The Catholic Church using Pagan Temples?

Now, not to actually be slamming Catholics, since they may well have not known, but I find it amusing (but maybe not that amusing) that they have spent years, having Christ Cruxcified on Good Friday, top a 1500 Year Old Pyramid recently discovered in Mexico

On Good Friday, more than a million people will flock to the hill in the Iztapalapa neighborhood to watch the annual re-enactment of Christ's final hours, when a man chosen to portray Christ is hung from a cross atop the hill.

But on a recent afternoon as workers readied the steel structures that will support the actors' crosses, a group of archaeologists peered into a pit being dug a few yards away.

"Take a little dirt off the stone in the corner," Maria de los Angeles Flores, the archaeologist in charge of the dig, told a student in the pit holding a shovel.

A row of large stones outlined what she said was probably an altar.

www.archaeologynews.org...

Although, I must admit, reflecting on this scenario, is quite distrubing to me, being a Christian, but I will allow for the aspect of ignorance to be claimed by the Catholics and grant them the benefit of doubt, as to if this was previously known or overlooked for the last 150 Years. They may well have not known.

Organizers of the Passion play this year welcomed the find as another example of the coming together of Mexico's Catholic present with its pre-Columbian past. Mexico's patron saint, Our Lady of Guadalupe, appeared to St. Juan Diego just a few years after the Spanish conquest on a hill outside Mexico City where the Aztecs worshiped Tonantzin, the mother of their gods.

"We take the pyramid's discovery as a symbol of the communion between Catholic and pre-Hispanic Mexico," said the Passion play's chief organizer, Roberto Guillen, an Iztapalapa native who played Judas for the event during 2002-2004.

But they know now and to my amazement, the Catholics still are proceeding to sacrafice Christ annually on this Pagen Alter. Makes you wonder about the Whore of Babylon thing.

Ciao

Shane

Interesting example but hardly unique to this location.

Most religions, throughout history, built on sites that were previously held sacred to the preceding religion. Various temples were either re-consecrated or torn down to have another religion use the same location. In fact, most of that also applies to various deities, traditions, holidays, scripture, liturgy, and most of all WEALTH!

Religion is arguably almost as old as homo-sapiens. The giving of goods, services, land, and even humans to some religion is also quite ubiquitous and ancient. Whenever one religion supplanted another, they took all the possesions that previously belonged to the conquered religions. There is a great deal of documentation to show that the Church of Rome started off with incredible wealth acquired by the taking of all that previously belonged to the pagan (and in some cases Jewish) religious organizations. Of course, most of that wealth had been taken from some previous religious order and so on and so on and so on....

Follow the money.

Originally posted by Al Davison
Interesting example but hardly unique to this location.

Follow the money.

I think what you are noting is quite correct, in respects to 'what they have taken over' so to speak, but I think the thing overlooked in your reply is that this was not known, until now. They just so happened, to have been sacrficing Christ on a Pagan alter for an excess of 150 years, (In a figurative sense).

And now that the know this, I find it disturbing that they are continuing with this pagan rite of sacrafice upon a temple that promoted human sacrafice.

But again, I do agree completely with what you noted, and how the paganization of rites and such, have been incorperated into the 'Chirstian' makeup.

Ishtar = Easter
Winter Soltice = Birth of Christ (But actually the Conception)
Incence Burning = that smokey thing preist swing down the isle.

And so on. It is neverending, in the manner you have note.

Thank's for your thoughts, and I trust you see what I meant as well.

Ciao

Shane


[edit on 26-5-2006 by Shane]

What do you mean to grant the benefit of the doubt? What does it matter what the site used to be? Lots of cathedrals in europe are atop ancient pagan sites, catholic cathedrals, orthodox ones, and protestant ones.
What could it possibly matter? God can't be worshipped at a place where a pagan god used to be worshipped? The peopel that are praying to god at those sites are being ignored by god, more so than at sites that you personally feel are 'clean'??? These people aren't mixing paganism and christianity, that would require actual beleif in pagan gods.

Originally posted by Nygdan
What do you mean to grant the benefit of the doubt? What does it matter what the site used to be?

The people (edit) that are praying to god at those sites are being ignored by god, more so than at sites that you personally feel are 'clean'??? These people aren't mixing paganism and christianity, that would require actual beleif in pagan gods.

Despite your excellent posts and comments made in 'other areas' Nygdan, you are, confusing one thing.

The depicition of Christ's death on the Cross, played out atop a Pagan sacraficial site, in the name of prompting 'Christian Values' within the native population is extreme, in my personal view.

Obviously, this is of no concern to you, or you are missing my point. According to the developements this is not some Building, that once housed Pagan Items. This is not some diluted attempt by Catholics to mix and blend Pagan festivals and assign them Christion charateristics.

THIS IS SACRAFICING CHRIST ON AN ALTER OF A FALLEN ANGEL. (The Lessor gods and deities).

In the broad outlook, hey, it's business as usual within the Catholic and most other Christian organizations, as we have all agreed, in respects to the practises of the Pagans.

But for 150 years now, despite the obvious lack of knowledge of this site, some lessor god or diety is dancing with delight. The sacrafical lamb, is being placed upon 'their' alter, and as in the past, there is blood still being spilt.

It's the symbolism involved.

But maybe, I am just too narrow minded, to expand my sensibilities to embrace this taking place as it is. If they opted to use a neighbouring Hill, or took the festivities away from the Alter itself, then at least that would be something positive.

And I have no difficulties with this observance of the Passover events. These are certainly a Symbolism of Christianity, and many people around the globe partake in this day of rememberance. But how many Christ's are hoisted on a Cross, and shed their blood, atop an Pagan Altar? Not many, I expect. Within a Pagan Building or on the grounds of some previous cultures holy place, is of course, nothing to be to concerned with.

But to me, I believe those who have partaken, (and certainly in this past few years), will need to address this for themselves. It will be something for which they WILL BE JUDGED, and whatever that result brings, will certainly be alright by me. I am not their Judge. Someone else will be doing that.

And for your own references, since when has God not answered these people prayers. Obviously, you may have missed this in the Link.

In 1833, a cholera epidemic raged though Iztapalapa, and villagers begged their patron, as represented by a statue of Christ known as the Lord of the Little Cave, to put an end to the plague. As legend goes, the disease subsided, and residents have staged the procession every year since as a show of thanks.

And for your last point, you must be joking. Do you actually believe the Church, and more so, these people are not mixing Paganism and Christianity?

"We take the pyramid's discovery as a symbol of the communion between Catholic and pre-Hispanic Mexico,"

This is exactly what they are doing, much like that problem holiday called Easter, which atheists claim is insulting them due to the Christian connotations, but it is a pagan fertility rite dedicated to the lessor god/goddess Ishtar/Venus/Satan, who's Pagan period of festivity is during the Passover period.

We can not celebrate Passover though, since it would be presumed to semetic, so lets just call this period of time, ishtar, and roll fertility eggs around the Chruch's Grounds. Afterall, Satanic worship is much more appealing and easier to deal with.

Yeah, right now I am laughing at all of this. It sounds so extreme, but the sad thing is, it is true.

But I always enjoy your posts and 99.9% of your comments. This one though, I do not buy your position, but in this wonderful world we live in today, we are still afforded the opportunity to disagree.

Have an excellent day Nygdan, and keep on those Palestianian revisionist, who seek to confuse History with Fiction

Ciao

Shane

*sigh* Here we go ....

There are some Catholics in different parts of the world that 'do their own thing'.
In the Phillippines some scourge themselves. In other places some nail themselves
to crosses. None of these things are sanctioned by Rome. It's just their custom
and how they personally worship God ... by really acting out the Passion.

MANY of the Catholic churches are built on top of old pagan sites. It was done
in order to 'reclaim' the ground for Christ.

Others are built on top of Christian sites - like the church of the Nativity and
the church of the seplecur (spelling?). Heck, there is even a cathedral on
the spot where Moses saw the burning bush. I think it's called St. Catherines.

As Nygdan said .. there is no mix of pagan and Christianity. They don't
believe in the pagan 'gods' and they are worshipping the One True God
in their own way (apart from Rome's approval).





[edit on 5/26/2006 by FlyersFan]

Is anyone here actually Pagan ? Id write a long post trying to clear things up but its 6 a.m and I still havent woken up.

[edit on 26-5-2006 by FuzzyMcSlash]

Well, I can see where it might offend some people but, it's a local custom and they appear to be sincere.

I mean, I'm guessing you know enough to realize that Jesus was not the first "God on Earth" to be crucified and then rise again (at least one of them was 3 days later, even) so, religions borrow all kinds of stuff from each other. I don't think that diminishes the belief of the practioners.

Does it matter where the church is built? as long as it is consecrated no previous religious acts there affect the land. The church was therefore built on new or untouched land. What does it matter if they replay the whole event so vividly? if anything it shows an extreme dedication to the faith they belive in, in similar ways to scourging and wearing a Silas. There is nothing sinister about it. It is rememberence of G-D above.

Yeah, so they are doing a Passion Play....what's wrong with that?
It's all in Christ name, and that's all that matters......stop hunting for witches.

this is nothing new.

www.aloha.net...

Originally posted by Shane
is extreme, in my personal view.

Fair enough, I wouldn't want to argue over your own personal view.

THIS IS SACRAFICING CHRIST ON AN ALTER OF A FALLEN ANGEL. (The Lessor gods and deities).

But its a place that pused to be a pagan temple. The people that go there beleive in christ as saviour. You suggest that their are not saved? There are many sites in christendom that were pagan sites, heck, there even used to be an idol to Asherah in Solomon's Temple, but that doesn't mean that a mass done there is a mixing of "baal and christ" no?

Is the siginifcant difference that there is a "passion play" at the site?

some lessor god or diety is dancing with delight. The sacrafical lamb, is being placed upon 'their' alter, and as in the past, there is blood still being spilt.

BUt this suggests that Jesus is somehow weaker than this demon-god, or that the people doing it are offering jesus as a satanic-symbolic sacrifice to that god. But they don't know about the god, at all, and aren't intending to sacrifice to him, so why would this demon, given that it exists, be empowered by this?

If they opted to use a neighbouring Hill

The very fact that it takes place up on the heights of a hill is an old paganistic practice. Recall from the bible that the Isrealites used to have secret pagan ceremonies (against the wishes of god and the preists) on the high places of the hills.

But how many Christ's are hoisted on a Cross, and shed their blood, atop an Pagan Altar?

Very many, if you count the eucharistic mass as similar to that. ALso, I'd suspect that many 'feast days' in which the statues of saints or people dressed as jesus are paraded through a town, are around the same time as an older pagan holliday in the town.

But to me, I believe those who have partaken, (and certainly in this past few years), will need to address this for themselves. It will be something for which they WILL BE JUDGED,

But do you really think that Jesus is going to toss them into the lake of fire becuase they have attended this passion play, in full piousness and justification to christ?

who's Pagan period of festivity is during the Passover period.

But now hold on a minute. The problem here is that there is a re-enactment of the crucifixtion at a church, which happens to be on an old pagan site. BUT the entire passover festival is little more than a jewish version of the old pagan fertility festival, and its been carried over into christianity through that route. What mixes baal and christ more, full christians, accepting christ as personal saviour, doing a 'purely' christian ritual, at a place that once was a pagan site, OR people doing a pagan ritual with christian apparatus's attached to it?

but in this wonderful world we live in today, we are still afforded the opportunity to disagree

Absolutely, and thats the great thing about this site. THey say it takes all kinds of people to make a world, and here you get to meet them!

Originally posted by FuzzyMcSlash
Is anyone here actually Pagan ?

The pagans died out around a thousand years ago. I doubt anyone here is part of those old pagan traditions, or part of the south american pagan traditions. Where christianity spread, the pagans passed out of existence. There might be some neo-pagans here though.

al davidson
was not the first "God on Earth" to be crucified

? Which was specifically crucified, or were you typing too fast?

I'll agree that other gods have been staked, like Inanna in her journey to the under-world, who was hanged from a pole, died, revived, and saved the souls of people in hell in returning to the world. Or Osiris, who dies, and his coffin is carried by a tree, and then revives and then becomes a lord over the afterlife. But do you mean specifically undergoing cruci-fixtion, as in being fixed to a cross?

Perhaps you are thinkign of the 'crucified bacchus'?
members.cox.net...

But it is unknown if that pre- or post-dates christianity.

I don't think it really matters where you worship. Roman christians used to worship in the catacombs before they were a recognized religion (I believe). Wherever they worship as long as the area is consecrated by the priest before worship begins, then it is holy to God.

Why does there have to be a magic ritual in order to make the place acceptable for worship? Why must that ritual be performed by an authorized Roman Catholic Preist?

Why does there have to be a magic ritual in order to make the place acceptable for worship? Why must that ritual be performed by an authorized Roman Catholic Preist?

Consecration is about defining the area to be fit for prayer, and to allow the land built to have a clean, brand new 'slate'. It is possible to worship anwhere according to all the christian sects (as far as i know?) but it is rather nice to do it in a defined place.

The consecration is only a RC priest for RC chuches. Do not forget that all sects (again I may be generalising) use consecration. It allows the ground to become Holy. Believe its a kind of magic if you will, but one that gives people comfort. and is there much else that matters?

hi, new here

Sorry for dragging this one back up but it interested me.

Within the UK there are numerous early churches built on early pagan worship sites. As mentioned before the conventional explanation has always been the early (catholic) church wanted to show its dominance over other religions and beliefs. There is even a church in Yorkshire with a standing stone in the grave yard which must lead to some interested summer solstice arrangements. What has never been explained satisfactorily (well to me anyway) is the incorporation of pagan images into many early church's decoration. The most common being 'the green man' link - I did once watch what promised to be an interesting documentary supposedly investigating a supposed pagan cult within the early British church, with pagan images being incorporated into churches as markers to believers - unfortunately it was a badly researched semi farcical piece of junk which proved nothing.

As an aside, an ancient church local to me (I'm a Brit BTW) has incorporated into it a piece of a Saxon carving (or so the archeologist told me) of a warrior fighting a serpent.

On a semi related note, anyone heard of Celtic Christianity. Although little is known about it, Celtic Christianity was a mix of Celtic beliefs and early Christianity link It eventually faded away following the Synod of Cashel in 1172, which was essentially a pow pow between the Celtic Christian and catholic churches in which the Celtics eventually agreed to retreat to their abbies and not to recruit more followers in exchange for no persecution by the catholic church - persecution, or so it would appear, being a particular hobby of the catholic church.


[edit on 11-7-2006 by robin good]

As I recall most if not all Pagan Temples were built on or near Magical places.
Places that had what today are called Auras, or strong vibes, or connections to
"The Other World/s". Places that come to mind are the vortices and portals of Arizona
and other places of the American southwest.

The catholic church built on them for several reasons. To deny the places to the pagan followers, because they had the armies they could, and IMO in an attempt to steal the magic they lacked.

The Celtic Church did not die out. There is some evidence that Robert Bruce planned to
reinstitute and re consecrate Scotland to the Celtic church. The Original stories of Arthur ,Morgaine, Modred, Gwenyfer and the gang before they were completely polluted by christianity, told of the battle between the Celtic Church and Arthurs treason, betrayal, and conversion to roman xianity.

Gwenyfer a Celtic Princess ( a matrichal society) was well within her rights and obligations to dump Arthur ( a traitor to her beliefs and customs) and go off with
Lancelot, OR whom ever she chose.

This "custom" is again brought to the fore in Scott's Ivanho(e) , with the confrontation between (the Saxon/Celtic) Rowena and ( the Norman/xian) DeBraisse,
When she states( the 198? film version because I particulalry like this version)
"I will NOT be wed to a man who dispises the customs which I was brought up in."

There are many others like this and Robin and Marion, but I shant bore you with the details.

Originally posted by robin good
hi, new here

Sorry for dragging this one back up but it interested me.

Within the UK there are numerous early churches built on early pagan worship sites.

As an aside, an ancient church local to me (I'm a Brit BTW) has incorporated into it a piece of a Saxon carving (or so the archeologist told me) of a warrior fighting a serpent.

On a semi related note, anyone heard of Celtic Christianity.

Do not be sorry, This is a topic that can grow.

You noted the Celtic Christianity, and Stalkingwolf addressed a lot of that Account.

By chance, how close would you be to Glastonbury?

www.asis.com...
Various and many historical documents indicate that, after Jerusalem, the first Christian church was established in England. It's founder, and founder as well of many seminaries, was Joseph of Arimathea, the uncle of the Virgin Mary. He was Jesus' great uncle. Joseph was a rich merchant with a large fleet of ships that ran the tin trade for the Roman Empire, between England and the Mediterranean.

As Jesus' great uncle, Joseph became Jesus' Guardian (by Law, as next of kin) when Mary's husband Joseph died early in Jesus' life. He took Jesus with him on his journeys to Glastonbury, England. The place we know as Avalon; the King Arthur Avalon. This is the location of the first Christian church built above ground.

To paraphrase an old saying, "All Christian roads lead to England."

So, with this noted, I can here the masses arising from their slumber, and saying, WTH is up with this?

Here's a Qualifier

ABSENT EVIDENCE

If Jesus was indeed absent from Judea from age twelve to age thirty, as some believe, we should be able to find evidence that this was the case. In Matt 17 Jesus was being asked for the Stranger's tax. They seemed aware that Jesus lived in Capernaum. They didn't know if he was exempt from the tax, having been gone for a long time.
John the Baptist, who was Jesus' cousin, and spent time with Jesus as they grew up, was very uncertain as to Jesus' identity at his baptism. If Jesus had spent the "lost years" in Judea, he and John would certainly have seen each other at the three yearly Feasts.
Then we find two accounts of Jesus' identity being questioned. "Is this not Joseph's son?" "Brought up here?" (Luke 4) "Is not this the carpenter's son?" (Matt 14) And in John 1 we find that Nathaniel, who only lived five miles from Nazareth, doesn't know Jesus. Capt says that Nathaniel was from Cana.


JESUS' VISITS

Of Jesus' visits to England, scattered evidence abounds. Here's a short scenario from C.C. Dobson

"As a boy He was brought merely for a visit by Joseph of Arimathea on one of his voyages. Later as a young man He returned and settled at Glastonbury for the purpose of quiet study, prayer, and meditation. Here He erected for Himself a small house of mud and wattles. " Dobson goes on to present historical evidence.

In a letter to Pope Gregory, St.Augustine states that there was a church "constructed by no human art, but divinely contructed (or by the hands of Christ Himself), for the salvation of His people."
The historian, Gildas, says Jesus' "Light and precepts" were "afforded...to this island during the ...last year of the reign of Tiberius. Tiberius retired to Caprae in A.D. 27.
William of Malmesbury includes in his writings the contents of a letter given by King Ina to Glastonbury, 700 AD."To the ancient church, situate in the place called Glastonbury (which Church the Great High Priest and Chiefest Minister formerly through His own ministry, and that of angels....." This confirms Gildas' statement that Jesus had a ministry at Glastonbury.
The historical records called the Domesday Surveys, also bear witness to Jesus' presence in Glastonbury. These surveys state that Glastonbury contained 12 hides (160 acre parcels) of land that "have never paid tax." This was because the King Arviragus gave these parcels to Joseph of Arimathea when he arrived in England in 37 AD.

So what is the Point of this, some may ask?

The First Church in England, may have infact been built by Christ himself, and the Ministry would have been first sparked in this region of the World. This, along with the Authurian aspect, associated with Glatsonbury is quite complelling

As for the First Church, it appear history will conclude likewise, despite being stuffed under the rug, to be forgotten.

www.asis.com...
It will be noticed that two distinct events are spoken of above: (1) The foundation of the Church in England by the Disciples of Christ. (2) The acceptance of Christianity by the British Nation under Good King Lucius about AD 170. Britain was the first of all nations to accept Christianity as its national religion. Few people realize that this is why the British King is called "our Most Religious King". Not many realize that the superior dignity and antiquity of our national Church has been decided by Church Councils. The Councils of Pisa in 1409, Constance in 1417, Sienna in 1424, and Basle in 1434. It was there contended that the Churches of France and Spain must yield in points of antiquity and precedence to that of Britain, as the latter Church was founded by Joseph of Arimathea immediately after the Passion of Christ.

So, is Mary's Home, the First Church refered to as being founded by Jeoseph of Arimathea?

I do tend to think so.

I'll leave you with a Poem/Song known from the Glastonbury area, and written by William Blake

And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon England's mountains green?
And was the Holy Lamb of God
On England's pleasant pastures seen?

And did the Countenance Divine
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here
Among those dark satanic mills?

Bring me my sword of burning gold!
Bring me my arrows of desire!
Bring me my spear! O clouds unfold!
Bring me my chariot of fire!

I will not cease from mental fight
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand
Till we have built Jerusalem
In England's green and pleasant land.

I hope the response provokes some questions, and maybe sends you to checkout those questions you have for yourself. You do seem to have an interest, and I assure you, your question and Stalkingwolf's response, are connected with this, in ways we many never accept.

Ciao

Shane

Is anyone here actually Pagan ?

Yes. there used to be more but they ran afoul of the fundies.


There is also the possibility/probility that the one spoken of was not Jesus bar Joseph
but his son Jesus Justus , possibly Jesus bar Abbas.