'United' Kingdom....nah....

This is a question that has been plaguing me ever since it started in 1998...

Basically, the UK underwent a change in 1998 with a process called 'devolution'. This means that the power to create and change legislation in 3 of the 4 Kingdoms was granted to the individual members National assembly or parliament. The three kindoms being Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.....obvioulsy it was decided (SOMEWHERE BY SOMEONE) that for some reason the largest and most populous kingdom (and also the largest provider of tax income), England, would not be devolved.

The scottish paliament was projected to cost £50million, it actually cost £431million to build (provided courtesy of the UK taxpayer) and costs £6.7million a year to runb (again from the UK taxpayer)

For more information click here

The Welsh Assembly cost £67million - more info

The Stornont (Northern Irish) Assembly another £50million - click here

So if anyone can give a reason as to why an English assembly has not been proposed please let me know. The only reason i can think of is that it is easier to push through laws restricting freedom if the largest kingdom doesn't have a say. There must be some sort of reason.....

In the UK parliament scottish, welsh and Northern Irish Members have a say on the governing of England........

[edit on 25/5/2006 by Nerevar]

Originally posted by Nerevar
This is a question that has been plaguing me ever since it started in 1998...

Basically, the UK underwent a change in 1998 with a process called 'devolution'. This means that the power to create and change legislation in 3 of the 4 Kingdoms was granted to the individual members National assembly or parliament. The three kindoms being Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.....obvioulsy it was decided (SOMEWHERE BY SOMEONE) that for some reason the largest and most populous kingdom (and also the largest provider of tax income), England, would not be devolved.

I'm no expert on this but I imagine that is because we already have a parliament (i.e. the house of commons)

The scottish paliament was projected to cost £50million, it actually cost £431million to build (provided courtesy of the UK taxpayer) and costs £6.7million a year to runb (again from the UK taxpayer)

well I'd have to disagree there as all the largest UK oil fields are off the scottish coast but scotland doesn'tr receive a penny of the income from that as it goes directly to the treasury. The oil fields annual income is in the region of £12.8 Billion a year so I think that they have more than paid their share of the cost of the Scottish Parliament.

www.snp.org...

So if anyone can give a reason as to why an English assembly has not been proposed please let me know. The only reason i can think of is that it is easier to push through laws restricting freedom if the largest kingdom doesn't have a say. There must be some sort of reason.....

In the UK parliament scottish, welsh and Northern Irish Members have a say on the governing of England........

I dont know if that is true or not????

Intersting site here about how disadvantaged we are in England. It is true that Scottish, Welsh and N Irish MP's can and do vote on issues that affect England but our MP's cannot vote on issues in the respective assemblies.
We should have an English assembly but ordinary English folk dont care enough about it to try and push for one.

Hi guys,

please remember that there are UK issues (pensions etc etc) that have not been devolved to the new parliaments/assemblies. This is why Scottish, Welsh and NI MPs still vote in the House of Commons - they vote on UK issues.

It has been a bone of contention by many MPs that Scots MPs in particular get to vote on English matters; Tam Dalyell asked the now infamous West Lothian question - news.bbc.co.uk...

Best Wishes

J

good find janus!

That is the point i am trying to make. The North Sea oil fields are not scottish but are BRITISH and the only fair way of dispersing this income would be to apportion it thoughout the UK based on the demographic of the population.

To make England bear the burden of greater spends on healthcare and education is unfair. As the largest and most populus nation within the union surely logic dictates that it is only fair to have (relativley) more spent on us??

I can sum up my feelings in this phrase:

If you ask a Scot what his nationality is he will say Scottish, If you ask the same to a Welshman he would say Welsh so why is it that when an Englishman is asked his nationality he is encouraged to say British. English children are being taught from an early age that they are British not English. Why is it that the English are 'repressed'?

Fear of power maybe....

The only assemblies/parliaments/houses of government on England are BRITISH institutions. There is NO ENGLISH PARLIAMENT but there an established devolved institution in every other member of the UK.

Its a common complaint I hear alot here.

The English dont state their nationality because they will be considered racist. Pretty sad really.

Regarding the Oil off Scotland- The bulk of the income went straight to the English Government. Scotland saw very little benefit other than employment in areas like Aberdeen. If Scotland had recieved the income from the oil found in Scottish waters we would have one of the weathyest countries in the world. What do we have instead? Higher unemloyment, greater % of people living in poverty, worse heath record than some third world countries. Parts of Glasgow have higher infant mortality rates than parts of Africa!! Yeah we are all so greatful for the English looking after us.

We in Scotland still have very little control of our own affairs and devolved parliment or no we are still ruled by the English. We were a sepperate country until we were invaded and our culture was suppressed by your English "Hammer of the Scots"

We don't want to get into the history here since Scotland, Wales and Ireland were all occupied by the English and have had a fairly poor time of it ever since.

Scotland has always been a trial zone for whatever new policy the UK gov was thinking of introducing. Poll Tax anyone. Try it out on the Scots first and if it doesn't work, well hey, it's only the Scots.

Dont try to tell us that we have a controlling influence in English affairs, we still barely have any control of our own!

G

news.bbc.co.uk...

Official papers which were previously secret have shown how ministers were advised to delay devolution to maintain control of North Sea oil revenues.
The 1970s documents warned that if devolution increased calls for independence, the loss of oil income might leave the UK virtually bankrupt.

[A Whitehall official] said: "The Scots have really got us over a barrel here. The prospects for a separate English, Welsh and Ulster economy on the same assumption must look pretty grim."

Papers released at the end of last year by the Cabinet Office under the 30-year rule revealed a 1975 memo by Sir Kenneth Berrill, head of the central policy review staff, saying that Scotland could "go it alone" on the profits of North Sea oil.
He said the note admitted that a UK government would have to divert huge resources to Scotland for it to be as well off as under independence.

www.theherald.co.uk...

It set out how Scotland would have had one of the strongest currencies in Europe, attracting international capital into its banks in the same way as Switzerland. It argued Scotland could quickly become one of Europe's strongest economies with "embarrassingly" large tax surpluses.

I'll keep my comments on this to a minimum, as this is one subject that I know I can't keep my cool about. The revelations of this report are one of the few things in my life that brought me to a level of anger I've rarely experienced.

I'll say one thing. You can shove your Barnett formula where the sun don't shine.




[edit on 25-5-2006 by kegs]

Originally posted by Nerevar
good find janus!

That is the point i am trying to make. The North Sea oil fields are not scottish but are BRITISH and the only fair way of dispersing this income would be to apportion it thoughout the UK based on the demographic of the population.

What is it your saying exactly?

You want to be devolved into just England, so we are all, more or less independant and then you take the oil money?

Its not British oil, its Scottish oil. Scotland is a country, with borders and territorial waters.

Originally posted by G_man
Regarding the Oil off Scotland- The bulk of the income went straight to the English Government.

to correct; the bulk of the income went to the BRITISH government. There is no English Government. Thats my point.

Originally posted by G_man
Higher unemloyment, greater % of people living in poverty, worse heath record than some third world countries. Parts of Glasgow have higher infant mortality rates than parts of Africa!! Yeah we are all so greatful for the English looking after us.

Again slight mistake. BRITISH not English. British means English, Welsh, (northern) Irish and you guys. Regarding healthcare/education/social security, you may want to write to your local MSP as these are now issues which are devolved.

Could i also please please please ask people to stop refering to the English as being the same as British. Very sore point....we are PART of the United Kingdom same as Scotland, Wales and NI....although the only institution that we have a say in is the UK parliament

Originally posted by G_man
We in Scotland still have very little control of our own affairs and devolved parliment or no we are still ruled by the English.

Scotland has more say over its national government now than England does. In fact Scotland has also has influence over English legislation by having representatives at Westminster.

Originally posted by G_man
We were a sepperate country until we were invaded and our culture was suppressed by your English "Hammer of the Scots"

700 years ago. All i ever hear is 'yeah but you invaded us' from Welsh, Scot and Irishmen. As i'm sure you can appreciate this has NO bearing on the topic in hand, unless of course you are saying that the reason why there is no English parliament is because of King Eddie!

Originally posted by G_man
We don't want to get into the history here since Scotland, Wales and Ireland were all occupied by the English and have had a fairly poor time of it ever since.

yes you were occupied by the English in the 1300's. It happens.

Especially when you have a powerful neighbour and you make treaties with their arch enemies eh? (France). I can't defend what King Edward I did.

Originally posted by G_man
Dont try to tell us that we have a controlling influence in English affairs, we still barely have any control of our own!

you have more control over the govt of scotland as well as a say in the govt of England.

Kegs, Dawa, I'm not saying to become independant Kingdoms but to at least have equal representation for England as the respective other parts of the UK have.

Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland are not 'countries' in the legal sense of things. For example could Scotland declare war? could Wales enter into a free trade area? No, it is the UK that would do it as the legal entity.

The legal entity is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Nothern Ireland therefore all natural resources fall under the legislative control of the UK. What about the income from the southern north sea gas fields? and the natural gas in the English channel? they are taxed the same and most of the tax diverted to Scotland and Wales.

My point is this. Why is there no English Parliament? what are the reasons why the English nation is not allowed to exist when Scotland and Wales are? why did the EU compile a regional map of the EU with the only nation left out to be England. It is disgusting. Could you imagine the uproar if The UK was portrayed as only England....

I'm fed up with all of the crap i have to take being an Englishman, I'm not allowed to be patriotic because;

A) its racist
B) its Facist
C) you invaded us
D) you were slave traders

I do not harbour any ill will towards the other members of the UK. Why is it that the nationalistic sentiments of these other members centres on hatred of us?

Could i also please please please ask people to stop refering to the English as being the same as British. Very sore point....we are PART of the United Kingdom same as Scotland, Wales and NI....although the only institution that we have a say in is the UK parliament

Don't make me laugh. The angle you're going for is pathetic. You perceive a Scots influence 'greater than it should be' in the UK parliament, and now you try to play the victim. England controls everything in the UK; you'd have to be a fool or a charlatan to profess otherwise.

Scotland has more say over its national government now than England does. In fact Scotland has also has influence over English legislation by having representatives at Westminster.

These uppity Scots are having a say in the ruling of our country! The impudence!

700 years ago

And 700 years since.

Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland are not 'countries' in the legal sense of things. For example could Scotland declare war? could Wales enter into a free trade area? No, it is the UK that would do it as the legal entity.

Now, no. If they finally chose independence, then yes.


Your south sea oil and gas garbage is just that, garbage.



Scotland owes England nothing.

[edit on 26-5-2006 by kegs]

At last we agree on something Kegs.

Scotland owes England nothing.....just as much as England owes Scotland nothing.

The UK Parliament is a combination of all constituencies within the UK. Therefore as the largest part of the UK, England has the most representatives. what do you propose to do instead?

quote: Scotland has more say over its national government now than England does.
In fact Scotland has also has influence over English legislation by having representatives at Westminster.


These uppity Scots are having a say in the ruling of our country! The impudence!

I think you may have misunderstood. I meant Scotland has more say over the government of scotland than England does over the goverment of England. The current government of england is the same place as the government of the UK therefore representatives of the other nations can vote on english policies.

England has no say over Scotland's devolved government and rightfully so. England has no say over Wales' devolved government and rightfully so.

So why are legislation, healthcare and educational policies for England decided by the UK parliament and not a devolved English Parliament? we apply that logic to Scotland - you now have a scottish parliament. same for wales. why not England?


that is my question, that you keep avoiding.



just look at the hate that you are portraying for England. its unjustified.

answer this then....are you a british citizen? No your Scottish. Am i a british citizen? i'd LOVE to say no but I DONT HAVE A CHOICE LIKE YOU.

I'm English therefore i'm automatically british.

Nerevar, Who would run the English parliament if it was created?

Tony Blair is Scottish
Gordon Brown is Scottish
Menzies Campbell is Scottish

That leaves you with David Cameron

Scotland should become completely independant, but then who would hold the hands of the English politics?


[edit on 26-5-2006 by Snoopdopey]

Could i also please please please ask people to stop refering to the English as being the same as British. Very sore point....we are PART of the United Kingdom same as Scotland, Wales and NI....although the only institution that we have a say in is the UK parliament

This is a very funny comment! I'm sure any other Scots, Irish, or Welsh on the board will have so many memories of being referred to as English by the "British" media. Yes we are British, of course but we are also Scots, Irish, Welsh and English respectively.

Fine then.

I say lets all just split up and go our seperate ways! You English can have a government all of your own, you can call yourselves English, you can go to war with anyone you like.

We'll bugger off and take our oil n gas with us, Wales you can come to.

[edit on 27-5-2006 by dawa]

Originally posted by Nerevar
This is a question that has been plaguing me ever since it started in 1998...

The scottish paliament was projected to cost £50million, it actually cost £431million to build (provided courtesy of the UK taxpayer) and costs £6.7million a year to runb (again from the UK taxpayer)

The Welsh Assembly cost £67million

The Stornont (Northern Irish) Assembly another £50million -

So if anyone can give a reason as to why an English assembly has not been proposed please let me know.

You've already answered your question: the cost!

Think how much it'd cost not only to build and run an English Assembly building but to pay for all the useless MPs to inhabit it as well. It's basically just another tier of government aka another excuse to raise taxes.

I would rather do without it thank you very much.....


(Actually, the plan was always not for a single English assemby, but to break England up into smaller regional assemblies. A plan introduced by the EU and, so far, resoundingly rejected by the English www.regionalassemblies.co.uk... One could argue that the Scots Irish and Welsh are simply victims of an EU plot to undermine national identity! )


btw I'm Albannaich* and proud of it. Time we ditched the modern name of Britain that was imposed on us by those silly Italians


* an inhabitant of Alba or Albion. Though nowadays it's become synonymous with Highlander (as opposed to sassunach - meaning a Lowlander, whether English or Scots)

Originally posted by dawa
Fine then.

I say lets all just split up and go our seperate ways! You English can have a government all of your own, you can call yourselves English, you can go to war with anyone you like.

We'll bugger off and take our oil n gas with us, Wales you can come to.

[edit on 27-5-2006 by dawa]

Sounds like a great idea I'm of scottish & french descent so although my family have lived in england for a few generation I consider myself scottish first, British second, french third and english last.