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More than 60 children reportedly held at Guantanamo Bay

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posted on May, 30 2006 @ 05:28 AM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23
If we have “no idea” how do you know about them? Where is the evidence that allows you to make these claims? Please now, extraordinary claims require strong evidence, so don't give me you expected and usual lingo. And did you miss the EU’s report on these infamous prisons in Europe and “elsewhere”? Besides, what entitles you to know what goes on in these alleged prisons?

Good point. We don't know. But are you so sure that there ARE NOT ANY? I am not. There have been several news reports about that topic - ofcourse you will deny all of them. And ofcourse the good European "Allies" will also deny all of them. And most of all, ofcourse the DoD will deny all of them. We can't have yet ANOTHER scandal, do we?

But here are these reports anyway - so you don't get bored:

CIA Holds Terror Suspects in Secret Prisons
Secret world of US jails
Report: CIA operates secret prisons
CIA Operates Secret Prison Network
The CIA Secret Prisons Leak
The CIA’s secret prisons

And some ATS threads:
US Denies Mini-Guantanamo in Kosovo
CIA Holds Terror Suspects in Secret "Black Site" Prisons

Ofcourse you will DENY all of those yes?
Not DENY Ignorance yes?

And just for Your and "Some Other Members" info:
Google Search for these keywords - 10.500.000 hits for cia secret prisons.

Interesting, no?





Let me clarify that this is not a civil issue, its not a law enforcement issue, its a military one, as such, rules and laws are different. People who are captured on the battlefield are not usually given a trial right away, nor are they treated as civilians, they are treated as soldiers, as such they are detained until the war/conflict is over. Then we either let them go, or try them. Since we are still fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq, I think these guys are right were they should be. And when Al-Qaeda surrenders come let me know, k?

Oh I see - the RULES are different; or you kind of wanted to say, that there is only one rule left: THERE IS NO RULES (or LAW)! Well I see I am wasting my time and all the written words, since your mind is already made-up. You keep beliving that ther are Hard-Core-Well-Trained Terrorists in Guantanamo - I certainly don't. Maybe there are 10, or 12 - but Certainly not 500!

Yes it is war - yet no side is following the rules of War or the rules of Human rights, which means that ALL SIDES ARE EQUALLY WRONG! So please, stop hiding behing that veil of Democracy, Liberty and Justice for all, since there is none of that in action in this alleged "War on Terror".

And when USA will start acting like a true Civilized and Democratic, which follows all the international laws, conventions and basic human rights - then You let me know mmmmkey?



One more thing, if they are not US citizens then they do not get the same rights as me.

I bet that's what the German Nazi soldiers used to tell themselves when they stormed some Russian village - if they are not Germans, they do not get the same rights as we, since they are a bunch of commie-jew-terrorists.

Think about it...

So basicly your post is saying: "OK FOR CHILDREN TORTURE!", right?




posted on May, 30 2006 @ 08:24 AM
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Originally posted by Souljah
Several Others?


Yes several others



Ex-Gitmo detainees return to terror
At least seven former prisoners of the United States at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, have returned to terrorism, despite gaining their freedom by signing pledges to renounce violence.
At least two are believed to have died in fighting in Afghanistan, and a third was recaptured during a raid on a suspected training camp in Afghanistan, said Lt. Cmdr. Flex Plexico, a Pentagon


Please visit the link provided for the complete story.





You mean those innocent ones, that were captured in their field, taking care of the crops?


How do you know this is fact and not fiction? Just because someone alleges they were captured in a field does not mean that is a true fact. Remember what their training manual states 'YOU MUST LIE'.



And how do YOU Know that they are this terrorists, that will start killing Americans the second they come out?


See above news quote above.



THEY ARE ONLY IN IT FOR THE MONEY!

You HAVE to be KIDDING!


No I am not kidding. If you do not believe me, look up the financial history of activists groups, Like the ACLU, PETA, etc., and you will find most if not all CEOS receive salaries in the six figures. You will also find they are not what they claim to be. PETA says they are for animal rights when effect that is an outright lie, several of their members have been convicted for killing animals. They also are known to fund the likes of ALF who are known and convicted arsonists.

As for the ACLU they advocate that they are defending our constitution which in reality is not true. A recent article in the New York Times did a pretty good job of exposing their lies about defending free speech when in reality they were discouraging its board members from publicly criticizing the organization's policies and internal administration. So much for their supporting free speech huh? In addition, let us not forget how they threaten lawsuits over the first amendment when again they are only in it for the money. You may not think it yourself, but Amnesty International is no different then the two examples I used above, They are all the same, they say one thing and do another in addition too squandering their funds on their CEOs.



OK, let me Enlighten you once again:


About Amnesty International


A mission statement always looks good on paper that will not change the fact that they squander their money will it?

Usa tax retrun for Amnesty international

And that is just for the US, imagine what it is for the rest of the world.




But seriously - you have created a very nice diversion.


Hardly a diversion when someone tells the truth about organizations like American Amnesty International or the one used in the source article of the thread when they all are nothing but liars. Now you may think it was a diversion but that is not true at all, when debating one has to address the creditability of the source do they not? I will see if I can find the tax return for the original group in the source and I am willing to bet their CEO also makes a quarter of a million or more
I am also willing to bet they like others take in more then they actually give out






[edit on 5/30/2006 by shots]



posted on May, 30 2006 @ 10:02 AM
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Originally posted by shots
Yes several others

And you know that, because you work in the US Military Intel?



How do you know this is fact and not fiction? Just because someone alleges they were captured in a field does not mean that is a true fact. Remember what their training manual states 'YOU MUST LIE'.

Exactly!
And how do you know that several released detainees are killing Americans as we speak?



No I am not kidding. If you do not believe me, look up the financial history of activists groups, Like the ACLU, PETA, etc., and you will find most if not all CEOS receive salaries in the six figures. You will also find they are not what they claim to be. PETA says they are for animal rights when effect that is an outright lie, several of their members have been convicted for killing animals. They also are known to fund the likes of ALF who are known and convicted arsonists.

So you are comparing ACLU "Excellent" income to the immense numbers of Warprofiteers, which actually DO profit from this alleged War on Terrorism?

Yep - sure is Comparable.



As for the ACLU they advocate that they are defending our constitution which in reality is not true. A recent article in the New York Times did a pretty good job of exposing their lies about defending free speech when in reality they were discouraging its board members from publicly criticizing the organization's policies and internal administration. So much for their supporting free speech huh? In addition, let us not forget how they threaten lawsuits over the first amendment when again they are only in it for the money. You may not think it yourself, but Amnesty International is no different then the two examples I used above, They are all the same, they say one thing and do another in addition too squandering their funds on their CEOs.

I strongly suggest the following sites:

Warprofiteers
Corpowatch

Wanna compare the salaries to the CEO's of the Corporations menitoned there to the ones you are trying to use as your argument?

Well you have derailled this debate once again;

Hey, what about those Kids in Gitmo?



A mission statement always looks good on paper that will not change the fact that they squander their money will it?

Diversion Attempt number 13.



Hardly a diversion when someone tells the truth about organizations like American Amnesty International or the one used in the source article of the thread when they all are nothing but liars. Now you may think it was a diversion but that is not true at all, when debating one has to address the creditability of the source do they not? I will see if I can find the tax return for the original group in the source and I am willing to bet their CEO also makes a quarter of a million or more
I am also willing to bet they like others take in more then they actually give out


To you everyone is a Liar if he openly speaks against the Bush administration.

I hardly call the "Denying the Ignorance".

And while we are Diverting the topic, let me exercise some of my own:


Halliburton Fact Sheet

Halliburton has earned over $3.9 billion in government contracts in 2003 alone

This includes combating oil fires and fix oil pipelines: $710 million; support for invading army: $820 million; housing and transportation for troops in Kuwait: $289 million; housing and transportation for troops in Jordan: $40 million; housing and transportation for teams searching for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq: $40 million.


Other Halliburton Contracts

Camp Bondsteel and Camp Monteith in Kosovo: $829.2 million
… Eagle Base and Camp McGovern in Bosnia/Herzegovinia: $695.2 million
… Taszar air base in Hungary: $287.7 million
… Incirlik Airbase in Turkey: $100 million
… Bagram and Kandahar Airbase in Afghanistan: $52.2 million
… Camp Able Century in Macedonia: $30.5 million
… Camp Lemonier in Djibouti: $28 million
… Training mission in Georgia: $25.1 million
… Camp Stronghold Freedom in Uzbekistan: $22.1 million


US Vice-President Dick Cheney, Halliburton's Former CEO

In 2001 and 2002 Cheney earned twice as much in deferred salary from Halliburton from his previous job as chief executive officer of Halliburton -- $183,000 each year.

He also owns 433,000 unexercised Halliburton stock options at the end of 2002, worth more than $10 million dollars.


Halliburton's Pre- and Post- Iraq War Profits

Halliburton's net profit for the second quarter of 2003: $26 million
Halliburton net loss the second quarter of 2002: $498 million

Hardly comparable to the ACLU, dontchathink?

But they are just small fishies swimming in the Ocean.

The Global Elite are Running the show - and they are Surely getting BIG MONEY out of this War on Terrorism.

And I am sure they are very concerned about Children being held in Gitmos too.




posted on May, 30 2006 @ 10:30 AM
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Way I see it islamic nations have been quite happy to send kids to their death in the name of allah.
Remember the Iranians and their superior tactics that got them instant victory against Saddams Iraq?.....Of course not in 8 years of war with allah on their side they could not achieve victory, even with that amazing weapon of sacrificing kids. I Dont mean on an altar but by marching them into battle in waves against machine guns armed with the koran and a key to heaven. Fodder to protect their "cracke(ed?)" troops.

Let alone the numerous "freedom" fighting factions training them to look innocent and smile while their bigger arab brothers snipe and bomb you will your off your guard.

Some islamic morality exists but not so with children IMHO. Some islamic states have the lowest age of consent. Allah himself took a bride that was 8/9 y.o. when he took/knew her. A situation that would get him a severe kicking round where I live and a prison sentence...if he made it to jail


We also see thoughout the world kids with AK47s. Whether a kid is a marksman and can or cannot hold that weapon for sustained fire is not the point. If an AK47 was in his (or her) hands and they were to raise or lower it in my direction I would drop them with no hesitation. Its not their fault you say its those that teach them. I would agree. But you cant get to the ones teaching them...they are hiding behind the kids, brave men that they are.

I doubt if you could really re-educate these kids. What do you do? I mean beng held by the infidel for doing allahs good deeds will only exasperate things wont it. Get any intel you can from them and send them to hell where they belong, I say. Top 'em I say. They're be happy, they will think they will be with allah and I will be happy because thats one less evil doer. Makes the world safer I reckon.



posted on May, 30 2006 @ 10:40 AM
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So you think JUST Islamic Nations give Kids guns?

How wrong you are.

Check this images out:

















I think they speak pretty much for themselves.



posted on May, 30 2006 @ 11:37 AM
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Originally posted by Souljah
And you know that, because you work in the US Military Intel?


What do you have a problem clicking the link and reading the article? I furnished the proof live with it



Exactly!
And how do you know that several released detainees are killing Americans as we speak?


Again I posted the proof see my previous post



So you are comparing ACLU "Excellent" income to the immense numbers of Warprofiteers, which actually DO profit from this alleged War on Terrorism?


No I am not comparing them I used them as examples of other attorneys for human rights who file lawsuits similar to the ones Smith has filed. Smith is a Lawyer you know or didn't you know that?


Well you have derailled this debate once again;


Hmmm no that would be you that is derailing the topic not me. I was not the one who brought up Bush, Haliburton etc which all have nothing to do with the topic at hand. I am dealing with the credibility of Smith and the groups he is aligned with on behalf of the prisoners held in GITMO. He is the one who made the accusation about how many children are held there thus relevant to the discussion at hand, so kindly refrain from bringing up Bush Haliburton etc.



To you everyone is a Liar if he openly speaks against the Bush administration.


Note again I had to snip your attempt at taking this off topic off on non relevant issues.


This topic has nothing to do with any of them neither does war profiteering so leave them out and respect DGs Topic which is how many children are in GITMO and how creditable is the attorney who made the claim.



posted on May, 30 2006 @ 11:43 AM
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Originally posted by Souljah
So you think JUST Islamic Nations give Kids guns?
I think they speak pretty much for themselves.


There is a big differance though Souljah those kids are not pointing them at military forces or innocient civilians.

Yet another attempt to derail a good topic you should be ashamed of your actions :shk:



posted on May, 30 2006 @ 11:53 AM
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Originally posted by shots

Originally posted by Souljah
So you think JUST Islamic Nations give Kids guns?
I think they speak pretty much for themselves.


There is a big differance though Souljah those kids are not pointing them at military forces or innocient civilians.

Yet another attempt to derail a good topic you should be ashamed of your actions :shk:



He should be ashamed?

YOU should be ashamed for supporting the detainment of children at a torture camp. Supporting solitary confinement (if they're lucky) of kids...I wish this site wasn't so strict on slamming other members...




posted on May, 30 2006 @ 12:10 PM
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Originally posted by truthseeka
YOU should be ashamed for supporting the detainment of children at a torture camp. Supporting solitary confinement (if they're lucky) of kids...I wish this site wasn't so strict on slamming other members...



I am not the one who recruited them. That would be the Taliban etc or whatever organization they were/are that recruited them.. Also no one has proven children were tortured, all that has been done is several have made allegations that they have been tortured. also remember that minimum age for enlistment in many countries is age 15 therefore they would be subject to the same conditions as any other combatant.

When in doubt; always remember the Al qaeda handbook states all prisoners must lie and they must claim they have been tortured



The latest research on child soldiers estimates that more than 300,000 children under 18 years old are fighting in armed conflicts around the world. Although existing international law allows the recruitment of children as young as fifteen, there is a growing movement to raise the minimum age to eighteen.
Source


Now just for an additional example allow me to furnish proof that this is not only done by the US alone (the detention of children that is)


West African peacekeepers said Friday that former fighters in Sierra Leone's 8-year civil war released more than 400 child soldiers ages 7 to 18 this week.
CNN,com








[edit on 5/30/2006 by shots]



posted on May, 30 2006 @ 01:17 PM
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Originally posted by shots
What do you have a problem clicking the link and reading the article? I furnished the proof live with it

PROOF? So an article is PROOF now? Oh I see - so I will know in advance.



No I am not comparing them I used them as examples of other attorneys for human rights who file lawsuits similar to the ones Smith has filed. Smith is a Lawyer you know or didn't you know that?

Again we are going far, Far away from the Topic of this thread.

Diversion number 14.



Hmmm no that would be you that is derailing the topic not me. I was not the one who brought up Bush, Haliburton etc which all have nothing to do with the topic at hand. I am dealing with the credibility of Smith and the groups he is aligned with on behalf of the prisoners held in GITMO. He is the one who made the accusation about how many children are held there thus relevant to the discussion at hand, so kindly refrain from bringing up Bush Haliburton etc.

Oh, so you can involve in this debate your "Proof" of Amnesty International being "In It For The Money" - and I can not mention the names like Bush or Cheney (Halliburton), which are actually RESPONSIBLE for this War on Terror-ism?





This topic has nothing to do with any of them neither does war profiteering so leave them out and respect DGs Topic which is how many children are in GITMO and how creditable is the attorney who made the claim.

And this topic has very little to do with your accusations of Amnesty International - in fact you just brought that up so you can somehow "discredit" their information that they provide, and since they speak openly against Bush&Co and their alleged "War on Terror".

Still you have little Compassion for the Children being held there.

Well you are just showing your True Agenda.

Carry on.




posted on May, 30 2006 @ 01:20 PM
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Originally posted by shots
There is a big differance though Souljah those kids are not pointing them at military forces or innocient civilians.

Here is a Hint:

Columbine High School massacre

The Columbine High School massacre occurred on Tuesday, April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School in unincorporated Jefferson County, Colorado, near Denver and Littleton. Two teenage students, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, carried out a shooting rampage, killing 12 fellow students and a teacher, as well as wounding 24 others, before committing suicide. It is considered to be the deadliest school shooting, and the second deadliest attack on a school in United States history after the Bath School disaster.

And their country is not even Invaded by a foreign Occupying Army.



Yet another attempt to derail a good topic you should be ashamed of your actions :shk:

I am not Ashamed of Anything I speak of here.



posted on May, 30 2006 @ 01:32 PM
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Originally posted by Souljah

Originally posted by shots
What do you have a problem clicking the link and reading the article? I furnished the proof live with it

PROOF? So an article is PROOF now? Oh I see - so I will know in advance.



No I am not comparing them I used them as examples of other attorneys for human rights who file lawsuits similar to the ones Smith has filed. Smith is a Lawyer you know or didn't you know that?

Again we are going far, Far away from the Topic of this thread.

Diversion number 14.



Diversion my butt it is not me that brought Amnesty Internation into the thread, It is not me that brought Haliburton, Bush into the thread, that was you so stop blaming me for something YOU did OK?

You know I doubt there is one thread on this board other then your own that is that you have not disrupted, so I again ask you kindly to stick with the topic at hand.

Also do you have anything in writing that disputes the source I gave for the return of combatants in Afghanistan? You are the one doubting the news report not me so prove it is wrong.



[edit on 5/30/2006 by shots]



posted on May, 30 2006 @ 03:27 PM
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Originally posted by shots
Diversion my butt it is not me that brought Amnesty Internation into the thread, It is not me that brought Haliburton, Bush into the thread, that was you so stop blaming me for something YOU did OK?

I will pass on "Diverting your Butt" -
But your argument against Amnesty is that they are "IN IT FOR THE MONEY", right?

So I guess you do not take any of their reports for real, is that so?

Just some Anti-War Activism crap, ey?

I was mentioning Amnesty, since they have got alot of research and alot of their time involved in Violations of Human Rights, that the alleged "War on Terror" creates. And that SURE has ALOT to do with this thread, since we are debating the Basic Human Rights of Children being held as Prisoners of War.



You know I doubt there is one thread on this board other then your own that is that you have not disrupted, so I again ask you kindly to stick with the topic at hand.

Exuse me? Your first reaction and your first Post to this story was, how the Numbers are "Overreacted" and how some "Activists" and Lawyers do not carry any weight in this matter - you immediatly diverted the topic of this thread and ignored the real question which is; WHAT ARE THE RIGHTS OF THE CHILDREN BEING HELD IN GUANTANAMO?

For you - they do not have any right, am I correct?

So that we know, where you stand.



Also do you have anything in writing that disputes the source I gave for the return of combatants in Afghanistan? You are the one doubting the news report not me so prove it is wrong.

I doubt those reports, just as you doubt mine.



posted on May, 30 2006 @ 04:12 PM
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Originally posted by Souljah

I will pass on "Diverting your Butt" -



Your appology is accepted



But your argument against Amnesty is that they are "IN IT FOR THE MONEY", right?

So I guess you do not take any of their reports for real, is that so?


Stop putting words in my mouth.




WHAT ARE THE RIGHTS OF THE CHILDREN BEING HELD IN GUANTANAMO?


Wrong again The discussion is on how many children are in GITMO
read the thread title again

More than 60 children reportedly held at Guantanamo Bay


Oh My god did I read that right? it has no mention of Childrens rights! Imagine that




I doubt those reports, just as you doubt mine.


Well if that is going to be the case then how will you back up your stories? You do realize that everyone on ATS Uses 3rd party material sources don't you? Based on our faulty logic; all of ATS better get ready to shutdown because no one will have any sources yes that includes even you.


Soujah edited to add this do yourself a favor an reread the whole thread post bye post, then get back to me and tell me who mentioned Childrens rights first OK


[edit on 5/30/2006 by shots]



posted on May, 30 2006 @ 06:09 PM
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Shots,

I'm glad that you flat out refused to say you don't condone this treatment against children. It shows me how far gone you neo-cons are.

Nice to see you share the sentiments of John Yoo...



posted on May, 30 2006 @ 06:49 PM
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Originally posted by truthseeka
Shots,

I'm glad that you flat out refused to say you don't condone this treatment against children. It shows me how far gone you neo-cons are.

Nice to see you share the sentiments of John Yoo...


I do not share the sentiments of anyone I want to make that clear. I am simply stating a fact of life. Thousands of childred are being held all over the world by more then just the US and no one knows what kind of treatment they are receiving.




posted on May, 30 2006 @ 06:57 PM
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Originally posted by shots
I do not share the sentiments of anyone I want to make that clear. I am simply stating a fact of life. Thousands of childred are being held all over the world by more then just the US and no one knows what kind of treatment they are receiving.



If you find that as the best out you can possibly get, then your arguments are going slightly downhill. So because other countries possibly do it, we are ok by doing the same? Clarify please.



posted on May, 30 2006 @ 07:11 PM
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Originally posted by niteboy82
If you find that as the best out you can possibly get, then your arguments are going slightly downhill. So because other countries possibly do it, we are ok by doing the same? Clarify please.


Did you read and understand what I wrote? I doubt it. I am simply stating the real facts of life. That is something you and I will both have to live with.

No one knows for certain what if any kind of torture any minors may or may not have received, everyone even myself is just guessing.

Although a few individuals around here; who will remained unamed have implied it may be much worse then it may be, just so they can promote their agenda if you will



posted on May, 30 2006 @ 07:14 PM
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Originally posted by shots
Did you read and understand what I wrote? I doubt it. I am simply stating the real facts of life. That is something you and I will both have to live with.

No one knows for certain what if any kind of torture any minors may or may not have received, everyone even myself is just guessing.

Although a few individuals around here; who will remained unamed have implied it may be much worse then it may be, just so they can promote their agenda if you will


I can't tell you whether it's really happening or not. That is the bottom line. On the other hand, I have a feeling that there is an indeed high probablity in my mind that this has happened, and may be happening. At this time, I suppose there is nothing really more that I can add to this, as I have no up-to-date information to prove either side right/wrong.



posted on May, 30 2006 @ 08:08 PM
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Originally posted by niteboy82
On the other hand, I have a feeling that there is an indeed high probablity in my mind that this has happened, and may be happening.


I am sure you are right I tend to agree that some form of whatever one wants to call it is going on. The real question is what is and what is not cruel and unusual punishment? I tend to think that some are over reacting without knowing all the facts just to promote their agenda/agendas.

As I stated earlier, I would not object too loud music they do not like or I would not object to the use of a truth serum; because I do not see them as cruel knowing that truth serums are used daily in hospitals for patients having surgery, nor is load music unusual for a minor because they listen to walkmans or their car stereos all day long at much higher levels then normal adults do.

One also has to remember that many countries still allow children at the age of 15 to enlist if they want too. Again this shows that one cannot blame it all on the US. I posted links earlier backing up the age limts if you want check this page near the top for the link



[edit on 5/30/2006 by shots]



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