vegetarians vs flesh eaters.

I am a vegetarian, I have been for about 5+ years, But before that I never really ate meat anyway. I believe it is wrong for people to try and force their beliefs on others.
I know killing other animals for food has been around since the dawn of time but its just not for me.

kill 'em, eat 'em, and wear 'em. use every part of the animal, respect it, but kill it just the same.

i've pretty much only dated vegetarians for years, so i know the entire argument. the fun thing to do is bring up the scienetific proof that plants scream when you kill them when a 'preacher' comes along.

I eat everything. Besides, the animals I eat I didn't kill right? And if nobody eats the meat, then that animal died for no reason. Gotta eat your vegetables, too, young man.

Complicated subject.

No matter what you eat or don't eat, you're going to kill animals. Farming reduces available habitat and starves animals to death, and unlike meat-eating, it actually reduces the numbers of wild species not just kills individuals. So any vegetarian who thinks that's the way to avoid killing animals is fooling himself.

On the other hand . . .

Americans eat way too much meat. It's environmentally sinful (since meat takes up more land and resources than growing plant food), and it's not healthy. The diet for which we evolved, the one our ancestors ate when they were foragers/hunters, involved a wide variety of foods, whatever the land offered, not as much meat as Americans eat today but definitely some, and the meat was leaner, too.

Also . . .

The way that meat is raised (also eggs and dairy) is horribly inhumane in most agriculture. There are exceptions. You can buy eggs, dairy, and meat from uncaged chickens, and from pigs and cattle raised humanely. It's more expensive, but to me, definitely worth it.

Other than avoiding the factory-raised stuff, I've never been a vegetarian for animal-rights reasons. I have at times been one for health reasons and for environmental reasons, and I still eat a lot less meat than most Americans.

Originally posted by Russian soldier
Besides, the animals I eat I didn't kill right? And if nobody eats the meat, then that animal died for no reason.

The less meat that the shops sell, the less animals would be killed afterwards So in a way that animal was killed for you.

I'm a vegetarian and have been for years and years, I'd never go back.

I've seen how the poor souls are killed and nobody deserves that - especially not defenceless animals. It's murder.

^^ What a load of hypocritical crap!!
Oh its so bad that you kill poor defenseless stary eyed bunnies but its okay to "raise" vegetation only so that they can be killed and people can feed on them ? Thats okay isnt it ?

Plants, more over non-locomotive so they cant even try to escape when the so called 'purveyors of life' decide to gut them for a feast. How is that any better ?
Just because you hear an animal scream, bleed and its entrails turned inside out people want to save "life" suddenly, hypocrisy!
It might come as a shock to all those PETA activists and those contemptuous veggies that Plants feel pain too, they cant cry out but its killing "innocent" lives also........
Scientists Prove Plants Feel Pain

What next? Eat only those fruit that have fallen down from the tree or have already died, isnt that what vultures do ?

Killing is Killing! Get over it!

I on the other hand dont mind if the animal scream/shreiks/begs etc, if its to be eaten its eaten, no qualms what so ever and no double standards too. I will eat anything as long as I dont feel repulsed by it( Eg:squid).

PS: crookedblue I dont direct this verbiage to you specifically but I mean it more as a general message to all the those who try to pass their judgement in ignorance on others.


[edit on 9-6-2006 by IAF101]

IAF101:

That link you provided... I wouldn't put much faith in it.

"This is bad for us. Most of our members haven't eaten anything since hearing about the results. Our lawyers are looking into suing Mother Earth for false advertising, but concede that the suit will probably be inconclusive. In the meantime we'll be surviving on vitamin supplements and water."

Suing Mother Earth? A restaraunt named the "Hungry Carnivore"? Surviving on vitamins and water?
Sounds like something The Onion would cook up. *cough* satire *cough*

Plants may indeed feel pain, but I doubt it. They don't have a brain, they don't have a nervous system. If there's any chemical reaction associated with a plant wound or some such... it's likely a survival mechanism created by mother nature.

Originally posted by IAF101
^^ What a load of hypocritical crap!!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PS: crookedblue I dont direct this verbiage to you specifically but I mean it more as a general message to all the those who try to pass their judgement in ignorance on others.

I was not trying to pass my judgement. I was merely saying what I thought on the subject. At no time did I try and encourage anybody else to stop eating meat.

If you mean this

Originally posted by crookedblue
The less meat that the shops sell, the less animals would be killed afterwards

So in a way that animal was killed for you.

I was just saying the truth, I did not try to encourage him to not eat meat. It's peoples own choice wether they do or not.


Oh and I'd appreciate you not calling my opinion 'a load of hypocritical crap'


Blue.

Originally posted by Kruel
IAF101:

That link you provided... I wouldn't put much faith in it.
Suing Mother Earth? A restaraunt named the "Hungry Carnivore"? Surviving on vitamins and water?

kruel,
You dont understand my intentions. It is meant as sarcasm, a jab at the PETA/Vegans that dish out condescension for their "ever so caring" pseudo-ethical attitude. I was at no point trying to educate anybody with that as it is common knowledge that plants indeed do respond to pain thought they are not aware of it in the emotional context as you would consider from a dog or a cat etc.

Apparently, I have taken undue liberty in assuming that people are aware of this fact. As mentioned above, pain in higher beings is of two types- the physiological and the emotional. It is the physiological context that primarily allows beings to survive adverse environmental and mechanical distress on their bodies while the emotional component plays a higher role in promoting learning, awareness, adapting etc.

When in distress, plants tend to produce Jasmonic Acid which basically acts something like the hormones in our body when they react to pain by causing swelling and produces a response that seeks to counter the threat and warn of harm. Not only have scientists been able to establish this fact ( though many people refuse to believe this) they have also found that Aspirin does in fact reduce the release of this acid just like in humans.

www.msu.edu...
Jasmonic acid is a hormone secreted by a plant when it is attacked. “It works a little like a shot of pain,” says Dr. Ralph Backhaus of the University of Arizona (1998). Using Aspirin on plants inhibits this signal in the same way it does in animals. Aspirin binds to the enzyme that produces jasmonic acid, rendering it inactive (Backhaus, 1998).

As for the case of a nervous system, you are absolutely correct in saying that they have no nervous system but they do posses nerve fibers and nerve cells just not as complex and as clearly defined as one would come to expect in animals. The plant reacts to harm and though it may not feel it in the way we as humans do it does react to it in a more primitive state. Pain is a warning tool in animals and does the same function in plants by gathering its chemical defenses. Consider the touch-me-not plant for example, how can we consider the autonomous response without some sort of signaling mechanism. This signaling mechanism need not necessarily be one that has clearly defined axons, dendrites etc as we would expect but could work just the same with different action potentials.
NYT: Plants found to send signals

Other References:
www.sciencedaily.com...
www.bio.net...
www.bio.net...
cohesion.rice.edu...


[edit on 9-6-2006 by IAF101]

Originally posted by crookedblue
If you mean this:
.............
I was just saying the truth, I did not try to encourage him to not eat meat.

Well actually its a combination of that statement and this:

I've seen how the poor souls are killed and nobody deserves that - especially not defenceless animals. It's murder.

Say them together and you are sending out a "message".

Oh and I'd appreciate you not calling my opinion 'a load of hypocritical crap'

If you are truly offended by my opinion about yours then I sincerely apologize.

IAF

Originally posted by Nerve_Agents
I am a vegetarian, I have been for about 5+ years, But before that I never really ate meat anyway. I believe it is wrong for people to try and force their beliefs on others.
I know killing other animals for food has been around since the dawn of time but its just not for me.

This gets my vote for the best response of a vegetarian here including the poster which I understand is trying to take both sides (sort of with a heavy slant on the negative towards meet eaters or flesher eaters as they more eleqently put it.)

I have a huge BBQ party 3 times a summer and I (a hard core meat lover) always has a vegeterian meal ready (good one too) to go for those who don't eat meat. The only complaint I have ever had is the vegeterians trying to ruin everyone else time and meals. Grow-up vegeterians this is a fight you can not win. But, fortunatly you can become vegeterians yourself and not have to eat meat. So please back-off on peoples choices. I understand there are many people who can be very healthy and happy not eating meat. But, also understand that forcing your views on other people can also be harmful. I lost a cousin to this because her friends were vegeterians and told her she had to become one (yes everyone has there own choice, but some are easily influenced) Anyways she died last summer because she weighed about 74 lbs her body shut down. Not saying because of the fact she became a vegeterian but maybe becasue she stopped eating anything she thought could have had feelings. There were more issues than just that in her life but when you try to force people to change some may not no how and my cousin is not the only causualty.
Now if there were more vegetarians like Nerve_Agent. That respect others choices and decision. There probably wouldn't be some much hostitley towards meat eaters and vegeterians.

You don't meat! That's awsome I hate going to butcher when they are sold out of what I want. But, thats your choice don't tell me I'm wrong and I won't tell you that you are aswell. There is more to meat than taste!

Originally posted by IAF101

Originally posted by crookedblue
If you mean this:
.............
I was just saying the truth, I did not try to encourage him to not eat meat.

Well actually its a combination of that statement and this:

I've seen how the poor souls are killed and nobody deserves that - especially not defenceless animals. It's murder.

Say them together and you are sending out a "message".

Im not - I am saying I Do not agree in the way which they are killed. Not 'Oh everybody stop eating meat'

Yes - I think it is murder, But I stress again, this is my personal opinion. In no way shape or form am I trying to get people to stop eating meat. It is there own choice.

*grumblegrumble*


this thread made me so hungry





































you'll never get my delicious guts!

You do realize that all the plant food for livestock is actually harder on the environment than if it were only for the human population....livestock eat -A LOT- more plant food than people. Simple logic.

Its hard for the environment to sustains humans, maybe we should all stop having babies.......

THAT is the real answer, not eating grass!

I'm an omnivore, i eat everything & anything that doesent repulse me.

My thoughts, I eat meat and vegetables, fruit, plants and etc. I also have a bit of native-american in me, the way i see it is they (like many other cultures) did it for quite some time, so its pretty much natural in my opinion. I dont particularly like hunting, but if theyre humane (Hunt it the way we used to do) and cook the meat and eat it, fine by me. I think the whole vegetable/plant pain thing is ridiculous, animals eat plants too, so im going to eat them to, fine by me aswell.

I dont have anything against vegans/vegetarians either, but i cant stand it when people try to convert you. I honestly think you need a balanced diet/meal daily if to feel good, you cant just eat one thing and leave out the rest, its like taking the food pyramid and removing four or five blocks because you dont want to eat plants/dairy/meat. I believe its perfectly natural to eat meat or vegetables.

I love animals though, i have four birds, three dogs, and a guinea pig, and dont take kindly to inhumane acts against animals (in this case, treated bad before theyre life is ended for food.) I think its also probably better to have homegrown vegetables, they taste wonderful, and homeraised chickens and cows for milk and eggs is likely better than buying it.

That wouldnt stop me from buying things from the grocery store though, i would not deny a potato chip because i didnt make it at home myself (although it would probably be healthier.)

I eat this stuff too =D.

[edit on 6/12/2006 by Foxtrot23]

After I had been living with a Buddhist Vegan for 2 years, we found a nutrition book that we liked a lot:

Eat Right For Your Type, by Peter J. D'Adamo. 1996 Publisher is - Putnam

This book on the implications of human blood type for improving your health was on the New York Times bestseller list for two years, probably because it was the first nutrition book to provide research results which actually supported the claims made. As D'Adamo notes, human blood typing (as in O, A, B, and AB) was discovered rather recently, during the first years of the 20th century.

I didn't know my blood type, but the index in the back of the book referred me to a company that sent me a self-test kit for about $8 or $9. Nowadays they are online, in case some BTS readers and their families would also like to find out their blood type:

www.dadamo.com...

It turned out that I am blood type A, which D'Adamo describes as the "natural vegetarian". So I decided to try the vegan approach. I still take calcium supplements twice a day, and a multivitamin plus bilberry (which contains the same purple chemicals as the visual purple in the human eye, and has really improved my night vision).

So far it feels really good. Favorite cookbooks that have immeasurably helped include:

The Great American Detox Diet by Alex Jamieson 2005

Fresh from the Vegetarian Slow Cooker by Robin Robertson 2004

The Book of Tempeh by William Shurtleff and Akiko Aoyagi 2nd ed., 2001
I also use their other books: The Book of Miso Vol. 1, 2001, and The Book of Tofu, 1979


Follow Your Heart Cookbook, by Janice Cook Knight, 2005

New Recipes from Moosewood Restaurant, by the Moosewood Collective, 1987

The McDougall Plan, by John A. McDougall, MD, 1983

Japanese Women Don't Get Old or Fat, by Naomi Moriyama, 2005

Originally posted by laiguana
You do realize that all the plant food for livestock is actually harder on the environment than if it were only for the human population....livestock eat -A LOT- more plant food than people. Simple logic.

Sure. But if you live on the American plains, the only vegetable matter is grass.

Most cattle, although finished on grain/silage at the feedlot, spend most of their lives eating grass which is otherwise indigestable to humans.

I like my meat to have some marbling, but cattle fed only on grain tend to be very poor burgers and steaks.

Most people that don't hunt have never considered the economic standpoint. For a $30 license, plus a box of ammo I saved from last year, I can put a couple of hundred pounds of venison in my freezer for the family. Frau Dr. added up all the costs (I had the meat professionally dressed this year) and it came to about $1.20 a pound, when turned into burger and link sausage. That is SERIOUSLY cheaper than store-bought food.

Couple that with the garden, and you've got a seriously economical way to feed your clan/tribe.

Trouble is, this year has been way too hot and dry. I've been away for a couple of weeks, and my garden looks like ****. Won't be getting much this year. The green beens have been wiped out by grasshoppers already. . . .

.

Really good posts thus far, i must say.

so, correct me if i'm wrong here - but what i'm getting from some of the flesh eater group so far is that basicly, even though its proven that you don't actually "need" meat to survive, because you enjoy it, because it tastes good, you are willing to have animals killed slaughtered and butchered to satisfy you when you're hungry. Is that a fair summary?

again, I'm not debating how i feel, just trying to get a sense for the thought process here so far.

be good.

I'm also an omnivore, and just simply ignore those people that attempt to make me feel guilty about it, because luckily I've been free of them largely since leaving college. While in college though, I remember taking a girl to Fuddrucker's on a first date after a movie, having no idea that she was a vegetarian. For those of you unfamiliar with the chain, it is an excellent hamburger place, and upon entering you can see through glass near the entrance the freezer complete with the huge, glorious slabs of meet hanging from the ceiling on hooks. Needless to say, that was an awkward evening (she insisted we could stay and eat there... hrmm, probably shouldn't have agreed )

I also think about what the rangers in the Everglades tell all the guests - that the American Alligator would be extinct if people didn't eat them. The alligator farms that breed alligators for meat and fashion also are required to release a number of them into the wild (when their numbers dwindle.) I'm sure this is just one example of such an animal. Alligator is mighty fine eating, too!