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Dr. Vannevar Bush: A Question for the Masons

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posted on Jun, 1 2006 @ 11:13 AM
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When I was looking up a site about famous freemasons, I was a bit surprised to find that Dr. Vannevar Bush, one of America's greatest scientists, was a Mason.

Those who study the UFO phenomenon, especially Roswell, will immediately recognize Dr. Bush as President Truman's science advisor and a member of the alledged MJ-12 panel.

My questions are, given that Dr. Bush had full knowledge and access to all the findings and wreckage at Roswell, would he have shared the knowledge that we are not alone with his fellow Masons? Would such a secret be in safe keeping amongst his fellow Masons, who would also take the secrets to their grave? or would he have witheld such information, strictly obeying the wishes of his President (who was also a Mason, I believe) to tell no one? Would Harry Truman object to the sharing of such a discovery with other Masonic brothers? How deep is the trust amongst lodges? Would other brothers keep the secrets to themselves?

The reason I ask is that I wanted to know about whether or not such information as the discovery of intelligent alien life form would be seen as something essential for the Masons to know about. How would such a thing effect Masonic beliefs and practices? I also wanted to know about the bonds of duty and trust amongst brothers. How far does their loyalty to the lodge extend? Would a Mason be violating any oaths by telling a few others of something he was sworn to secrecy about?

This is not a debate about whether or not you believe E.T.s are real, or if you believe the alien theory of Roswell. Its really about masons in general. I was curious to know how deep the bonds of other Brothers are.

If you like, Ill give you a hypothetical situation. Lets say Masonic Light or another Mason here worked for the government in a position of trust and secrecy. One day, you were taken to a hangar and shown alien bodies and an alien space ship, and asked for your expertise on learning about it. You were also told that this matter was the most classified secret in the government, and no one else was to know, not even your family.

Would you tell a few fellow Masons who you trust dearly, out of a sense of duty to keep your brothers informed on this most important discovery? Would such a revelation to a few brothers be violating Masonic oaths of duty to country and Supreme Being? Or would you keep such a thing silent from your Brothers?

Obviously, I am not refering to telling every Mason you meet, or everyone in your lodge. Just a few highly trusted friends, or maybe higher degree masons. I await your responses!




posted on Jun, 1 2006 @ 11:24 AM
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Would you tell a few fellow Masons who you trust dearly, out of a sense of duty to keep your brothers informed on this most important discovery?

Or even just as chit-chat.

"FIAT LUX FRATER, whad ya do today'

"Buried some little green men" *eats spaghetti*

"Sounds Fun" *adjusts fez*


But seriously, his lodge might be a good place for rosewell and mj-12 researchers to look for inter-personal networks.



posted on Jun, 1 2006 @ 11:55 AM
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Originally posted by Nygdan

Or even just as chit-chat.

"FIAT LUX FRATER, whad ya do today'

"Buried some little green men" *eats spaghetti*

"Sounds Fun" *adjusts fez*


But seriously, his lodge might be a good place for rosewell and mj-12 researchers to look for inter-personal networks.




Indeed, I agree. Strangely, I have noticed that neither Stan Friedman nor other MJ-12 researchers have stated that they did look up their local lodges. I certainly would. I wouldn't really expect a fellow Mason to talk about something a Brother had told them in confidence, however, sometimes the absence of something or ommission of details can be as telling as their presence.



posted on Jun, 1 2006 @ 12:08 PM
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Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf


If you like, Ill give you a hypothetical situation. Lets say Masonic Light or another Mason here worked for the government in a position of trust and secrecy. One day, you were taken to a hangar and shown alien bodies and an alien space ship, and asked for your expertise on learning about it. You were also told that this matter was the most classified secret in the government, and no one else was to know, not even your family.

Would you tell a few fellow Masons who you trust dearly, out of a sense of duty to keep your brothers informed on this most important discovery? Would such a revelation to a few brothers be violating Masonic oaths of duty to country and Supreme Being? Or would you keep such a thing silent from your Brothers?

Obviously, I am not refering to telling every Mason you meet, or everyone in your lodge. Just a few highly trusted friends, or maybe higher degree masons. I await your responses!


Hmmm....I probably wouldn't tell anyone, providing there was no pressing reason to do so. It's not that I wouldn't trust other Masons, but there are many non-Masons that I trust wholeheartedly too, so Masonic membership probably wouldn't be an issue.

It would probably be more along the line that a general panic would ensue if this were to be made known, so I'd keep it hush-hush. It would be different if there was an emergency in which people actually needed to know for reasons of survival.



posted on Jun, 1 2006 @ 12:44 PM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light

Hmmm....I probably wouldn't tell anyone, providing there was no pressing reason to do so. It's not that I wouldn't trust other Masons, but there are many non-Masons that I trust wholeheartedly too, so Masonic membership probably wouldn't be an issue.

It would probably be more along the line that a general panic would ensue if this were to be made known, so I'd keep it hush-hush. It would be different if there was an emergency in which people actually needed to know for reasons of survival.




So it would boil town to a simple issue of common fairness and morality then? You thus feel that being a Mason would have nothing to do with whether or not you would share such info if you chose to do so? Fair enough.

How do you think, if such a revalation was made to a Masonic lodge, that the general practices, rites, and beliefs in Masonry would change upon such a revalation? Would it be effected at all? Would the proof of E.T. life, here and visiting earth, have any impact on Masonry?

Also, would failing to reveal such info to your Brothers or other persons violate any Masonic oaths or duties, or would revelaing such info violate such things?

Thanks.



posted on Jun, 1 2006 @ 01:08 PM
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Hi Skadi

I can only really give you my personal take on this, based on my knowledge of freemasonry and the people I know who are freemasons.


Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
My questions are, given that Dr. Bush had full knowledge and access to all the findings and wreckage at Roswell, would he have shared the knowledge that we are not alone with his fellow Masons?

He might have done, but not particularly because they were masons per se, but because they were friends. There is nothing in freemasonry that would obligate him to pass this information on to a mason. He would need to make a personal judgement call about who, if anyone, he should discuss this with, taking into account restrictions placed on him by his employer.


Would such a secret be in safe keeping amongst his fellow Masons, who would also take the secrets to their grave?

Should he choose to share that information with someone, a mason would be a good choice. We are exhorted to keep our (legal & moral) brothers' secrets 'as if they were our own'. I would point out at this time that this advice is good for anyone, not just masons, as it is rude and untrustworthy to spill anyones (legal & moral) secrets given to you in confidence.


or would he have witheld such information, strictly obeying the wishes of his President (who was also a Mason, I believe) to tell no one?

If his employer (or any Entruster really) asked him not to spill the beans I would think he would be morally (and perhaps in this case legally) bound not to. Membership of the Craft is irrelevant.


Would Harry Truman object to the sharing of such a discovery with other Masonic brothers?

Most certainly he would be upset if someone betrayed his trust. I know I would.


How deep is the trust amongst lodges?

As good as the value of the individuals within it.


Would other brothers keep the secrets to themselves?

I would like to think so.


The reason I ask is that I wanted to know about whether or not such information as the discovery of intelligent alien life form would be seen as something essential for the Masons to know about. How would such a thing effect Masonic beliefs and practices? I also wanted to know about the bonds of duty and trust amongst brothers. How far does their loyalty to the lodge extend? Would a Mason be violating any oaths by telling a few others of something he was sworn to secrecy about?


I was curious to know how deep the bonds of other Brothers are.

It would be utterly irrelevant to freemasonry, and would have no bearing on masonic practice except if it proved that God doesn't exist. Regular freemasonry would immediately cease to exist if that wese proven, but I guess proving that one is a toughie.

In terms of the loyalty, take a peek at a little piece of my ritual


...that my breast shall be the sacred repository of his secrets when entrusted to my care - murder, treason, felony, and all other offences contrary to the laws of God and the ordinances of the realm being at all times most especially excepted.


I think that explains quite clearly the limits of one masons expectations of another in this regard. Curiously, it is the same expectations one would have of any person in whom one may have confided.


I hope this goes some way to answering your question.



posted on Jun, 1 2006 @ 01:13 PM
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what people dont realize is that as a mason, the laws and rules of your country come first...the laws and rules of freemasonry are only adhered to if they do not in any way compromise the strict following of the laws of the country.

dr. bush's first priority would be to the rules of the govt that bound him....first and foremost. which means had he been a good citizen, no one in his lodge would have known anything in the first place.

if he had spoken...it is up to the masons to make sure his priviledged information was not leaked to anyone outside the lodge, which would have endangered mr. bush's wellbeing. but then again if leaking govt secrets broke laws the masons in his lodge would be bound to turn him in.

it gets complicated.



posted on Jun, 1 2006 @ 01:36 PM
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Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf


You thus feel that being a Mason would have nothing to do with whether or not you would share such info if you chose to do so?


No, I don't see that it would matter. I'm also an Elk and a Knight of Pythias, but I wouldn't tell those loud-mouths either.



How do you think, if such a revalation was made to a Masonic lodge, that the general practices, rites, and beliefs in Masonry would change upon such a revalation? Would it be effected at all? Would the proof of E.T. life, here and visiting earth, have any impact on Masonry?


No, I don't see how it would affect Freemasonry any. There are two Masonic authors to my knowledge who commented on alien life. The first is Foster Bailey. He and his wife Alice formed the Lucis Trust, and believed that intelligent life existed on Sirius. I recently mentioned this on another thread, and tried to explain why it was impossible for life to exist on Sirius, although it is possible that life exists somewhere in the Sirian solar system.

The second Masonic author was Albert Pike who, in Morals and Dogma, mentions that the universe is so vast, there may well be life out there somewhere.

I take Pike's view that there is at least a decent chance of life developing on another planet, since it did so here. However, I agree with the predictions of Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, which makes space travel over long distances a virtual impossibility. Therefore, even though I think that there is probably life out there somewhere, I don't believe it's ever been anywhere near us.

There is a loophole in the space travel / relativity thing, though. Although it is impossible for us to travel long distances in space via a straight line, relativity does open the possibility of being able to "warp" space by traveling through wormholes. This would allow us to connect two distant regions of space without actually having to travel through it all, and is the basis of the "warp speed" thing on Star Trek. The only problem, of course, is that the Enterprise uses dylithium crystals to initiate warp, and that's a fictional substance. It is unknown if it is possible to create an artificial wormhole, which would be needed for long-distance, navigated space travel (although explorers not navigating could just pop through a natural wormhole to see where it leads, providing they not care about ever being able to get back home).

Anyway, there is a possibility, albeit remote, that intelligent alien life has mastered artificial warp speed, and have came to earth. At the moment though, I do not feel as though there is any real evidence to support that, and believe there is probably life somewhere, but we've never contacted each other.


Also, would failing to reveal such info to your Brothers or other persons violate any Masonic oaths or duties, or would revelaing such info violate such things?


Failing to reveal it would not be in violation of any Masonic duty, but revealing it would be in violation of my duty as a hypothetical government agent entrusted with top secret information. However, my duty to mankind would override that, if the general population needed to know in case of emergence such as, for example, to plan to defend themselves from an imminent invasion.

[edit on 1-6-2006 by Masonic Light]



posted on Jun, 1 2006 @ 01:41 PM
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Thank you very much, Masonic Light, Trinityman, and yin yang. You have answered my questions wonderfully.

It has helped me gain more insight into Freemasonry and how it functions in relation to society, government, non-masons, and beliefs as a whole. Though Im sure the hardcore Masonic conspircists will still cling to their disinformation, I believe what you have helped do is shed light on one of many examples that show, at least to me, that Masons are not an exclusive secret power group that rule the world, ect.

I myself do not believe a revelation of the proof of E.T. life would disprove a supreme Being. it would simply show me not only is the Being incredibly complex and diverse, but that it has more imagination than just creating humans.

Thanks again. I have learned a bit more, which is always a good thing in my mind.



posted on Jun, 1 2006 @ 02:00 PM
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we are not the horrible people we are said to be...were just like everyone else. except we take sharing our similarities and celebrate our differences a step further, and do it together..thats all it is.

most of the time youll see me take a smartass stand, when posting in topics that come up over and over again, about how bad we are, because im tired of explaining things to the deaf. i get tired of getting persecuted for no reason.

but in questions like yours where you have a general unbiased want to know...im glad to help.



posted on Jun, 1 2006 @ 02:46 PM
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Originally posted by yin_yang
we are not the horrible people we are said to be...were just like everyone else. except we take sharing our similarities and celebrate our differences a step further, and do it together..thats all it is.

most of the time youll see me take a smartass stand, when posting in topics that come up over and over again, about how bad we are, because im tired of explaining things to the deaf. i get tired of getting persecuted for no reason.

but in questions like yours where you have a general unbiased want to know...im glad to help.


I understand. I am Wiccan, and believe me, I know what its like to be persecuted because certain people think I worship the devil or demons or some silly crap.

I used to think until a few years ago that Freemasons were an old boys group who trade stocktips and scratch each others backs, and were rich and powerful. But I have come to learn that is not true, and have even gain appreciation for Freemasonry, as the first modern day Wiccan groups, some of our rites and symbolism, were influenced and founded by former Masons, as was the case of the Golden Dawn.

I find alot of the anti-Masonic conspiraciy theories paralell and echoing the same dogma preached by Christian extremists when discussing how evil Wiccan and Paganism is.

But for some people, fiction and far out made up "facts" are far more entertaining and fulfilling than truth.



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