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The Origins and Evolution of the Palestine Problem

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posted on May, 24 2006 @ 03:15 AM
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daedalas had asked for the background of the Palestinian problem and because I've researched this currently important topic, I'm starting this thread with a summary from UNISPAL. UNISPAL is the United Nations Information System on the Question of Palestine; it is a must read but lengthy so here's the summary I made of it:

UNISPAL

The Origins and Evolution of the Palestine Problem




The Palestine problem became an international issue towards the end of WWI with the disintegration of the Turkish Ottoman Empire. Palestine was among the several former Ottoman Arab territories which were placed under the administration of Great Britain under the Mandates System adopted by the League of Nations pursuant to the League's Covenant. All but one of these Mandated Territories became fully independent states, as anticipated. The exception was Palestine where, instead of being limited to "the rendering of administrative assistance and advice" the Mandate had as a primary objective the implementation of the "Balfour Declaration" issued by the British Government in 1917.

This declaration was the direct outcome of a sustained effort by the Zionist Organization and its founder Theodor Herzl. The goal of zionism from the start was the establishment of a Jewish State in Palestine. The rights of the people of Palestine themselves received no attention in these plans. Three features of the Balfour Declaration draw attention: one is that evidently it was not in accordance with the spirit of the pledges of independence given to the Arabs both before and after it was issued. The second is that the disposition of Palestine was determined in close consultation with a political organization whose declared aim was to settle non-Palestinians in Palestine. Not only did this ignore the interests of the native Palestinians, but it was a deliberate violation of their rights. The third is that through the Declaration the British government made commitments to the Zionist Organization regarding the land of the Palestinians at a moment when it was still formally part of the Ottoman Empire. When the question of the British Mandate over Palestine was discussed in the British Parliament, it became clear that opinion in the House of Lords was strongly opposed to the Balfour policy, as illustrated by the words of Lord Sydenham in reply to Lord Balfour: "... the harm done by dumping down an alien population upon an Arab country - Arab all around in the hinterland - may never be remedied ... what we have done is, by concessions, not to the Jewish people but to a Zionist extreme section, to start a running sore in the East, and no one can tell how far that sore will extend." How prophetic. The House of Lords voted to repeal the Balfour Declaration, but a similar motion was defeated in the House of Commons and the British Government formally accepted the Mandate.

During the years of the Palestine Mandate, from 1922 to 1947, large-scale Jewish immigration from abroad, mainly from Eastern Europe took place, the numbers swelling in the 1930s with the Nazi persecution of Jewish populations. Palestinian demands for independence and resistance to Jewish immigration led to a rebellion in 1937, followed by continuing terrorism and violence from both sides during and immediately after World War II. The Jewish community resented the Land Transfers Regulations and the measures taken against unauthorized immigration. In 1942, a small group of Zionist extremists, led by Abraham Stern, came into prominence with a series of politically motivated murders and robberies in the Tel Aviv area. In the following year there came to light a widespread conspiracy, connected with Haganah (an illegal military formation controlled by the Jewish Agency), for stealing arms and ammunition from the British forces in the Middle East. In August 1944, the British High Commissioner narrowly escaped death in an ambush outside Jerusalem. Three months later, Lord Moyne, the British Minister of State in the Middle East was assassinated in Cairo by two members of the Stern group. A third illegal Jewish organization, the Irgun Tzeva'i Leumi, was responsible for much destruction of government property during 1944. In July 1946, the campaign conducted by terrorist organizations reached a new climax with an explosion which wrecked a wing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, containing the offices of the Government Secretariat as well as part of military headquarters, and killed 86 public servants. This campaign of terror against Palestinian Arabs and the British reached such proportions that even Churchill, a strong supporter of Zionist aims and at that time Prime Minister called these atrocities “wicked activities”.

(con'd)
UNISPAL

Mod Edit: Inserted soruce URL

[edit on 5/24/06 by FredT]




posted on May, 24 2006 @ 03:16 AM
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Great Britain tried to implement various formulas to bring independence to a land ravaged by violence. The Zionists were conducting an aggressive campaign with the object of securing by force a country which was not theirs by birthright. The struggle of the Arabs of Palestine against Zionism had nothing in common with anti-Semitism. The Arab world had been one of the rare havens of refuge for the Jews until the atmosphere of neighbourliness had been poisoned by the Balfour Declaration and by the aggressive spirit which the latter had engendered in the Jewish community. The UK had held Palestine by armed force and had compelled the inhabitants to submit to Jewish immigration on a scale which threatened ultimately to convert the Palestinian Arabs into a political minority. The population in Palestine at the end of WWI had been 93% Arab and 7% Jewish, but the form of aggression had raised the Jewish population to 33%. It had been said that the persecution of the European Jews gave them a claim to unlimited immigration into Palestine. It had also been stated that the Jews themselves passionately desired to go to Palestine and were unwilling to be absorbed into any other country.

In 1947, Great Britain, in frustration, turned the problem over to the UN. After looking at various alternatives, the UN proposed the partitioning of Palestine into two independent States, one Palestinian Arab and the other Jewish, with Jerusalem internationalized. As the British government progressively disengaged from Palestine, and the UN was unable to replace it as an effective governing authority, the Zionist movement moved to establish control over the territory of the nascent Jewish State. At the same time the bordering Arab States made clear that they would intervene. From writings of Zionist leaders, it is evident that Zionist policy was to occupy, during the period of withdrawal, as much territory as possible including the West Bank beyond the boundaries assigned to the Jewish State by the partition resolution. Proclaiming its independence as Israel, during the 1948 war it expanded to occupy 77 per cent of the territory of Palestine. Israel also occupied the larger part of Jerusalem. Over half of the indigenous Palestinian population fled or were expelled. Jordan and Egypt occupied the other parts of the territory assigned by the partition resolution to the Palestinian Arab State which did not come into being. The terrorizing of the civilian population through military or psychological means was an integral part of this policy of expelling Palestinians, and again I cite Zionist writings:

"... Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country ... We shall not achieve our goal of being an independent people with the Arabs in this small country. The only solution is a Palestine, at least western Palestine (west of the Jordan river) without Arabs ... And there is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries, to transfer all of them; not one village, not one tribe, should be left ... Only after this transfer will the country be able to absorb the millions of our own brethren. There is no other way out;..." (Joseph Weitz, 1948)

A former Israeli military governor of Jerusalem wrote: "We suffered a reverse of a different nature when combined Etzel and Stern Gang units mounted a deliberate and unprovoked attack on the Arab village of Deir Yassin on the western edge of Jerusalem. There was no reason for the attack. It was a quiet village, which had denied entry to the volunteer Arab units from across the frontier and which had not been involved in any attacks on Jewish areas. The dissident groups chose it for strictly political reasons. It was a deliberate act of terrorism ...”

The terror that spread among the Palestinian population was a crucial factor affecting developments in Palestine. It led to a mass exodus of refugees into neighbouring countries. The number of Palestinian refugees resulting from these hostilities were estimated to number 726,000 by the end of 1949 - half the indigenous population of Palestine. During the preceding months, Jewish forces had moved to occupy key cities and areas in the territory designated for the Arab State. No Jewish settlement, however remote, was entered or seized by the Arabs, while the Haganah captured many Arab positions. The major part of Jerusalem meant to be internationalized under the partition plan, had also been occupied by Jewish forces. Furthermore, they moved to occupy further territory beyond the boundaries specified by the Partition resolution.

(con'd)



posted on May, 24 2006 @ 03:17 AM
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In April of 1950, the West Bank was brought formally under Jordanian control. The Palestine issue widened into a broader Arab-Israel conflict, as feared by many who had anticipated the consequences of the establishment of Israel in Palestine against the opposition of the Palestinian Arab majority. The 1956 Suez war was one outcome of this dispute, although not directly involving the Palestine issue or territory. The Arab-Israeli war of June 1967, however, brought immediate and direct repercussions on the Palestine question. Israel occupied the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem as well as territories beyond to control far more than the area claimed by the World Zionist Organization in 1919, except for the East Bank of the Jordan. In the 1967 war, Israel occupied the remaining territory of Palestine, until then under Jordanian and Egyptian control (the West Bank and Gaza Strip). This included the remaining part of Jerusalem, which was subsequently annexed by Israel. The war brought about a second exodus of Palestinians. In June 1967, of about 2.7 million persons of Palestinian origin, about 1.7 lived in Israel or the occupied territories - about 1 million in the West Bank, 400,000 in the Gaza Strip and 300,000 in the areas controlled by Israel. As a result of the war, almost half a million fled their homes, leaving about 900,000 Palestinians in the areas newly occupied by Israel, a total of 1.2 million under Israeli control. One million five hundred thousand were refugees in exile - in countries other than their own, their homeland under the control of the Jewish State. Security Council resolution 242 in November of 1967 called on Israel to withdraw from territories it had occupied in the 1967 conflict.

In 1974, the General Assembly reaffirmed the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people to self-determination, national independence and sovereignty, and to return. The following year, the General Assembly established the Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People and it conferred on the PLO the status of observer in the Assembly and in other international conferences held under United Nations auspices. Events on the ground, however, remained on a negative course.

The General Assembly repeatedly passed resolutions criticizing Israel's actions in the occupied territories. The resolution that it had passed in 1977, in terms reflecting those passed in preceding years, stated that the Assembly “Condemns the following Israeli policies and practices:
"(a) The annexation of parts of the occupied territories;
"(b) The establishment of Israeli settlements therein and the transfer of an alien population thereto;
"(c) The evacuation, deportation, expulsion, displacement and transfer of Arab inhabitants of the occupied territories, and the denial of their right of return;
"(d) The confiscation and expropriation of Arab property in the occupied territories and all other transactions for the acquisition of land involving the Israeli authorities, institutions or nationals on the one hand, and the inhabitants or institutions of the occupied territories on the other;
"(e) The destruction and demolition of Arab houses;
"(f) Mass arrests, administrative detention and ill-treatment of the Arab population;
"(g) The ill-treatment and torture of persons under detention;
"(h) The pillaging of archaeological and cultural property;
"(i) The interference with religious freedoms and practices as well as family rights and customs;
"(j) The illegal exploitation of the natural wealth, resources and population of the occupied territories."

On September the 1st, 1982, President Reagan made detailed proposals summarizing the position of the United States of America regarding a comprehensive Middle East settlement which, in the view of the United States government, would take into account the preoccupation of all parties and would respond to the legitimate rights of the Palestinian people. Self-government by the Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza, in association with Jordan, offered the best chance for a durable, just and lasting peace. This approach was based on the principle that the Arab-Israeli conflict should be resolved through negotiations involving an exchange of territory for peace. He remained convinced that Jerusalem must remain undivided, but its final status should be decided through negotiations. However, these proposals were immediately rejected by Israel.

In June 1982, Israel invaded Lebanon with the declared intention to eliminate the PLO. A cease-fire was arranged. PLO troops withdrew from Beirut and were transferred to neighbouring countries after guarantees of safety were provided for thousands of Palestinian refugees left behind. Subsequently, a large-scale massacre of refugees took place in the camps of Sabra and Shatila.

(con'd)



posted on May, 24 2006 @ 03:18 AM
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On September the 15th, Bashir Gemayel, President-elect of Lebanon, was assassinated shortly after the withdrawal of the multinational troops. Early on the same day, Israeli forces advanced into West Beirut. By September the 16th the Israeli army had established its control of most of the West Beirut sector of the city and took up positions around the Palestinian refugee camps. The following day the Security Council unanimously adopted resolution 520 condemning the recent incursions by Israel into Beirut in violation of the cease-fire agreements and of Security Council resolutions.

On September the 17th reports were received that armed men had the previous evening entered the Sabra and Shatila Palestinian refugee camps in West Beirut and were engaging in wholesale killing of the civilian population. On September the 18th it was confirmed that a large-scale massacre had taken place in the refugee camps. A large number of bodies of men, women and children were found, some of them mutilated, many of them apparently killed while trying to escape; many homes had been blown up with their occupants still inside; there also appeared to be a mass grave on the perimeter of one of the camps.

The Israeli policies of expropriation of Palestinian land in the occupied territory, construction of new settlements and improvement and "thickening" of the existing ones went on unabated from 1984 to 1988. To acquire Palestinian land the Israeli authorities and the settlement movement continued to resort to various techniques. These include the long-established practice of confiscating land and declaring it "closed" for military training purposes, declaring Palestinian land as "State land", expropriating land for "public (Jewish) use" or confiscating it for "nature preserves". The impact this policy had on the Palestinians was illustrated by the findings, contained in a 1988 report of the United States Department of State, which summarized the land situation in the occupied territory as follows:

"The use of land by Israeli authorities for military purposes, roads, settlements, and other Israeli purposes which restrict access by Palestinians, discriminates against Palestinians and adversely affects their lives and economic activities. Approximately 2.5 per cent of the total area of the West Bank and East Jerusalem has been turned over to Israeli nationals for residential, agricultural, and industrial use by settlers. Palestinians do not participate in the Higher Planning Council, which plans land use in the territories and exercises certain powers transferred from local, municipal, and village councils in 1971."

Reports from the occupied territory clearly indicated that the Israeli authorities made intensive efforts, within the framework of a new plan designed to increase the number of Jewish settlers in the occupied West Bank, to raise their number to the equivalent of 40% of the total Arab population. This information was revealed by one of the Israeli Prime Minister's advisers on December the 3rd 1987 and was later confirmed by the Chairman of the World Zionist Organization's Settlement Department, when he said at a press conference on December the 5th at the Gush Emunim settlement of Elon Moreh, near Nablus, that "Israel's objective in the West Bank [was] to raise the proportion of Jews to 40 to 60 per cent of the total population of the occupied West Bank by the end of the present century". During the same press conference, he also stated that preparations were under way in Israel for the settlement of a further million and a half Jewish settlers in the occupied West Bank during the next 12 months and that the settlement plans and projects were ready to be implemented in different areas of the occupied West Bank. Similar pronouncements on the subject of increased settlement were made by Mattityahu Drobles, Chairman of the Jewish Agency's Settlement Department, who had drawn up a new settlement project covering the period up to the year 2000. This plan, called "Climb the mountain and open up the desert", was first introduced at the International Zionist Conference held in December 1987 in Jerusalem. The plan provided for the establishment of dozens of new Jewish settlements on the mountain ranges of various parts of the occupied West Bank at the expense of the indigenous Palestinian lands.

(con'd)



posted on May, 24 2006 @ 03:19 AM
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During this time, the Palestinian problem entered a new phase. The massive uprising (intifadah) of the Palestinian population erupted early that month in the occupied Gaza Strip and then spread to the rest of the occupied territory. On December the 8th, four Palestinians died and nine others were injured after an Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) truck struck their vans at an army road block in the Gaza Strip. The Palestinians believed that the deaths were deliberately caused and popular protests followed. The Israeli forces began to use live ammunition against the Palestinian protesters which resulted in high casualties on the Palestinian side. Following these intense Gaza protests the Palestinian popular uprising flared up in the West Bank and Jerusalem. To subdue and disperse the all-out Palestinian protest demonstrations, IDF, special forces, police and Jewish settlers used live ammunition, indiscriminate beatings of Palestinians, as well as other means of repression.

Israeli occupation authorities, despite the world-wide condemnation of their practices in the occupied territory, persisted in the "iron-fist" policy against the Palestinians. Methods used by the Israeli forces in the occupied West Bank and the Gaza Strip in dealing with the popular uprising resulted in mass injuries and heavy loss of life among the civilian Palestinian population including children, women and the elderly. The reliance of the Israeli military on certain types of tear gas in high concentrations was from the start of the intifadah the cause of numerous deaths and miscarriages among pregnant Palestinian women and deaths among children. Palestinians were constantly subjected to the indiscriminate beatings and other forms of physical abuse by IDF and GSS personnel. They were also exposed to attacks, at times violent, by the Israeli settlers. Curfews, collective punishment, demolition of houses, detentions and deportations of the Palestinians became standard practice of the Israeli authorities. Over 450 Palestinians were reported to have been killed by the Israeli troops, over 20,000 wounded or injured and 51 deported from the occupied territory by the Israeli authorities. Thousands of Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza Strip were detained for different periods of time.

Israel's violations of the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people in the occupied Palestinian territory have been sharply criticized and condemned by the international community. The United States Department of State, in its 1988 report, indicated that, in the view of the United States Government, certain Israeli policies and practices contravened the provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention. These violations include deportations of Palestinian civilians that became more frequent in 1988 than in 1987, transferring prisoners from the occupied territories and house demolitions as a punishment for families. This report cited serious violations of the Palestinians' rights by the Israeli authorities. According to the report, the response of IDF to the intifadah "led to a substantial increase in human rights violations". The Department of State in this report stated that the Israeli soldiers, in trying to control the uprising, "frequently used gunfire in situations that did not present mortal danger to troops, causing many avoidable deaths and injuries". Reported were "five cases in 1988 in which unarmed Palestinians in detention died under questionable circumstances or were clearly killed by the detaining officials". Reference was also made to the reports of beatings of suspects and detainees, and of "harsh and demeaning treatment of prisoners and detainees". Particularly severe abuse of Palestinian prisoners was reported at the new facility of Dahiriya. In late January and February Palestinian and foreign physicians, human rights organizations, and the international and Israeli press reported widespread incidents in which IDF troops used clubs to break limbs and beat Palestinians who were not directly involved in disturbances or resisting arrest. Soldiers turned many people out of their homes at night, making them stand for hours, and rounded up men and boys and beat them in reprisal for stone-throwing." The report said that Palestinian children were treated by the Israeli authorities as adults in security offences. To conceal the above-mentioned practices from the international community, and in part to stop the continuing intifadah, Israel resorted to a media and information blackout. It is stated in the report of the State Department that "to halt the uprising, the Israeli authorities imposed increasing restraints on freedom of expression and press in 1988, citing security reasons".

(con'd)



posted on May, 24 2006 @ 03:21 AM
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Thus, Israel, the occupying power, has been violating the relevant conventions and rules of international law and the generally accepted norms and principles of international behaviour. In particular, its policies and practices in the occupied territory remain in clear violation of a number of carefully elaborated and universally accepted instruments of international law. The general policy of the Government of Israel continues to be based on the concept that the territory occupied by Israel since 1967 should be considered as part of the State of Israel. This has allowed Israeli authorities to advance the so-called "homeland doctrine" according to which, international law notwithstanding, the occupied Palestinian territory constitutes part of the "Jewish homeland", ceasing therefore to be "occupied territory". The policies of deportation, torture of detainees, mass arrests, demolition of houses, arbitrary beatings and killing of innocent people - among them children, women and the elderly - as well as the humiliation of Palestinians in their daily life have been systematically pursued by the Israeli authorities in the occupied territory.

International, national and private relief organizations continue to render economic and social assistance to the Palestinian people. Various organizations of the United Nations system have been providing assistance to the Palestinian people in the occupied territory. The United Nations Security Council, the General Assembly, the Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People, other organs and agencies of the United Nations system as well as major intergovernmental organizations throughout the world have placed special emphasis in their activities on the plight of the Palestinian people in the occupied Palestinian territory.



That was my summary



posted on May, 24 2006 @ 01:41 PM
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Usually what Israel does his to deny all those events, claim that it was their land in the 1st place and also a big load of crap (excuse my french).

Historically jews were always kicked out of almost any country/region they were settled in; the most outrageous acts against them is known by all of us: the nazism. Many were killed, tortured, humiliated just for the simple fact they were Jews; does that give them the right to kick people away out of their country ? No. The document presented has obviously a non-jewish view of the conflict. This is a big board, lets see if we have any opinions that contradict this document



posted on May, 24 2006 @ 01:43 PM
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very informative Aris, thank you.

I would like to have a few of my understandings confirmed if you dont mind.

first, in 1982 when Israel invaded Lebanon, they signed a cease-fire and guaranteed the saftey of the palestinian refugees, then in a few months assassinanted the president of lebanon, invaded the country despite the cease-fire, and murdered the women and children in the refugee camps!? and they call the palestinians terrorists!

also, why did Israel invade Lebanon in the first place? what did Lebanon have to do with anything? is it because the Jews wanted more land or because Lebanon was harboring members of the PLO? if the latter, why did they assassinate the president of Lebanon?

and just be clear, the PLO was like the zionists of the palestinians right, they wanted to take back palestinian land?

and finally, as far as recent news goes, you see palestinian terrorists fighting the Israelis, is this the intifadah still going on with the Arab population in the Israeli controlled gaza strip and west bank? And on a map the gaza strip and west bank are seen as different states, but aren't these controlled by Israel?



posted on May, 24 2006 @ 03:44 PM
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Not implying that you have a palestinian bias but if there is some scattered major acts of terrorism commited by the palestinians, such as the killing of innocent Jews or something, I would like to hear it. Just want to get the whole story from both sides.

sorry I didn't post this with the rest before but I was late for a semester test and almost got the door shut on me.



posted on May, 24 2006 @ 04:57 PM
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Hi all

I will leave here a very graphic link, showing palestine maps changes, occurring since 1878, when the first jewish colony appeared.

When you cut and cut again, endless times the palestine territory, only one thing could come from all that cutting. Chaos.
Palestine maps link:

www.passia.org...

Foot note:
Africa as you might now is a very chaotic continent, and the main reason (besides IMF - International Monetary Fund) for all that chaos, is the fact that a long time ago, western european countries who colonized Africa decided to create countries, borders, displaced tribes(to create wars between tribes), created barriers for tribes to travel freely, separated families. They, the europeans, tought by this way, tribes would fight each other instead of fighting the colonizers, and that worked until today, and still is working.....

Well this seems to be, also the future, for Palestine, but in a smaller scale.


Peace
Crustas



posted on May, 24 2006 @ 05:58 PM
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There is a growing Humanitarian Crisis in Gaza. Israel makes a big show for the rest of the world by 'withdrawing' from Gaza, and 'give it back' to them, then withhold their tax revenues, cut off their food, their fuel, and medical supplies, in other words starve them right back out of it. Infitada is alive and well in Gaza. Sickening. The Jewish owned western media would have you believe this is because of the new Hamas Government, but it's been going on for decades.
They're starving, while Omert simply denies it's happening...
Gaza on brink of humanitarian crisis
Gaza facing humanitarian crisis
Humanitarian Crisis Looms in Gaza, warns UN
UN: Israel, Palestinians nearing humanitarian crisis
Humanitarian crisis on Gaza doorstep: UN
Growing humanitarian crisis in Gaza
Palestinians’ Ongoing Humanitarian Crisis Deepening in Gaza
Current violence pushing Gaza into a humanitarian crisis
GAZA STARVING
Rubbish collection has been cut in Gaza City, and sanitation and sewerage
Immediate action needed to avert humanitarian crisis in Gaza
Fuel Shortage Exacerbates Palestinian Humanitarian Crisis Israel Chocking Palestinian Traffic, Bakeries, Hospitals and Family Kitchens
World Bank Warns of Humanitarian Crisis in West Bank and Gaza.
The Ongoing Humanitarian Crisis and Israeli Interference
Israel, pressured by international alarm over a brewing Palestinian humanitarian crisis, has agreed to release tens of millions of dollars in funds it has withheld from the Palestinians
Gaza Strip is dangerously short of basic foodstuffs Fuel cutoff swells humanitarian crisis
Humanitarian Organizations Warn of Deteriorating Economic Situation in Gaza
Supply shortages spark health crisis in Gaza
Gaza Facing Humanitarian Crisis
The humanitarian crisis in the Occupied Palestinian Territories
Gaza's food crisis challenges Hamas cabinet
U.S. tries to solve Gaza border crossing crisis



posted on May, 24 2006 @ 09:38 PM
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Originally posted by twitchy
There is a growing Humanitarian Crisis in Gaza. Israel makes a big show for the rest of the world by 'withdrawing' from Gaza, and 'give it back' to them, then withhold their tax revenues, cut off their food, their fuel, and medical supplies, in other words starve them right back out of it. Infitada is alive and well in Gaza. Sickening. The Jewish owned western media would have you believe this is because of the new Hamas Government, but it's been going on for decades.


Hamas has the power to end the humanitarian crisis.
All they have to do is renounce violence and recognize Israel's right to exist and then the US and EU will resume aid to the Palestinians.



posted on May, 25 2006 @ 05:39 AM
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Like politics you are handling all the responsability to one side, and you know it is not that way it works. Neither by sayin Palestine should make things easier or sayin the same about Israel. International comunity ? The only reason Palestine wasnt wiped out of the map, is because of the powerful oil countries that surround this region that happen to be muslins too. So its not, Palestine should back off or Israel should back off; its much more complex. It seems to me, that you are "by right" saying that those lands belong to Israel because they were there in the 1st place. If i am wrong please correct me, or tell me why should be Palestine backing off instead of Israel.



posted on May, 25 2006 @ 08:30 AM
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Originally posted by daedalas
also, why did Israel invade Lebanon in the first place? what did Lebanon have to do with anything? is it because the Jews wanted more land or because Lebanon was harboring members of the PLO? if the latter, why did they assassinate the president of Lebanon?

and just be clear, the PLO was like the zionists of the palestinians right, they wanted to take back palestinian land?


I found Limited War In Lebanon, an essay by Naom Chomsky, to be good info on this as it goes into thorough detail.



and finally, as far as recent news goes, you see palestinian terrorists fighting the Israelis, is this the intifadah still going on with the Arab population in the Israeli controlled gaza strip and west bank? And on a map the gaza strip and west bank are seen as different states, but aren't these controlled by Israel?

It doesn't seem to have the intensity of the first and second intifadas. Furthermore, Hamas has adhered to its declared cease fire for about a year and a half now.

Yes, for all intents and purposes, the Occupied Territories are controlled by Israel, although they point to functioning Palestinian self governance within. Also, Israel doesn't consider them "occupied territories".



Not implying that you have a palestinian bias but if there is some scattered major acts of terrorism commited by the palestinians, such as the killing of innocent Jews or something, I would like to hear it. Just want to get the whole story from both sides.

I have a humanitarian bias. Believe you me, if there is a Palestinian act of terrorism, you'll surely hear about it on the news. From what I recall, the ratio of Palestinian innocents killed vs Israeli, during the second intifada, is about 4 to 1 or 5 to 1. Of course, Israeli civilians aren't subjected to the humanitarian crisis and daily repression that all Palestinians are.



posted on May, 25 2006 @ 08:35 AM
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Originally posted by AceOfBase
Hamas has the power to end the humanitarian crisis.
All they have to do is renounce violence and recognize Israel's right to exist and then the US and EU will resume aid to the Palestinians.


I recently read Hamas and Israel's "Right To Exist" by Virginia Tilley and found it to have good analysis which is pertinent to what you just mentioned.

[edit on 25/5/2006 by Aris]



posted on May, 25 2006 @ 05:45 PM
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Originally posted by AceOfBase

Originally posted by twitchy
There is a growing Humanitarian Crisis in Gaza. Israel makes a big show for the rest of the world by 'withdrawing' from Gaza, and 'give it back' to them, then withhold their tax revenues, cut off their food, their fuel, and medical supplies, in other words starve them right back out of it. Infitada is alive and well in Gaza. Sickening. The Jewish owned western media would have you believe this is because of the new Hamas Government, but it's been going on for decades.


Hamas has the power to end the humanitarian crisis.
All they have to do is renounce violence and recognize Israel's right to exist and then the US and EU will resume aid to the Palestinians.


Hamas has honored their Ceasefire for over 18 months now, but I guess they don't talk about that on the TV where you live.

And they agreed to recognize Israel if they withdraw behind the 1967 Pre-War borders.

All they ask is that Israel give back what they took when they invaded in a Sneak Attack.



posted on May, 26 2006 @ 01:36 AM
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I have read almost everything on this subject that you have given me Aris, good work BTW. So my only remaining question is this, how could this happen to the palestinians and nobody do anything about this?

As I understand it, the palestinians were given the Gaza Strip, West Bank, and part of Jerusalem. They were forced by the british to give more than half of their country to the jews and they did. Any attempt to regulate the immigration of the jews resulted in acts of terrorism by Jewish extremist groups.

As soon as the British turned the situation over to the UN, the israelis invaded and occupied the rest of jerusalem, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. The Jewish extremist groups attacked peaceful palestinian villages and murdered innocent women and children. There was mass palestinian immigration to surrounding countries and Israel had essentially taken the whole country of Israel.

If anyone spoke of retaking these lands (PLO) Israel invaded the whole country and dropped thousands of bombs in the general direction. that about hit the nail on the head?

Also Aris, if you could go a little more in depth with that answer about the gaza strip and west bank being occupied by Israel, I would like to know why they are shown on the map as being seperate states and if the U.S. recognizes them as palestinian states or as jewish states.



And they agreed to recognize Israel if they withdraw behind the 1967 Pre-War borders.

All they ask is that Israel give back what they took when they invaded in a Sneak Attack.


Really? how has Israel responded to this? Their basically saying give us back our land and we'll forgive you for taking them, not much for Israel to lose aside from illegal land.



posted on May, 26 2006 @ 06:10 AM
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Originally posted by daedalas
I have read almost everything on this subject that you have given me Aris, good work BTW. So my only remaining question is this, how could this happen to the palestinians and nobody do anything about this?

The way I see it, Israel has the US in its corner, vetoing UN resolutions any time they come up. So they act with impunity because they know they can get away with it. Furthermore, the US gives about 3 billion USD plus intelligence to Israel every year and allows it to select the best weapons from its own armament. France also helped Israel in the 50s by helping to develop its nuclear weapons program. Nothing like having an arsenal of 2-300 undeclared, uninspected nuclear warheads eh. Also, other Arab states tend to have despots for rulers and said rulers have sold their people and countries to the almighty petrodollar; see Saudi Arabia for eg. What I find to be most unfortunate is that most Arab states care more about selling oil to the west than ensuring the rights of their own people and fellow Arabs. I know that's a simplistic generalization and that the geopolitics in the ME during the 20th century weren't as simple as that, but overall it would seem that the ME nations are fractured in the sense of not having a united, principled front against the western alliances, partly because they can't (not as powerful) and partly because they don't really want to (selfish interests of the rulers).



As I understand it, the palestinians were given the Gaza Strip, West Bank, and part of Jerusalem. They were forced by the british to give more than half of their country to the jews and they did. Any attempt to regulate the immigration of the jews resulted in acts of terrorism by Jewish extremist groups.

Simply put, yes. And they weren't really "given" those lands, they were pushed into them as the sole land allowed for them to stay in.



As soon as the British turned the situation over to the UN, the israelis invaded and occupied the rest of jerusalem, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. The Jewish extremist groups attacked peaceful palestinian villages and murdered innocent women and children. There was mass palestinian immigration to surrounding countries and Israel had essentially taken the whole country of Israel.

Well I wouldn't say that the Jews went on to destroy & slaughter like the Nazis did, but they certainly did enough so as to expel as many Palestinians as possible.



If anyone spoke of retaking these lands (PLO) Israel invaded the whole country and dropped thousands of bombs in the general direction. that about hit the nail on the head?

So it would seem. Again, not in the blitzkrieg sense, but Israel has indeed been aggressive in claiming as much land as possible. Don't forget that Israel also defends its actions as a "historical right" and that it also tries to paint a picture of being a small nation surrounded & threatened by evil, primitive and irrational Arabs.



Also Aris, if you could go a little more in depth with that answer about the gaza strip and west bank being occupied by Israel, I would like to know why they are shown on the map as being seperate states and if the U.S. recognizes them as palestinian states or as jewish states.

No one recognizes Israel as a "Jewish state". It has been recognized as an Israeli state at the 1967 borders, if I'm not mistaken. Land it has grabbed beyond that is not recognized as part of Israel. Palestine has been recognized as a state by a great majority of members of the UN. Western states, however, don't recognize it and refer to it as Palestinian Occupied Territories because they claim that the Palestinian people have no sovereignty in the Occupied Territories as yet.

It's a whole can of worms


[edit on 26/5/2006 by Aris]



posted on May, 26 2006 @ 08:40 AM
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Originally posted by Malichai
Hamas has honored their Ceasefire for over 18 months now, but I guess they don't talk about that on the TV where you live.

And they agreed to recognize Israel if they withdraw behind the 1967 Pre-War borders.

All they ask is that Israel give back what they took when they invaded in a Sneak Attack.


The agreement to recognize Israel within the 1967 borders has not been agreed to yet.



Hamas leder interview January 2006

Palestine means Palestine in its entirety - from the (Mediterranean) Sea to the (Jordan) River, from Ras Al-Naqura to Rafah. We cannot give up a single inch of it. Therefore, we will not recognize the Israeli enemy's [right] to a single inch. That is one thing.

The second thing is that if the Right of Return is an individual right, neither Mahmoud Al-Zahhar nor 'Abbas Zaki can relinquish it, because all these concessions will constitute a national catastrophe.

The third point is that we can found a state on any piece of the land, and this will not mean we give up on any other part of the land.



posted on May, 26 2006 @ 09:05 AM
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Originally posted by daedalas
As I understand it, the palestinians were given the Gaza Strip, West Bank, and part of Jerusalem. They were forced by the british to give more than half of their country to the jews and they did. Any attempt to regulate the immigration of the jews resulted in acts of terrorism by Jewish extremist groups.

As soon as the British turned the situation over to the UN, the israelis invaded and occupied the rest of jerusalem, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. The Jewish extremist groups attacked peaceful palestinian villages and murdered innocent women and children. There was mass palestinian immigration to surrounding countries and Israel had essentially taken the whole country of Israel.



The Palestinians were not given Jerusalem and neither were the Jews.
Jerusalem was meant to be an Internationaly controlled zone but the Arabs invaded and took control of most of Jerusalem in 1948 until it was seized back from the Arabs in the 1967 war.



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