I remember the class we had about fratricide, having proper ID before engagement. There is even radio procedure taught for reporting possable blue on blue.

Sad truth it is more common or was that is. Today new technology and the land warrior battle mapping software reduces that. Maybe if enough foia requests were made it could get declassified before 50 years is up.

I remember those movies, and wonder about calling in fire danger close? What about intentional fratricide? Probably not very common, but it has been mentioned.

Of course, the TRUE STORY "We Were Soldiers" that stared Mel Gibson, was based on the accounts and written by Lt. Col Hal Moore. As you may remember, it was considered to be the most violent battle in U. S. History, taking place in the La Drang Valley, nicknamed the Valley Of Death, in 1965. There were several instances, when Lt. Col Moore called in barrages on his OWN POSITION because they were being overrun by NVA. If Lt. Col Moore had not done that, everyone would have surely perished. On this occasion, Fratricide was not the intent.... but SURVIVAL sure as heck was at the top of the list.

Just one opinion.

Dave

I almost got shot by one of the gate guards when I was in Saudi. I was in a missile unit, and fixed generators. Because of the hot, scorching desert sun, I usually, when cicumstances permitted, went down range after sunset to perform checks and services and perform minor or non-essential repairs. It was quite common for me to do this. Everyone on site knew the routine, including the gate guards. I often stopped by the gate post to say hello, shoot the breeze, or see if they had any problems with their light-alls.

Well, this one evening I went down range on foot with a fuel gauge and a couple of tools. I passed the guard post on my way there and was greeted with a sudden shout of "get on the f***** ground now!!!!!!!!" I was curious, as I did not think they could possibly be talking to me. I was still well within the site perimeter, and hell, everyone knew me. A shot rang out and I almost had a childish accident in my pants. I hit the deck. I heard this guard screaming and coming towards me. I did not get up. I started shouting back, hey, you #!%$#, its me, and he kept screaming to shut up and not to move a muscle. I couldnt believe what happened. He came over, turned me over with his rifle pointed in my face, and I thought, this %@#$! is gonna kill me, he has flipped out. Then he shined his light in my face, and said, oh, wait, its you. And I'm thinking, yeah, you stupid &%*#@!, who else did you think it was? He apologized. He had been on guard duty for about 60 hours straight with no sleep. I told him he should hand in his weapon and go get a nap. I took him up to the CP and told the OIC what happened. No paperwork.

We went out to see where the round went. It thankfully buried itself in a berm. Goddess knows what would have happened had the thing hit out 2000 gallon tanker or a missile launcher. However, the incident was kept hush hush. His missing round was replaced, he was sent to one of the scud bunkers to get some sleep, and no more was heard of the incident. So yeah, friendly fire does get covered up.

This is especially true when dealing with missile strikes on friendly targets. During the many training exercises that the Fire Control Personnel did, I remember our XO actually getting taken off Fire Control permananetly because every other target he was hitting was either friendly, or he shot it down before he got a proper identification. They moved him into admin work, but never reprimanded him. Admin suited him better anyway. He was a grade A brown noser. Im sure his lip marks can still be found on some of the most illustrious butts in our nations military.

But it was a common occurance during training exercises to shoot down friendly targets. Part of it had to do with the IFF in the system being crap. The other part had to do with a cowboy mentality amongst operators that they wanted to get the most kills fastest so they could score cool points, and weren't too worried about friendlies. Sure, it was only training, but isn't training supposed to reflect REAL combat situations?

Thats why I am never surprised when I hear about Patriot Missile units shooting down friendly planes. Does not surprise me at all.

Skadi....

I guarantee you.... that for every ONE of the stories that is UNCOVERED.... there are TEN that are buried with hopes that no one ever finds out.

Dave

Originally posted by Dave Rabbit
Skadi....

I guarantee you.... that for every ONE of the stories that is UNCOVERED.... there are TEN that are buried with hopes that no one ever finds out.

Dave

Believe me, I KNOW.

It never ceased to amaze me the amount of effort, time, and energy that those in charge went to cover up the most trivial and petty things. The amount of energy spent docotoring up reports or covering up something small and stupid that no one really cared about anyway could have been better spent actually trying to FIX the firggin problem and prevent it.

But the military prefers to bury....well, just about anything.

Including thousands of dollars of brand new office equipment and perfectly good repair parts. I remember that little cover-up. Someone in supply over-ordered a bunch of crap that we didn't need. Rather than do the paperwork and return it, they tossed it down the shaft of an abandoned Nike-Herc bunker. Excess and unaccounted parts too.

What some believe is going on is spooks or hired mercenaries operate within the war context to deliberately take our friendly's.

It could be used to continue the battle or take out people that know too much or saw something they shouldn't have. They could take out renegade groups etc.

Setup's for propaganda purposes etc.

Consider the film 'saving private Ryan' for example, if you can do such an op for positive purposes why cannot you do it for negative reasons? There is nothing to stop this at all.

Denythestatusquo.....

If I am understanding what you are saying correctly..... and forgive me if I am reading it wrong...... you are implying that FRIENDLY FIRE could be INTENTIONAL to HUSH or ELIMINATE one or a group that has WITNESSED something that the military and/or the government does not want found out by the general public.

IF that is what you are saying.... I don't totally disagree with the premise.... although I do have to disagree that it was the majority of "REPORTED" FRIENDLY FIRE incidents. Of the ones that I am PERSONALLY aware.... I can ASSURE you that it was NOT INTENTIONAL. That said, who knows how many WHISTLE BLOWERS were killed to SHUT THEM UP. I can easily see, from my three tours of experience, how someone might be eliminated because others did not want certain things revealed. Mei Lei would have been a perfect example of what you are suggesting IF that platoon had been wiped out by FRIENDLY FIRE. Of course, they WEREN'T.... someone DID blow the whistle.... and a YEAR LATER the world found out.

Thanks for your insightful comments.

Dave

Originally posted by denythestatusquo
What some believe is going on is spooks or hired mercenaries operate within the war context to deliberately take our friendly's.

It could be used to continue the battle or take out people that know too much or saw something they shouldn't have. They could take out renegade groups etc.

Setup's for propaganda purposes etc.

Consider the film 'saving private Ryan' for example, if you can do such an op for positive purposes why cannot you do it for negative reasons? There is nothing to stop this at all.

I'll agree with dave Rabbit on this one. The vast majority of freindly fires are either accidental or might be a personal vendetta. Like fragging an unpopular LT or something similar. Personally, I have suspected that a good number of freidnly fire deaths involving officers, especially in the ranks of Lieutenant, were not entirely accidental. Gods know how many times I've sat around with buddies and listened to them describe in vivid detail 1001 ways they would like to see Lt. So-and So die a very horrible, undignified death, and how they personally would go about seeing it done. Hell, Ive contributed my own "insights" on a few occasions. However, we never ended up killing anyone.

But I see your point, and I must admit, there were numerous rumors and stories about just such instances where someone who some believed might have seen something he shouldn't have or might open their mouth about something that needed hushing ending up a causalty of friendly fire. These rumors were interesting for the fact that some of them were pretty damn consistant in identifying the unit and the rank, sometimes even names of such victims. However, i disagree that spooks or CIA would do the killing. They don't need to. The army is full of officers who are only interested in covering their own asses or improving their career prospects. And if the potential whistle blower is not very popular amongst his fellow soldiers, it wouldn't be much for them to take care of the matter themselves. An example would be if say, a platoon of infantry went into a village and ended up torturing, raping and killing the people there. They are acting under orders from their CO, and have no real problems doing the job. However, one soul with a conscience says, f*** this, this is criminal, I'm gonna report your sorry butts for Geneva conventions violations. Well, thats not gonna make him friends, and since no one wants to face a court martial, it would be nothing to take are of the problem and later explain to inveatigators, "hey, it was an accident, he was walking at a distance, I havent slept, and i thought he was one of THEM, so I fired, and only to my horror later did I discover it was pvt. so and so". So yeah, there are cases of freindly fire where someone is blown away to cover up something. It works the other way. Self Policing. Say, a couple of guys in the unit decided against orders to go rape and kill villagers. The unit, not wanting to bring bad attention and publicity will blow the guys away themselves to take care of unstable elements. It has happened.

However, the vast majority of friendly fire cases really are accidents. Its usually due to either fatigue and lack of sleep, battle nerves and jitters, improper identification, malfunction of IFF (identification Friend or Foe) equipment, ect. The last thing the majority of soldiers would ever want to do is kill one of their own, and believe me, the trauma, stress, guilt, and shame that a soldier who has killed a friendly is very real and devatstating.

There is one instance, however, in this current Iraq fiasco that makes me think perhaps that the military and even spooks might have been involved in eliminating some problems is the case of Jessica Lynch's rescuers. Remember Jessica Lynch? Well, it is very interesting to note that that team of guys who "liberated" her from the Iraqi hospital have one of the highest mortality rates in the military. In fact, I think damn near all of em are dead now. A couple were killed at home while on leave in "random violence" acts. A couple others were killed in combat, and one was reported to have committed suicide. Im not sure, but i think they all might, or at least almost all of them might, be dead now.

Now there is something that makes you go Huh?

Remember Jessica Lynch? Well, it is very interesting to note that that team of guys who "liberated" her from the Iraqi hospital have one of the highest mortality rates in the military. In fact, I think damn near all of em are dead now. A couple were killed at home while on leave in "random violence" acts. A couple others were killed in combat, and one was reported to have committed suicide. I'm not sure, but i think they all might, or at least almost all of them might, be dead now.

Now there is something that makes you go Huh?

Damn... I didn't know that. Can you post something where myself and others can read up on this...... this is amazing.

Dave

Do some google work on international bankers/finance and wars or efforts to control wars. It is believed that they run operations in order to lengthen conflicts and I've seen a number of articles by researchers claiming this very thing.

For example: Bankers in London were rumoured to used connections in English government to order certain military moves that were said to be blunders that helped Nazi's but let war go on longer...

then there is the question of why the US didn't march into Stalingrad at end of WWII?

Interesting subject and one that is not well known yet even amongst conspiracy crowd.

Great Stuff

Thanks....

Dave

Thank you Dave Rabbit for making this thread, I believe it does need to be out in the open so younger generations know what they are signing up for.

Heck, I lost 3 tracks to friendly fire, and only one to enemy action....(cav scout) got shot at by both sides all the time... LOL