Marines may face death penalty.

US marines involved in the Haditha incident may face the death penalty if found guilty.

An inquiry into the killing of Iraqi civilians in Haditha will reveal some officers gave their superiors false reports, it has been claimed.

Several marines are facing prosecution after 24 civilians, including women and children, were killed in the Iraqi town on November 19.

If convicted of murder, they face the death penalty.

Source: www.sky.com...

As an ex member of the forces myself, i'm not too sure how to react to this. I know i was a bit stunned when i read the part about facing the death penalty. Fair enough if these marines are guilty they should be punished severely, i'm just wondering how the world would react to seeing US marines put to death for actions in a war that so many are against anyway?

CX.

It will never happen. Its possible in a legal sense for them to get that verdict, but it will never happen.

Nope.

Right, wrong, or indifferent they wont be executed.

I hope they are killed, anyone who kills infants deserve to die, it would also make other Americans think twice before killing innocent civilians.

Originally posted by Flyer
I hope they are killed, anyone who kills infants deserve to die, it would also make other Americans think twice before killing innocent civilians.

You assume their guilt. I assume their innocence.

And what does "...it would also make other Americans think twice before killing innocent civilians..." Mean?

I did a quick scan of some of your other posts and I wasn’t able to find the same sentiment regarding the hundreds or even thousands of civilians and babies the terrorists kill ON PURPOSE, do I detect an agenda? Or are you just a hate filled terrorist sympathizer? After all, doesn’t the death of all kids make you just as angry? Or is it just the ones Americans are suspected of killing?

Deny ignorance buddy, don’t breed it.

Originally posted by skippytjc
And what does "...it would also make other Americans think twice before killing innocent civilians..." Mean?

- I would have thought that pretty clear.
Don't you believe the law is supposed to deter as well as punish?

I wasn’t able to find the same sentiment regarding the hundreds or even thousands of civilians and babies the terrorists kill ON PURPOSE

- Wow, is that it?
Is the standard by which you now gauge US military actions a passing reference about what 'the terrorists' do or do not do now, skippy?!

It appears exactly the same sinking of standards goes on in every drawn out 'war'.

When your best line is effectively a "well look at them!" you know things are going badly wrong.

Deny ignorance buddy, don’t breed it.

- Whoosh!
Spot the irony by-pass.

Thankfully others are taking a different view on this -

US-led troops in Iraq are to undergo ethical training in the wake of the alleged murder of civilians in Haditha.
For the next 30 days, they will receive lessons in "core warrior values", a military statement said.

news.bbc.co.uk...



[edit on 1-6-2006 by sminkeypinkey]

There's an argument to be made that it's hypocritical of us as a nation to say that these face to face murders (it seems apparent they were executed) are much different than the indiscriminate aerial bombing and sniping of civilians that's been taking place for the past few years. In fact, I would suggest that these marines are more honorable (if possibe) than the jocks who drop bombs and missiles on civilian targets.

Murdering civilians has a rich history in the US armed forces. Filippinos were killed for sport in Teddy Roosevelt's day. We intentionally fire bombed some 60 Japanese cities in WWII killing hundreds of thousands of innocents. And don't forget Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

It's not to suggest I approve of such tactics. I don't. And I hope the Military Code of Justice is enforced here. The death penalty is unlikely, however. But this terrible crime is a sign of the fact that these kids are overworked in an environment where they never know for sure who the enemy really is. When a car bomb or ied kills your friend who do you retaliate against? These guys made their choice based upon untenable circumstances. They lost it and they will pay. But the question is, why did they lose it?

Originally posted by Flyer
I hope they are killed, anyone who kills infants deserve to die, it would also make other Americans think twice before killing innocent civilians.

I would hope that quote goes for the terorists who have killed innocent victims too?
Maybe you forgot that fact when you posted? Never mind. Mistakes can ,and do happen.

Originally posted by CX
US marines involved in the Haditha incident may face the death penalty if found guilty.

This has always been the case and never has the death penalty not been the ultimate end option for courts marshal regarding actions (IF found guilty fro crimes at this level) by those who commit murderous atrocities while in uniform in varying states . As an “ex member” of the “forces” you know this…yes?

Your source:

An inquiry into the killing of Iraqi civilians in Haditha will reveal some officers gave their superiors false reports, it has been claimed.

This is a completely separate issue and different laws come into play.

So far everything…everything is alleged. If…IF… they are indeed found guilty by the evidence…found guilty after a thorough investigation has concluded… then they deserve more than what can possibly be given in punitive actions by the courts marshal….not until then.

Originally posted by Flyer
I hope they are killed, anyone who kills infants deserve to die, it would also make other Americans think twice before killing innocent civilians.

You look them in the eye deliver and carry-out the sentences you prescribe. You explain, in detail, that all the evidence you currently possess is enough to send these boys to their demise.

Then you explain to these men you are in fact a murderer of the same scale and dimension that the accusers, you, purport these men to be…with no trial, no complete investigation, no justice…just spot judgment based on loose facts….you sir are guilty in you own words of the same actions of those you flippantly accuse.


mg

Originally posted by Bikereddie
I would hope that quote goes for the terorists who have killed innocent victims too?

- As someone who does not believe in the death penalty as a suitable punishment for anyone I couldn't agree to anyone being killed over this.

But the law should be the same (without favour is the correct term I believe) for all.

Mistakes can ,and do happen.

- As a student of the troubles in Northern Ireland I can readily agree to this point.

There are indeed cases of mistakes or sheer blind panic and a total loss of control (though the forces rarely care to admit to that one).
But let's not kid ourselves, there are also, sometimes, cases of sheer bloody murder too.

I can also see parallels between Iraq and NI where 'standards' sometimes sank abysmally and the defence, as here, was often reduced to a feeble 'well they did it more'.

I would hope that quote goes for the terorists who have killed innocent victims too?

Well I can't speak for Flyer, but yeah I'd just as happily see the insurgents intentionally blowing up kids hang as the Marines intentionally blowing away kids. Without hesitation.

You intentionally slaughter a bunch of innocents, you forfeit your own life. What's fair for the goose is fair for the gander IMHO.

All I have to say is if they are guilty, they should be punished. If found innocent, they should be free of the stigma that came with being accused of this crime. But seriously folks, even in military investigation and trial, defendants are innocent until prooven guilty by law. So lets not jump the gun here k.

BTW, for all you folks so convinced of these guys' innocence, perhaps you missed this:

Marine Injured In Haditha Explains Unit's Actions

A Marine from the unit in question, wounded in the IED attack that killed another Marine and set the incident, seems pretty convinced they did it.

Lance Cpl. James Crossan was in Haditha, Iraq on Nov. 19 when U.S. Marines allegedly gunned down two-dozen Iraqi civilians. Crosson said the Marines involved were probably seeking revenge for a roadside bomb that injured him and killed fellow Marine Miguel Terrazas.

"I think they were just blinded by hate," Crosson said. "They saw TJ blown to pieces and lost control."

"Seeing us get hit -- just like if your friend gets hit -- you're going to get really pissed off and angry," he continued. "You're going to probably do something that doesn't need to be done, which was the incident that happened. They knew he was dead by looking at him, and they thought I was dead, too. It had a major effect on them."

It doesn't sound to me like he has a lot of doubt that they did it.
If a wounded Marine from their own unit is convinced they did, it's not looking really good...

Remember that deserter who went to NK. What do we do to deserters like him?

Sh*t happens in war. When you life and the lives of others is on the line, and people are shooting you, the shoot first and ask questions later is usually the preferable option. You just aint got time to decide. That is understandable. Mistakes to happen, innocent people are killed.

However, we are dealing with something totally different here. The charges are that these Marines, in an act of cold blooded calculating revenge, went out and shot in cold blood unarmed citizens who had nothing to do with the attack on their friend, women and children included. Not out of a sheer battle rage or panic because of imminent danger. But a premeditated cold blooded act of pure vengance to kill people in retaliation for the death of a fellow Marine in a bombing. THAT, my friends, is indisputably, a war crime. It is murder and a deliberate, provable crime. Battle stress should not and cannot excuse such behavior.

If these charges are indeed true, these Marines have disgraced their uniform and fellows, and should be stripped of all rank and honors, dishonorably discharged, and executed by hanging.

I honestly hope these charges are a fabrication and false. Its disgusting behavior.

Myself, I have faith in the justice system. And I also am hoping this is not going to be another case like the prison incident. The main question will be, is that will those in command be held equally accountable? Yes if they are guilty they should be punished, but the upper command should also bear part of that blame and guilt as well. Everything I am hearing is that a commander is as responsible for those under his or her command and their actions. If the commanding officer is let off, and those marines are found guilty, then it is not a case of justice, but rather, the need for a scapegoat.


Just my thoughts.

Originally posted by missed_gear

Originally posted by CX
US marines involved in the Haditha incident may face the death penalty if found guilty.

This has always been the case and never has the death penalty not been the ultimate end option for courts marshal regarding actions (IF found guilty fro crimes at this level) by those who commit murderous atrocities while in uniform in varying states . As an “ex member” of the “forces” you know this…yes?

Your source:

An inquiry into the killing of Iraqi civilians in Haditha will reveal some officers gave their superiors false reports, it has been claimed.

This is a completely separate issue and different laws come into play.

Yes as an "ex member" of the "forces" i am more than well aware of this, however knowing that this could happen in theory and actually seeing it being a possibility in an actual case that lets face it, does'nt look great for the marines at the moment, well it just opens your eyes a bit. My suprise or alarm at the fact that they could face the death penalty also stems from the issue over our troops being over there in the first place.
A very controversial issue, many people have died because of this war, it's not nice seeing innocent Iraqi's die and it's not nice seeing our troops die, couple that with "should they have been sent in the first place" and it gets you thinking thats all.

As for the falsified reports being a seperate issue, i was merely posting ONE report which includes BOTH issues. Anyone with any sense can see i'm referring to the marines that allegedly carried out the shooting being given the death penalty!

CX.

Originally posted by xmotex
BTW, for all you folks so convinced of these guys' innocence.

And that link is smoking gun proof? At best its circumstantial. You yourself seem so convinced of their guilt before the trial is even begun. Thank god the decision isnt up to you. But as I said before. If they are found guilty in a court of law, fair game, just as if they are found innocent, its fair game. But presuming innocence or guilt before the trial begins shows bias one way or the other. Leave it to the court to decide.

I'm not sure why people are shocked by this incident.

This kind of thing has been happening on a weekly basis, according to witness reports, since the war began. The only difference here is that there was a survivor and a student in the area happened to a video camera and documented the physical evidence before it could be sanitized.

Like Gitmo and Abu Ghraib, this incident appears to be a reflection of the "kill, kill, kill" attitude being pushed down from higher ranks. I mean look at Fallujah. By all reports it was a "turkey shoot" with men, women and children being head-hunted by snipers.

This isn't an abberation. This is how this war is being fought. This incidentof mass murder is an indictment of Rumsfeld and the entire military establishment running the "war" over there. Why do you think they only allow in journalists who agree to be "embedded" (in bed with) the troops. It's so they can control what they witness and therefore what they report. And why do you suppose 70 journalists have been killed so far? The independent journalists have been identified as targets because they film, video and write about what they see on the street. That is unacceptable. It's why leakers of any stripe are being hunted by the DOJ at White House orders. It's why whistleblowers are being openly retaliated against with the approval of the government up to and including the US Supreme Court.

Wake up people. Don't pretend that American is something it can no longer claim to be. As Bush said, 9-11 changed everything - including our own identity.

That's going a little overboard, isnt it? A stiff prison sentence would do.

I am against what they did but not to punish them with death.

Well I'm not 100% convinced, but like I said, it's not looking good.

And yeah, of course they should get a fair trial.

But frankly, if a guy from their own unit thinks they did it, a Pentagon preliminary inquiry has already determined they were lying about what happened, other Marines who came along later are convinced they did it... come on, who are you trying to kid here?

"Innocent until proven guilty" applies in a court of law.

That doesn't mean we don't make up our own minds, based on the available evidence, until a vertict is reached. I didn't need to wait for John Allen Muhammad to be convicted to believe he was guilty. The evidence was pretty clear. I didn't need to wait for the 9-11 Comission Report to come out to be pretty damn convinced that OBL and Al Quaeda were behind the attacks. And frankly I'm pretty sure OJ was guilty, even though he was acquitted...