you wack jobs. After 9-11 an operative for Saddam hussein was seen talking with a member of Al-Quida. Even during the Clinton administration his info from the CIA told him the same thing that was later told to Bush. Iraq is seeking WMD's. Now let's connect the dots, ok? PLEASE FOLLOW THIS TIME. Here we go, are you ready? 9-11 - thousands DEAD, Al-Quida is to blame, Osama Bin Laden admits on film for wanting WMD's to use against Americans, connections from al-Quida member and Saddam operative confirmed, Presidents NUMBER ONE JOB IS TO PROTECT AMERICAN LIVES. War against Iraq is a no-brainer. DUH! Ok, puzzle complete. There IS provocation for this war.

However, no WMD's found. CIA had piss-poor info, not Bush. New CIA director has been put into office. We have a war torn Iraq. Americas Constitution states to rebuild any country it invades. But, just like the Werewolves of Germany, we have to battle insurgents who destroy rebuilding efforts. If we leave Iraq now we betray our own constitution. It's more than a piece of paper to me rich.



posted on Jun, 6 2006 @ 02:27 AM
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There is some very heavy spin coming out of Israel about Iran at the moment. The distortions about enrichment levels, the translations of Ahmedinajad's speeches, that nonsense about non-muslims being required to wear identifying badges... and so on.

Do you know what the Mossad motto is? "By deception shall ye wage war".

There's also the fact that a large number of the PNAC crew have strong ties to Israel and produced a report for the Israeli government of a similar stripe. The Israelis are too smart to say any of that stuff you suggest out loud... plus they can get th US to do the work, which is what is happening. Right now there's something approacing genocide going on in Palestine right now as the people there are being starved... no-one in the West says a thing about it,

Israel invaded Lebanon, remember, and sanctioned atrocities there. They've bombed atomic plants in the region before... they just get away with their aggression because the US helps them do it. Countless votes of censure in the UN, and the only two countries voting against are Israel and the US.

As for the comparisons with North Korea, I think that historically the defining moment for Iran was when CIA agent Kernit Roosevelt (yes, one of those Roosevelts) engineered a coup against democratically-elected President Mossadegh and brought back the Shah, furnishing him with the SAVAK death squads and beginning two decades of terror that made findamentalism seem like a good deal. Why a coup? Mossadegh wanted to throw out the UK and US oil companies and negotiate a better deal with someone else.

When the Iranians overthrew the Shah, why do you think they stormed th US embassy (which they termed the nest if spies)? Was it because the US is such a friend to democracy? No. It was because they knew, far better than the cocooned US citizens, who had been responsible for all those disappearances.

There is a word for when that sort of thing happens, It's "blowback".



posted on Jun, 6 2006 @ 02:48 AM
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Faust , you said "Americas Constitution states to rebuild any country it invades". What???? Please tell us which article and section.



posted on Jun, 6 2006 @ 05:34 AM
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dont know if any have read this article its an in depth look at this tragady (cant spell) worth a look

www.time.com...




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