Turkish Jet Violated Greek Airspace And Crashed With Greek Jet

Originally posted by Aris
Jamuhn, a correction: most of the islands of the Aegean are occupied.

of the Aegean? I'm talking about in general, including the islands in the Mediterranean and extending along the southern coastline of Turkey.

This is a list of some of the 1400 islands of Greece, of which 227 are inhabited. Only 78 islands have more than 100 inhabitants.

en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 24-5-2006 by Jamuhn]

Greece got most of those islands because Italy occupied the then ottoman territory after WW1. After WW2 greece got the islands from italy.

Jamuhn, I think you need to think about what complies as an island. Obviously if you count every rocky outcrop or goats grazing patch as an island then you will get figures like those above but realistically if you look at only those of a size normally associated with islands you will see that the majority of islands in the Aegian are inhabited.

Is anyone else as surprised as I am with the decorum of both sides in resolving this issue? I was shocked that this didn't escalate immediately into a shouting match/shooting war.

Honestly, it's really nice to see two groups making an effort to resolve conflict nonviolently.

It's not a moral issue, for me at least, just common sense conservation. Never use more energy than absolutely necessary to resolve a situation, for efficiency's sake.

Originally posted by gfad
Jamuhn, I think you need to think about what complies as an island.

And how do you know that these islands are merely small rocks? Do you have a source then?

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Is anyone else as surprised as I am with the decorum of both sides in resolving this issue? I was shocked that this didn't escalate immediately into a shouting match/shooting war.

The Greeks and Turks seem to have become more civil in the last few years. I think the people themselves are close too. Politically, it became more civil after the last major earthquake in Turkey maybe?

If the Greeks own all these islands off the coast of Turkey, and Greek airspace extends from these islands, then basically, this is cutting off Turkey from being able to travel over most of the water surrounding it. Right?

[edit on 24-5-2006 by Jamuhn]

Something that I wonder about is the EU. If Turkey wants to join the EU, will the issues with Greece need to be resolved first? Or will Turkey entering the EU resolve those issues anyway? What will be the status of Turkish/Greek airspace borders if Turkey is indeed brought into the EU? If the resolution to this problem dissolving of individual country airspace in the EU, to resolve such conflicts? Could this be further dissolution of individual borders?

Originally posted by Jamuhn
If the Greeks own all these islands off the coast of Turkey, and Greek airspace extends from these islands, then basically, this is cutting off Turkey from being able to travel over most of the water surrounding it. Right?

The maps posted earlier cover too small of an area.
You need to look at a bigger map.

Map of Turkey

There's lots of airspace for the Turks to have military maneuvers.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

What will be the status of Turkish/Greek airspace borders if Turkey is indeed brought into the EU?

I think the airspace would be the same. It won't change a thing. The countries in EU have their own airspaces. For instance: German military planes cannot fly over Copenhagen (Denmark) without getting a special permission first, even though both countries are in the EU.

Originally posted by tomcat ha
Greece got most of those islands because Italy occupied the then ottoman territory after WW1. After WW2 greece got the islands from italy.

Let's get our history straight, the entire picture, generally speaking:

- The eastern Aegean islands were part of the Hellenic Civilization in ancient times up until and including the age of Alexander The Great.
- The Romans invaded and occupied them in the period of about 165-80 BC.
- Pompei granted most islands autonomy until about 70 AD, the time of the Emperor Vespasian.
- Hadrian gave the Greeks their privileges again and the islands prospered into the first centuries of the Christian era, as witnessed by the 57 early Christian basilicas whose ruins have been unearthed to date in Lesbos alone.
- They were part of the Byzantine Empire until about 780 AD when they were raided by the Slavs. In 821, 881 and 1055 they were raided by the Saracens, by the Venetians in 1128 and in the 13th century by the Catalan pirates (checked this).
- In 1204 Franks occupied Lesbos for eg and presented it to Baudouin I. From him it passed to the Byzantine Emperor Ioannis III Doukas-Vatatzis in 1224 and in 1261 it became a Byzantine Province again.
- The Turks captured most islands around 1460 and loosely administrated them for about 4 centuries.
- The Greek revolution of 1821 had certain islands falling back to them, only to be reclaimed by the Turks until the Ottoman Empire fell in 1912.
- At the end of WWI, Greece had claimed Eastern Thrace and Smyrna along with much of the western coast of Turkey. However, the Dodecanese group of islands were recognized as Italian possessions and Cyprus a British possession.
- In 1922, if I'm not mistaken, Greece lost Asia Minor.
- At the end of WWII, Greece reclaimed the Dodecanese islands and thus took its contemporary form.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Is anyone else as surprised as I am with the decorum of both sides in resolving this issue? I was shocked that this didn't escalate immediately into a shouting match/shooting war.

Honestly, it's really nice to see two groups making an effort to resolve conflict nonviolently.

It's not a moral issue, for me at least, just common sense conservation. Never use more energy than absolutely necessary to resolve a situation, for efficiency's sake.

I've been following this incident closely for the past couple of days, both on private media and of course on state TV so as to absorb official positions and statements.

Here's what they've been saying these past two days, aside from all the facts that you all have impeccably sourced:

- According to our Air Force, 3 Turkish fighters, an F4 photographical Phantom and two F-16s, violated Athens FIR with an undeclared flight.
- Two Greek F-16s, according to ICAO rules intercepted the Turkish fighters at 27,000ft.
- During recognition manuevers (sorry for the layman's terms) that tend to be dangerous, a Turkish F-16 veered left and down, hitting a Greek F-16 from above.
- When the F-16s crashed at 12:45pm, three helicopters (2 Sea Kings and a Super Puma? I'm not 100% sure I remember) immediately took off towards the area and arrived, along with a C-130 and naval support (Coast Guard & military frigates, sorry, don't recall the specifics)
- A nearby merchant ship of Japanese interests under a Panamanian flag picked up the Turkish pilot.
-The arriving rescue personnel in the helicopter and the captain of the Coast Guard vessel boarded the merchant ship.
- The Turkish pilot declined their assistance, claiming perfect health and reportedly drew his pistol in defiance (just reporting what I've heard over the news and read in newspapers).
- Turkish officials requested that a Turkish helicopter pick up their pilot, a request that Greece permitted.
- Meanwhile, three more Turkish F-16s took off from Turkey (don't recall from where), flying towards the crash area.
- The high commander of the Greek Armed Forces phoned his counterpart, General Ozkiok (sp) and told him, "You are escalating a dangerous situation with your actions". The Turkish counterpart replied, "We don't want to escalate" and the three Turkish F-16s turned around and went back to base (don't remember the names but I remember the specific transcript of their words on the evening news last night).
- The Greek pilot's helmet and survival kit, along with certain small parts of his aircraft have been found. Operations are still under way to find him.
- Turkish officials claim that the Turkish fighters were on a training mission in international waters.

And the aftermath:

- The two countries' Ministers of Exterior talked on the phone and jointly stated that such an incident "shouldn't influence both nations' goals of improvement of their relations" (I'm translating this from transcripts of Greek mainstream media sites right now). Furthermore, they agreed that "the incident should be transparently investigated and not allowed to influence bilateral relations".

- Turkish media, as was piped into our own news, for eg CNN Turk, downplayed the incident and the Turkish Prime Minister did not even mention the incident whatsoever in his address to Parliament. Apparently there is a huge power struggle going on between secularists and Islamists and this incident doesn't help.

- Yesterday, Greek Prime Minister Karamanlis, while at a meeting with his French counterpart, stated, "Turkey must reconsider its stance, after this incident, and adhere to its commitments to the EU. Her European prospects depend on her implementing the European commitments she has undertaken and maintaining the stance of a good neighbour. Yesterday (Tuesday's) incident ought to make the neighbouring country seriously reflect upon the stance she maintains and to abandon, once and for all, behaviour and actions that do not enhance the relations of a good neighbour which, of course, are taken into account and assessed for her European path. Greece defends her national interests and titles. At all levels, the entire incident displayed the responsibility and gravity with which our authorities handle such sensitive matters of foreign and defence policy. It is imperative in such matters that our own public maintains its cool and responsibilities."

- The President of Greece, Papoulias, while with the Queen of Denmark, stated, "Yesterday's (Tuesday's) humanely tragic and politically grave incident in the Aegean clearly demonstrates the need for Turkey to respect both the letter and the essence of International Law and international conventions and for her to realize that unacceptable behaviour like yesterday's undeclared flights put the stability of a sensitive region in danger. The lastest expansion of the EU, an ethical and historical necessity, and the prospects of further expansion create insecurity for European citizens in a Europe that gains all the more size without the corresponding depth. We believe that the EU must keep its promises made to prospective nations of incorporation without compromising its principles and without concessions of such. Of couse, candidate nations must fulfill the criteria that the EU has set for them. Especially for Turkey, Greece supports its incorporation into the EU, without this meaning that we see this as a historical necessity. We deem the incorporation of Turkey into the EU coming about as a result of a punctual and desired path of adjustment by her towards European principles and values. Greece works toward good neighbourly relations, for the obvious good of both our peoples. Good neighbourly relations, however, are not a rhetorical schema or statements of intent; they are actions."


Finally, according to the Greek daily "Ta Nea", the Greek Air Force had learned, earlier in the day, that Turkish fighters were going to fly a spy mission to photograph the positions of Russian S-300 anti-aircraft rocket launchers in Eastern Crete. The Turkish RF-4 Phantom was escorted by the two F-16s for air support but because the Greek Air Force knew about this in advance, that is why they were able to intercept the Turkish fighters near Karpathos, 21 nm away from Eastern Crete. The Turkish Air Force, for its part, admits to an F-4 being in the formation but denies that it was a photographical Phantom, an RF-4 spy plane. Morever, it claims that the fighters were on a training mission and denies that they were flying within Athens FIR, entirely ommitting that they were at 27,000ft, an altitude for civilian aircraft. When Turkey submitted all this to NATO, Greece strenuously objected and submitted all documented evidence to ΝΑΤΟ's flight display system (again, sorry for translating into layman's terms).