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The Green Fireball Mystery of New Mexico

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posted on May, 24 2006 @ 04:34 PM
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Today I am in the mood to post some of my favorite UFO cases that I have found have not been covered in previous threads. This Thread is about the mysterious green fireballs that were sighted by the most credible of witnesses in the later part of 1948 to the early part of 1949, in a triangular region of New Mexico almost exclusively.

Here is the wikipedia entry for the green fireballs.

Southwestern Green Fireballs

The first sightings of the strange green fireballs were sighted November of 1948, but dismissed as green flares from military exercises. The first major fireball sighting that was taken seriously occured the night of December 5th, 1948.


Then on the night of December 5, two separate plane crews in New Mexico, one military and one civilian, asserted that they’d each seen strange green lights, though about 20 minutes apart. The military pilots were near Las Vegas, New Mexico and described the light as intense, and if a flare, it was the strangest one they had ever seen. The civilian pilot was near Albuquerque and described the light as pale green. It appeared to come straight at them on a collision course, forcing the pilot to swerve the plane.
As if that weren't enough, on the same night a dozen green fireballs were seen traveling generally north to south between 7:30 p.m. and 11:30 p.m. by security guards at military installations in the vicinity of Albuquerque and Las Vegas, N.M. The sightings near Albuquerque were at Sandia base, a highly sensitive installation where atomic bombs were assembled near Kirtland Air Force Base. The next night, a similar green light was again spotted for a few seconds over Sandia base.


The Airforce Launched an investigation the next day. They took it very seriously, as this was the period time when tensions with the Soviet Union were starting to devlop into the Cold War. Fears of new Russian secret weapons and espionage were quite valid, and the strange reports of the green fireballs attracted serious attention. The fact that these sightings were taking place near the mosr classified installations in the country set off even more alarms.

The Airforce investigators were treated to a sighting of the mysterious fireballs a few days later.


Two AFOSI investigators--both of whom were experienced pilots--themselves witnessed a green fireball while flying an aircraft the evening of December 8. They said it was about 2000 feet above their craft, roughly resembling the green flares commonly used by the Air Force, though "much more intense" and apparently "considerably brighter". The light seemed to burst into full brilliance almost instantaneously. Their report stated that the light was "definitely larger and more brilliant than a shooting star, meteor or flare." The light lasted only a few seconds, moving "almost flat and parallel to the earth". The light’s "trajectory then dropped off rapidly" leaving "a trail of fragments reddish orange in color" which then fell towards the ground.


After these two incidents, the Air Force called in Dr. Lincoln La Paz, one of the worlds most respected authorities on meteors and a man who had worked on several top secret government projects himself. La Paz saw a green fireball one night and calculated its trajectory as flying right over Los Alamos.


In a classified letter to the Air Force on December 20, La Paz wrote that the object moved far too slowly to have been a meteor, and furthermore, left no "trail of sparks or dust cloud" as would be typical of meteors flying at low altitudes. Other anomalous characterics were the intense lime-green color (completely unlike the Geminids meteor shower being observed at the same time), low altitude of only 8-10 miles yet exhibiting no sound, flat rather than arced trajectory, and turning on and off like a light switch. Later he was to add that the sightings were confined almost entirely to northern New Mexico and no fragments were ever found despite extensive searches using previously successful triangulation techniques.
La Paz suggested that security patrols at Los Alamos should attempt to photograph the green fireballs. However the duration of the fireballs was so brief (1-5 seconds) and the onset so unexpected that they were unsuccessful. Other green fireball sightings occurred over Los Alamos on December 11, 13, 14, 20, 28, and January 6, 1949, raising the level of concern by security and military intelligence. The green fireball on December 20 was most remarkable in that it was seen to change direction, quite impossible for a meteor. Two security guards saw it first descending at a 45 degree angle, then leveling off at an altitude of about 2 miles. Even though at most only a few miles distant, no sound was heard, just as for the other green fireballs.


The Air Force was very concerned by Dr. La Paz's information. That these were not ordinary meteors was one thing, but their behavior suggested something under some sort of control. More fears of possible enemy secret weapons arose. There had been a recent string of plane crashes, and the appearance of the green fireballs seemed more than coincidence. The fact that they were seen only in New Mexico further ruled out natural phenomenon.


On January 30, the brightest and most widely seen green fireball sighting occurred near Roswell, New Mexico. The next day the FBI was informed by Army and Air Force intelligence that flying saucers and the fireballs were classified top secret. La Paz interviewed hundreds of witnesses, with help from the FBI and military intelligence, and again tried to recover fragments by triangulating a trajectory, but was again unsuccessful.
After his own sighting and interviewing numerous witnesses, La Paz had concluded that "green fireballs" were an artificial phenomenon. On February 8 he met with Dr. Joseph Kaplan, a UCLA geophysicist and member of the Air Force Scientific Advisory Board. Kaplan, himself a meteor expert, agreed they could not be conventional meteorite falls and informed La Paz that he knew of no secret military projects that could explain the fireballs. He found La Paz's data on the fireballs unsettling and felt an investigation was needed in the name of national security.


To continue in a following post............




posted on May, 24 2006 @ 05:24 PM
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The study became formal, and the Conference on Aerial Phenomena convened, a meeting of the best scientific minds and top military personnel. They ruled out what the fireballs werent, such as secret government projects, military exercises, and meteors. Puzzling factors were discussed, such as the silent passage of the fireballs, which, traveling at speeds estimated from 25,000-50,000 mph at altitudes as low as 10,000 feet, should have created ear shattering sonic booms. Foreign technology was also ruled out. They also discussed setting up a network of surveillance to capture the fireballs on camera for further study. The Air Force, strangely enough, was quite against the idea and gave resistance. What is interesting is that the conference took place shortly after the shake-up of Project Sign, which was in the process of reorganizing into Project Grudge, which treated all UFO sightings as ridiculous. Those in Project Sign who were pro extraterrestrial hypothesis were booted out to be replaced by persons more willing to tote the party line that UFOs were delusions.

A series of strange, but smaller and slower lights were reported at the weapons storage area at Ft. Hood, Texas, from April 1949 and onward. the Army set up observation posts, and while no photos were taken, managed to gather alot of information and triangulation of the objects.


By April 1949, similar sights were reported over a nuclear-weapons storage facility at Fort Hood in Texas. The intrusions were deemed so serious that, unlike the Air Force, the Army quickly set up an observation network. Sightings continued through August, the most spectacular being on June 6 when a hovering orange light, 30 to 70 feet across and a mile in the air was spotted. Finally it started moving in level flight, then burst into small particles.


Those familair with the UFO phenomenon will note some rather eerie similarities to the object seen during the Rendelsham Forest Incident in 1980.


On July 24, a green fireball was observed falling close to Socorro, New Mexico. Dust samples were collected at the School of Mines there and were found to contain large particles of copper. La Paz found this highly significant since copper burns with the same yellow-green color characteristic of the green fireballs. He also noted that if the copper particles came from the green fireballs, then they couldn't be conventional meteorites, since copper was never found in dust of meteoritic origin. La Paz suggested that further air and ground samples be taken in areas where the fireballs were seen.
At the same time, AFOSI informed La Paz on investigations of "anomalous luminous phenomena" between early June and early August. Many of the green fireballs were now descending on vertical paths, whereas initially they almost always traveled horizontally.
Another Los Alamos conference convened on October 14. No one disputed the reality of the phenomena and nobody could explain it. Among the puzzles was the sudden onset and the high concentration of sightings in New Mexico, quite unlike a natural phenomena. Despite this, it was decided the fireballs were probably atmospheric in origin. Instrumented observations -- photographic, triangulation, and spectroscopic -- were deemed essential to solving the mystery.


Incidentally, when dust samples were taken out in the desert far from any man made facilities in areas where the fireballs were reported, they did indeed discover copper particles, further proving these fireballs were not meteoric in origin, since copper is never found in meteors.

Eventually, Project Twinkle was formed to fully study the phenomenon. the project, however, failed to produce any results. The most interesting tidbit was that Project Twinkle was taken over in 1951 by a Maj. Edward A. Doty, who was a skeptic, who got the project closed down and stripped of offical status. If you recognized the name Doty, you are correct. Edward Doty was the uncle of Richard Doty, The AFOSI agent involved in the Bennewitz Affair.

Project Twinkle never came to any concensus on the nature of the Green Fireballs. The sightings of the fireballs continued, although waning from their original frequency of at least half a dozen in a month. They still remain a mystery. Many explainations have been put forward, but none are satisfactory. For example:

1. Aurora effects. Ruled out, since the fact that these fireballs were only seen in New Mexico, and only during this time period, never before or since.
2. Plasma. Again, ruled out. If it was natural, it would not be confined to one small geographical region, and would have been reported since then, or before then.
3. secret weapon. Ruled out. No evidence of any sort of secret weapon on any side has ever serviced.
4. Lunar debris. Quite a joke, since none was recovered.

The Scientists of Los Alamos, though, had their opinions on the fireballs:


Edward J. Ruppelt, director of the USAF Project Blue Book UFO study, stated he visited the Los Alamos National Laboratory in early 1952 and spoke to various scientists and technicians there, all of whom had had green fireball sightings. (book) None of them believed they had a conventional explanation, such as a new natural phenomenon, secret government project, or psychologically enlarged meteors. Instead the scientists speculated that they were extraterrestrial probes "projected into our atmosphere from a 'spaceship' hovering several hundred miles above the earth." Ruppelt commented, "Two years ago I would have been amazed to hear a group of reputable scientists make such a startling statement. Now, however, I took it as a matter of course. I'd heard the same type of statement many times before from equally qualified groups."


While this view was not unanimous amongst scientists, the man with the most knowledge and expertise of the lot, Dr. La Paz, believed the fireballs were artifical things created by unknown agencies.



posted on May, 24 2006 @ 06:25 PM
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Excellent Read Skadi_the_Evil_Elf !!!

Very well done!

Can I say that I think that the Dr. La Paz UFO connection in New Mexico runs deeper though.

On July 10 ,1947 Dr. La Paz traveling with his family back to New Mexico from Oklahoma detours 100 miles south of his home and witnesses a "Flying Saucer" near Ft. Sumner ,NM. This sighting was detailed in a Life Magazine article May 5, 1952 .

www.nicap.org...

You might recognize that the Roswell incident was in full swing just one day before this on July 9th 1947.

Then there is also the testimony of CIC Master Sgt. Lewis "Bill" Rickett who tells that Dr. La Paz was recruited by CIC in Sept. of 1947 to help investigate the trajectory of the Roswell "disc". And who also meet with Dr. La Paz again in Sept. of 1948.

www.nicap.org...



posted on May, 24 2006 @ 06:48 PM
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Originally posted by lost_shaman
Excellent Read Skadi_the_Evil_Elf !!!

Very well done!

Can I say that I think that the Dr. La Paz UFO connection in New Mexico runs deeper though.

On July 10 ,1947 Dr. La Paz traveling with his family back to New Mexico from Oklahoma detours 100 miles south of his home and witnesses a "Flying Saucer" near Ft. Sumner ,NM. This sighting was detailed in a Life Magazine article May 5, 1952 .

www.nicap.org...

You might recognize that the Roswell incident was in full swing just one day before this on July 9th 1947.

Then there is also the testimony of CIC Master Sgt. Lewis "Bill" Rickett who tells that Dr. La Paz was recruited by CIC in Sept. of 1947 to help investigate the trajectory of the Roswell "disc". And who also meet with Dr. La Paz again in Sept. of 1948.

www.nicap.org...







Indeed, I am aware of the above connections of Dr. La Paz and Roswell. I also know that his involvement with UFOs didnt end there either. But I am glad you posted those links, as it helps flesh out the whole issue, and points to a possible continuity with the Roswell case. One theory I entertain of the green fireballs is perhaps some sort of scan or probe by the aliens to perhaps discover the fate of their missing spacecraft, perhaps even trying to locate it. But thats just my own personal speculation, and there are numerous other theories out there, so take it for what its worth.

La paz did indeed continue his own search into UFOs, and was joined by Astronomer Clyde Tombaugh, the man who discovered the planet Pluto, in some of them. He was also involved in the investigation of the 1964 Zamora UFO landing, even vouching for Zamora as a witness.



en.wikipedia.org...



posted on May, 25 2006 @ 06:45 PM
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Skadi ,

Here is a Project Stork Special Report written by Dr. J. Allen Hynek August 6, 1952 that mentions Dr. La Paz and the Green Fireballs. I find it interesting that Ruppelt , Hynek and Bluebook seemed to be unaware of the Green Fireballs considering that this had been the Air Forces own previous investigation.

www.cufon.org... ( Hynek's report is located roughly halfway down the page )




Astronomer LL, Dr. La Paz, has already had so much publicity in Life magazine that there appears to be no reason for keeping his name secret. He is the Director of the Institute of Meteoritics at the University of New Mexico, and is cooperative in the extreme. One sighting of his has been described in Life magazine and also fully in OSI reports. He has made extensive reports about the green fireball sightings in New Mexico in OSI reports also.

The discussion of green fireballs with many astronomers disclosed that most of them were of the opinion that those were natural objects. However, close questioning revealed that they knew nothing of the actual sightings, of their frequency or anything much about them, and therefore cannot be taken seriously. This is characteristic of scientists in general when speaking about subjects which are not in their own immediate field of concern. Dr. La Paz has on only one green fireball himself, but has been avid in collecting reports on the others. Because his full reports are in the OSI files, only the salient points will be discussed here. It appears that the green fireballs can be characterized by being extremely bright, most of them lighting up the sky in the day time, estimated magnitude -12, which is extremely bright. They appear to come in bunches and at one time 10 were observed in 13 days. No noise is associated with them despite their brightness. The light appears to be homogeneous, and their light curve resembles a square wave, that is, it comes on abruptly, remains constant while burning, and goes out exceedingly abruptly, as though it is snapped out by a push-button. They leave no trails or trains. As to their color, La Paz is aware of the fact that other meteors have a green color, but he insists that this is a different green, corresponding to the green line in the copper spectrum (5218 Angstrom units). These objects generally move in a preferential north-south, south-north direction.

If these data are correct, that is, if this many objects actually were seen, all extremely bright, all having this particular green color, all exhibiting no noise, all showing a preferential direction, all being homogeneous in light intensity, all snapping out very quickly, and all leaving no trails, then we can say with assurance that these were not astronomical objects. In the first place, any object as bright as this should have been reported from all over the world. This does not mean that any one object could have been seen all over the world, but if the earth in its orbit encountered, for some strange reason, a group of very large meteors, there is no reason that they should all show up in New Mexico. Besides, copper is not a plentiful element in meteors, and the typical fireball goes from dim to bright to very bright to bright and then fades out fairly fast, often breaking into many parts. They frequently leave a trail of smoke in the daytime and of luminescence at night. It is recommended that the OSI reports be obtained, and that the sightings of these fireballs be examined in detail.

If the data as reported by La Paz are correct, then we do have a strange phenomena here indeed.




Also of note here that Hynek's report despite the space given to Dr. La Paz and his standing with the Air Force , fails to rate him as a qualified observer.

Something else I had not noticed before , that later on in the wake of the Zamorra investigation Dr. La Paz accused Dr. Hynek and Bluebook and Air Force of being part of a Massive "Cover-up".



posted on May, 25 2006 @ 07:37 PM
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You are correct. Its something I left out for the sake of length and space, but you have done us a good service in posting about the Bluebook and Hynek connection. Hynek made his comments back when he was quietly towing the party line and himself was quite skeptical. The green fireballs did not make it to Bluebook. Niether did Roswell, even though it was within the time frame of Bluebook (Kenneth Arnold's sighting was the first Bluebook case listed, and that was one month before Roswell). The signifigance of this is the fact that all UFO cases of any sort that the air force was involved with were in Bluebooks files, even those that were classified as misidentifications, hoaxes, ect. So Roswell should have been in the Bluebook files, since it was a flying saucer incident that was later claimed to be a balloon by the air force, and classified under the category of balloon. Yet Roswell is completely absent from Sign, Bluebook, or any declassified air force investigation at the time. VERY interesting indeed. I mean, after all, bluebook included even the most obvious hoaxes and the most insignifigant UFO reports of all types.

La Paz was not the only one who suspected there was something to UFOs that the government was keeping quiet. Clyde Tombaugh, though more quiet, certainly believed UFOs were signifigant and possibly E.T., although because he had changed his position a couple times, people claim him a skeptic. However, his occasional changes to skepticism stemmed from the problem of contactees and hoaxers at the time, not from the actual evidence at hand.



posted on May, 27 2006 @ 12:21 AM
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"So Roswell should have been in the Bluebook files" == Skadi

At least one book about Roswell has made such a claim.

UFO Crash at Roswell, Randle and Schmitt, 1991 original title, re-released in 1994 as The Truth About the UFO Crash at Roswell,
claims there is a file in Blue Book (as released by the Government in 1976) on Roswell but is almost empty,
containing only one clipping.



posted on May, 27 2006 @ 11:31 AM
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Originally posted by nightwing
"So Roswell should have been in the Bluebook files" == Skadi

At least one book about Roswell has made such a claim.

UFO Crash at Roswell, Randle and Schmitt, 1991 original title, re-released in 1994 as The Truth About the UFO Crash at Roswell,
claims there is a file in Blue Book (as released by the Government in 1976) on Roswell but is almost empty,
containing only one clipping.


Very telling, eh?

But I did not know Blue Book had a roswell file. Ive never seen it in any of the published accounts on Blue Book.

One of the most interesting factors still remains the involvement of Ed Doty, Richard Doty's uncle, in the same area, 35 years later.



posted on May, 27 2006 @ 05:10 PM
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Originally posted by nightwing

UFO Crash at Roswell, Randle and Schmitt, 1991 original title, re-released in 1994 as The Truth About the UFO Crash at Roswell,
claims there is a file in Blue Book (as released by the Government in 1976) on Roswell but is almost empty,
containing only one clipping.


The clipping that was supposedly there in Bluebook was from July 9th 1947 from Chicago (UP) 'SAUCERS, IF ANY, FADING AWAY TO BLUE YONDER' that gives only one small paragraph relating to Roswell, stating " a blistering rebuke to Officers at Roswell air base for annoouncing yesterday that a "Flying Disc" had been found on a New Mexico Ranch. The "Disc" turned out to be remants of a Weather observation balloon , of a type used by the Army."


The National Archives states that there are no records in Project Bluebook which discuss the "Roswell Incident".


www.archives.gov...

The National Archives has been unable to locate any documentation among the Project BLUE BOOK records which discuss the 1947 incident in Roswell, New Mexico.





[edit on 27-5-2006 by lost_shaman]



posted on May, 27 2006 @ 07:34 PM
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"The clipping that was supposedly there in Bluebook was from July 5th 1947 from Circleville ,
Ohio that reported a RAWIN Target had been found by a local Farmer." == lost shaman

lost shaman, that is a SECOND claim made in the first book, but in the same paragraph as Roswell.
Oops, I just noticed you edited the Circleville, Ohio comment and upgraded it to the real reference,
but it is 10 July, I believe, and is from the Idaho Daily News.
Quote : The gvt. cover up extends to the public records of the Air Force UFO investigation as well.
These records were released in 1976, and the file on Roswell contains but a single press clipping.
No letters, no investigative forms, no official weather balloon explanation, nothing but that lone clipping.
The file for the recovery of an actual weather balloon in Circleville, Ohio, a week before the Roswell event
contains far more documentation on its particulars. Where is the material that should be in the Roswell file ?
Unquote.

When challenged on these claims by Robert Todd, the response from Schmitt was none while Randle
made the following response published Sept 22 1995 by Todd in his newsletter.

Quote: I went back and re-read page 7 and realized that it wasn't as clear as it could have been. There
is no file in Blue Book that relates to Roswell specifically. The only mention of Roswell actually appears in a
newspaper clipping for a case from Idaho on July 10, 1947. Unquote.

And the response on Circleville

Quote: I also see that I didn't make it clear that the "file" on Circleville is not part of the Blue Book system
other than a mention inside another case in the newspaper clippings that are filed with it. We meant that the
clipping on Circleville contains more detail. Unquote.

My whole point for bringing this up is that nobody seems to want to examine what they find. The July
10, 1947 clipping all by itself contains the reason to never have included Roswell itself. And its all
right there in Blue Book. (Good quote, lost shaman)

But back on the main topic, I do not believe the "Green Fireball" phenomena went away. They are
still occasionally seen.



posted on May, 27 2006 @ 09:07 PM
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Originally posted by nightwing

My whole point for bringing this up is that nobody seems to want to examine what they find. The July
10, 1947 clipping all by itself contains the reason to never have included Roswell itself. And its all
right there in Blue Book. (Good quote, lost shaman)


Well that's not exactly true, as Skadi has pointed out it was in the Timeline to have been included and Bluebook did not exclude reports becuase they had been "Identified" later as Weather Balloons. Just the opposite was the case, Bluebook was attempting to show all cases could be explained in the Prosaic and Roswell would have fit in perfectly with this agenda.




The Date of the Clipping in question may be July 10th 1947 , but the story is a reprodution of the Chicago (UP) July 9th 1947 Story. I also quoted Robert Todds September 22, 1995 "Cowflop Alert".

www.roswellfiles.com...


Originally posted by nightwing

But back on the main topic, I do not believe the "Green Fireball" phenomena went away. They are still occasionally seen.


Ruppelt recounts in Chapter four of his book " Report on Unidentified Flying Objects ", the recurrence of "Green Fireballs " in 1954. So they obviously were not a one wave event , but even in this case New Mexico is the destination of the "Green Fireball".

www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk...



posted on May, 27 2006 @ 09:26 PM
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Skadi-
I have seen this phenomenon firsthand. While on deployment to Kirtland AFB in the late 90's.

I was in a car with another co-worker, on the flightline near the north end of the base. It was about midnight, or shortly thereafter. We were both "guarding" a large national asset, and were just trying to keep each other awake.

While both in the front seat, reclining back, when we both witnessed a very large meteor streak across the sky for about 1-2 seconds. What made this meteor unusual was that it was bright green, and very bright. The color was a whitish-green, like a green firework.

We both said at the same time "Did you see that?" and then laughted. A lot of UFO talk and good-natured banther then ensured, which worked out well as it kept us awake for what was a lengthy and uneventful watch.

An inquiry with a senior researcher at Sandia National Labs revealed to us that this was a fair common observance - the area was know for years to exhibit these green shooting stars. Astronomers had yet been able to fully explain why the color variation existed, but they theorized it had something to do with the content of the dust that circulated in the upper atmosphere. Allegedly, the green meteors are more common during those times of the year when there are high winds, which blow the desert sand and dust everywhere.

All who where asked about it said they are certainly meteors. But nobody was sure why they are occasionally green.

P



posted on May, 27 2006 @ 11:02 PM
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"Well that's not exactly true" == lost shaman

Its intended to be a deductive truism. Example:

It is a hard fact (truth) that the sun rose this morning.

It is a deductive truism that the sun will rise tomorrow morning. We plan our
lives around such deductive truisms.

Now here is where we get Skadi to offer some experiance, (deductive truisms)
based upon her past military experiance.

Lets say Skadi is in Capt Ruppelt's position. It has been made clear that
"a blistering rebuke to Officers at Roswell air base for announcing yesterday that a "Flying Disc" had been found on a New Mexico Ranch.
The "Disc" turned out to be remnants of a Weather observation balloon , of a type used by the Army"

So, Skadi, you are back in the military for a moment. Now, how would you "handle" Roswell assuming the above newstory quote is
your main input for Roswell, and just knowing what you do about the military ?



posted on May, 27 2006 @ 11:20 PM
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"I have seen this phenomenon firsthand. While on deployment to Kirtland AFB in the late 90's. " == Pyros

Thank you, Pyros. Thats exactly what I was fishing for. I know a couple of folks who could make such statements,
including myself. The one I saw was observed from about 60 miles south of Roswell, in the summer of 1966.



posted on Jun, 1 2006 @ 11:52 AM
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Originally posted by Pyros
Skadi-
I have seen this phenomenon firsthand. While on deployment to Kirtland AFB in the late 90's.

I was in a car with another co-worker, on the flightline near the north end of the base. It was about midnight, or shortly thereafter. We were both "guarding" a large national asset, and were just trying to keep each other awake.

While both in the front seat, reclining back, when we both witnessed a very large meteor streak across the sky for about 1-2 seconds. What made this meteor unusual was that it was bright green, and very bright. The color was a whitish-green, like a green firework.

We both said at the same time "Did you see that?" and then laughted. A lot of UFO talk and good-natured banther then ensured, which worked out well as it kept us awake for what was a lengthy and uneventful watch.

An inquiry with a senior researcher at Sandia National Labs revealed to us that this was a fair common observance - the area was know for years to exhibit these green shooting stars. Astronomers had yet been able to fully explain why the color variation existed, but they theorized it had something to do with the content of the dust that circulated in the upper atmosphere. Allegedly, the green meteors are more common during those times of the year when there are high winds, which blow the desert sand and dust everywhere.

All who where asked about it said they are certainly meteors. But nobody was sure why they are occasionally green.

P


You saw one? You and Nightwing both have.

I highly doubt they are meteors though. The best scientific minds have basically ruled them out. never once has one been recovered. The fact that the only place they are seen is in this one area of New mexico also rules out meteors. meteors dont stick with one geographuc area.

the fact that both of you have seen one in the same area years later deepends the mystery. Why only this bracket of the world, with Soccoro, Roswell, Las Vegas, Kirtland, Almagordo, White sands, and Los Alamos being the places frequented most? meteors, I do not believe they are. The enigma still lives!

I have never seen one, because Ive never been to New mexico except driving through. But since you have brought it up, I do have a story related to me from my battery commander when I was in the army.

The Captian, whose name Ill not mention for alot of obvious reasons, was an Air defense officer. The headquarters for the U.S. Army air defense is in Ft Bliss, Texas. However, its quite common for alot of them to go over to white sands for further training and such.

When my Capatian was but a lieutenant, he and some officers were staying in some barracks in the White Sands area for some sort of training class. They were all gathered in the dayroom one night, playing cards. The night was clear, no storms or anything. Then suddenly, the lights went out. One of the officers took a flashlight to go check the circuitbreakers. he touched the metal door on the box and recieved the shock of his life. Immediately, the other officer were worried, and went outside to see if some powerlines had been downed or something. They were surprised to find, off in the distance in the mountains/hills, the ridgeline was glowing a very weird green color. Eventually, the green glow vanished. The lights came back on eventually with no help.

They called the CQ, who was also puzzled by the outage. It was in all the barracks. Also, they noticed that the clocks had stopped, even though the clocks themselves did not run off the main power. No explaination was ever given.

I do not know if this has anything to do with the green fireballs. The only resemblance was the weird glowing light beyond the mountains/hills.

Back to the green fireballs. Another peculiarity is the presence of copper in the dust samples, something which is never found in any meteor dust collection or meteor. Another puzzle.

But thank you both for hsaring your sightings. The green fireballs remain an enigma.



So, Skadi, you are back in the military for a moment. Now, how would you "handle" Roswell assuming the above newstory quote is


If were Ruppelt, and I saw the Roswell newsclipping, I would have still included it along with a properly filled out form regarding the incident and would have put under probable solution, a weather balloon. It wouldn't have affected how I filed the incident, since alot of Bluebook data was still classified. Also, the fact that it had happened a good 5 years before and thus, alot of those involved were probably out of the military or off somewhere else. I myself would have severely questioned the story in the clipping for alot of reasons, one being my experience on how the military will cover up just about anything (including faking paperwork for something as piddly as an operator level equipment inspection to avoid the wrath of an I.G. inspector and his wicked pen and stack of paperwork). I may not have drawn the same conclusions I do now with what I know about Roswell, but I would have suspected that there was something more to the story, tho not necessarily an alien aspect.
But Roswell would have had a fully filled out sheet, because my own experience, when your unit is due for an inspection from the paperpushers brigadge, there is nothing those vultures love more than to slow roast you because you incorrectly filled out a form, or....goddess forbid....you didnt fill one out at all!



posted on Jun, 9 2006 @ 12:43 AM
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Interesting story, can't help but comment, but I mean no offense.

"The only resemblance was the weird glowing light beyond the mountains/hills. " == Skadi
Since this is El Paso, the ONLY hills easily visible are the south end of the San Andres Mountains, which actually bisect El Paso as it has grown.
The phenomena you describe was first sorta described by Gene Rhodes in his "Cowboy Fiction". I believe he is the first to coin the
phrase "Rainbow Ridges" in the San Andres.

Excerpt from his biography: Quote
Famed New Mexico author Gene Rhodes
Gene Rhodes "by age 16, he was accomplished as a stone mason, road builder (he built the first road from Engle to Tularosa, over the San Andres Mountains)"
"Bernard DeVoto praised Rhodes' works as "the only body of fiction devoted to the cattle kingdom which is both true to it and written by an artist in prose"
Unquote

"One of the officers took a flashlight to go check the circuitbreakers. he touched the metal door on the box and recieved the shock of his life. " == Skadi
While it makes a good story, some things are as close to improbable as to be impossible. There are reasons why things like power are governed by
required building practices like the Electrical Code.
As to the power outage itself, they do occur and tend to propagate in the area. El Paso is, I believe, still the source for that area and WSMR and Holloman.

"If I were Ruppelt, and I saw the Roswell newsclipping, I would have still included it along with a properly filled out form regarding the incident and would have
put under probable solution, a weather balloon. " == Skadi
I agree this would have been a logical thing to do, but what priority would it have if you were snowed with current work instead of "historical" filing ? If time
is limited, do you not work priority tasks first, and past history would be what priority ?

"my own experience, when your unit is due for an inspection from the paperpushers brigadge, there is nothing those vultures love more than to slow roast you
because you incorrectly filled out a form, or....goddess forbid....you didnt fill one out at all" == Skadi
Having been a vulture, I see things differently. And I will use your own words to let you in on a little secret. Here is what the vultures truly feed on as carrion:
"one being my experience on how the military will cover up just about anything (including faking paperwork for something as piddly as an operator level
equipment inspection to avoid the wrath of an I.G. inspector and his wicked pen and stack of paperwork" == Skadi

"I may not have drawn the same conclusions I do now with what I know about Roswell, but I would have suspected that there was something more to the story, tho not
necessarily an alien aspect." == Skadi
So in other words, without an alien aspect, you could not draw the same conclusions you do now ? I see. Like Ruppelt,
it either makes it as a balloon historical, if time, or not in the files at all.

Apology for missing your reply. I did not expect one, thank you.



posted on Jun, 10 2006 @ 03:53 PM
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Originally posted by nightwing
Interesting story, can't help but comment, but I mean no offense.

"The only resemblance was the weird glowing light beyond the mountains/hills. " == Skadi
Since this is El Paso, the ONLY hills easily visible are the south end of the San Andres Mountains, which actually bisect El Paso as it has grown.
The phenomena you describe was first sorta described by Gene Rhodes in his "Cowboy Fiction". I believe he is the first to coin the
phrase "Rainbow Ridges" in the San Andres.


He was not in El Paso at the time. They were out somewhere near White Sands, from what I remember. Don't remember the exact place. I was a generator mechanic, and thus, did not ever travel to Ft. Bliss or White Sands. Im simply relaying as I remember it told to me. And I take no offense either for your questions. They are fair enough, and are delivered in honest inquiry. Perhaps I was not told the truth. Who knows? But I had no reason to disbelieve the story, hence why I felt it fit to post it.


Excerpt from his biography: Quote
Famed New Mexico author Gene Rhodes
Gene Rhodes "by age 16, he was accomplished as a stone mason, road builder (he built the first road from Engle to Tularosa, over the San Andres Mountains)"
"Bernard DeVoto praised Rhodes' works as "the only body of fiction devoted to the cattle kingdom which is both true to it and written by an artist in prose"
Unquote


Never heard of this guy. But Ive never had much interest in cowboys or wild west stories, so I am not familiar with it.


"One of the officers took a flashlight to go check the circuitbreakers. he touched the metal door on the box and recieved the shock of his life. " == Skadi
While it makes a good story, some things are as close to improbable as to be impossible. There are reasons why things like power are governed by
required building practices like the Electrical Code.


Although the story seems improbable, so are alot of other reports of UFO activity and such. So improbable doesn't rule out anything for me when investigating weird or unusual phenomenon. And since I was a sort of electrician myself, it is not totally impossible for a person to be shocked touching a circuit breaker box. Extreme static electricity build up, major short, poor grounding, faulty insulation are many mundane things that could cause such things. My memory does remind me that not all military facilities are in the best repair.



As to the power outage itself, they do occur and tend to propagate in the area. El Paso is, I believe, still the source for that area and WSMR and Holloman.


Doesn't surprise me. Some of my friends that went to El Paso said that power outages were pretty common. But the stopping of the battery operated wallclock and the green glow tend to make me think there was more to it than a simple power outage.


"If I were Ruppelt, and I saw the Roswell newsclipping, I would have still included it along with a properly filled out form regarding the incident and would have
put under probable solution, a weather balloon. " == Skadi
I agree this would have been a logical thing to do, but what priority would it have if you were snowed with current work instead of "historical" filing ? If time
is limited, do you not work priority tasks first, and past history would be what priority ?
From what I have read, Ruppelt was dedicated enough to his work and quite meticulous in his record keeping, so I highly doubt he would have left something so unfinished.

quote]"my own experience, when your unit is due for an inspection from the paperpushers brigadge, there is nothing those vultures love more than to slow roast you
because you incorrectly filled out a form, or....goddess forbid....you didnt fill one out at all" == Skadi
Having been a vulture, I see things differently. And I will use your own words to let you in on a little secret. Here is what the vultures truly feed on as carrion:
"one being my experience on how the military will cover up just about anything (including faking paperwork for something as piddly as an operator level
equipment inspection to avoid the wrath of an I.G. inspector and his wicked pen and stack of paperwork" == Skadi

You were one of THEM??????????????????? UGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A pox on you!



"I may not have drawn the same conclusions I do now with what I know about Roswell, but I would have suspected that there was something more to the story, tho not
necessarily an alien aspect." == Skadi
So in other words, without an alien aspect, you could not draw the same conclusions you do now ? I see. Like Ruppelt,
it either makes it as a balloon historical, if time, or not in the files at all.


No. I said that if I had seen it, from Ruppelt's standpoint, it would still have been worthy of filing and a bit of investigation. What I mean by alien aspect is the information we have on Roswell today. In 1952, Ruppelt would not have had access to such information. But the fact that only a newspaper clipping and not a properly filled out form would have certainly raised by brows a bit and made me pretty damn suspicous enough that Id do a bit of an inquiry just to have more data to put it in my file.


Apology for missing your reply. I did not expect one, thank you.


Not a problem. I figured, since everyone was much more interested in crackpot alien channeled messages of doom and other inane crap that this thread would sink and be forgotten, and was as surprised as you are to discover that anyone had bothered to reply at all.



posted on Jun, 12 2006 @ 01:36 PM
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I found on-line some News Paper Articles about Green Fireballs that quote Dr. La Paz.


six.pairlist.net...

Paper: Traverse City Record Eagle
City: Traverse City, Michigan
Date: Wednesday, November 21, 1951
Page: 11

New Fireball Crosses Sky

ALBUQUERQUE, N.M., Nov. 21 - (UP) - A bright green fireball sizzled
across southwestern skies last night, displaying "all the characteristics"
of eight other flaming objects that have puzzled meteorologists and
residents of four states during the past three weeks.
Dr. Lincoln La Paz, head of the New Mexico University Institute of
Meteoritics, said the latest fireball was sighted about 8:42 p.m.
Pilots of two air force planes and a Transworld Airliner pilot first
reported the latest phenomenon. But the meteorologist said a later check
revealed the object had been sighted from points as distant as Dodge City,
Kan., and Lubbock and Big Springs, Texas.
The fireball, La Paz said, gave off an intense light and was described
as being "livid green" in color.
During the past three weeks, eight others have whizzed over the states
of Texas, Oklahoma, Arizona and New Mexico. Severla of them were sighted in
two or three states at the same time.
Search paries sent out to find the poit of impact of the meteors have
failed to turn up anything.
"Those things seem to know when to go out," La Paz said.
He explained that he thought the fireballs either vaporized or
disintegrated before striking earth.
Institute officials termed the recent display "without parallel in the
whole of recorded history."
La Paz said the normal rate of firebals was one every three or four
months, and added, "In the whole of recorded history, I've never heard
anything like it."




Also I found another Article on this site that doesn't have to do with Green Fireballs , but Dr. La Paz makes an interesting and telling statment here.


six.pairlist.net...


Paper: Mansfield News Journal
City: Mansfield, Ohio
Date: September 21, 1952
Page: 8-C




Dr. Lincoln La Paz, associate editor of the book and head of the UNM
meteoritics department, goes even farther.
"The next step probably will be sending men up in the rocket." La Paz
said. "It may well have happened already - although that's only an educated
guess."



Another thing is the first article appeared in the paper a week before the Final Report for Project Twinkle. So that shows that the Phenomena was still in full swing at the same time Project Twinkle was writting the phenomena off.


[edit on 12-6-2006 by lost_shaman]



posted on Jun, 12 2006 @ 01:45 PM
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Great find, Lost Shaman!

I personally think Project twinkle was shut down because there was probably an even more secret group, perhaps MJ-12 or something similar, who already knew the answer or was studying it.



Institute officials termed the recent display "without parallel in the
whole of recorded history."
La Paz said the normal rate of firebals was one every three or four
months, and added, "In the whole of recorded history, I've never heard
anything like it."


I think this part here is the most telling comment. We have thousands of years of recorded history, with many civilizations who were very much into astronomy, and not once was a case of a green fireball with the characteristics of the ones sighted in New Mexico ever recorded. We have loads of historical records that show normal fireballs, meteor showers, comets, meteor strikes, even a supernova. But no silent, low atmosphereic traveling green fireballs that perform strange maneuvers.

I think this in itself makes the theory that they are just normal or unusual meteoric fireballs the least likely answer to this dilema.



posted on Jun, 18 2006 @ 01:26 AM
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"I figured, since everyone was much more interested in crackpot alien channeled messages of doom and other
inane crap that this thread would sink and be forgotten, and was as surprised as you are to discover that anyone had bothered to reply at all." == Skadi

Anyone truly interested in inquiry into anomalous phenomena is probably better served learning to work under this fantasy smokescreen.
There really are not many left, but they tend to interact easier than you think by taking advantage of the camoflage.
Part of it is knowing what and where to look and another part is being alert. And sometimes the smokescreen works so well that really, really good information is never even noticed because of the BS level maintained here and other places. For
example, read starting with burroj2 on page three. This one area alone was worth puking over months of inane crap alien channeled messages for preparation "H". Talk about putting a B-52 in UNDER the radar. WOW. (Very few even noticed,
but do you see anyone there you recognize ? Uh....on second thought, don't answer that.)
www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 18-6-2006 by nightwing]

[edit on 18-6-2006 by nightwing]

[edit on 18-6-2006 by nightwing]



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