There is apparently some confusion about what kind of planes was involved. Some say a Greek F-16 and a Turkish RF-4. Others say they were both F-16s. Now BBC have changed their article to say they were both F-14s. Whatever planes it was, they all say the planes crashed during a dogfight. The Turkish pilot has been rescued, the Greek pilot is still missing. Some reports say passengers on a nearby passenger jet saw the midair explosion when it happened. Greece say their airspace is 16 km from the island but Turkey don't recognize it and claim the Greek airspace is only 10 km.

As, to my knowledge, neither Greek or Turkey operate F-14's, I'd say the BBC's web page writers really don't know what they are talking about.

Just a thought.

Originally posted by neformore

I'd say the BBC's web page writers really don't know what they are talking about.

Now they just changed it to say that they were both F-16s. Norwegian media say two F-16s as well. They also say the Turkish pilot's name is Ibrahim Ozdemir and that he was picked up by a ship.

Originally posted by AceOfBase
Greece didn't take those Islands.
Those have been Greek Islands for centuries.
Most of Turkey was once Greek.

Yea, and ALL of North and South America was once Indian territory, what's your point?

The Greeks have managed to hold onto some of the Greek Islands but that's not the same as taking them.

Byzantium? Try the Ottoman Empire for the latest history. I realize there are a lot of Greeks on these islands, but not all of them are Greeks. As well, the Greeks control almost all of the islands. The Turks only have a handful of the ones surrounding their country.

Originally posted by Jamuhn
Yea, and ALL of North and South America was once Indian territory, what's your point?

[...]
I realize there are a lot of Greeks on these islands, but not all of them are Greeks. As well, the Greeks control almost all of the islands. The Turks only have a handful of the ones surrounding their country.

My point is that the Islands were owned by Greeks in the past and are still owned by the Greeks in the present. Therefore the Turks need to keep their aircraft away.

I have no sympathy for the Turks for losing their empire.
They were an even more of a colonial empire than the British or French.

As I said before, legally, Turkish aircraft violated Greek airspace. But, it is still strange how Greece managed to gobble up all the islands around Turkey. As I understand it, the Ottomans and subsequent burgeoning Turkish Republic didn't have a good navy. As well, most of these islands are not even inhabited, and the ones that are, usually have a small number of people on them. Cyprus is one exception though.

Originally posted by AceOfBaseI have no sympathy for the Turks for losing their empire.
They were an even more of a colonial empire than the British or French.

Your lack of sympathy is obvious from your Christian Crusader avatar. As well, European powers were by far a larger colonial empire than the Ottomans ever were. In fact, just the British by themselves had colonies from one corner of the world to the other.

[edit on 24-5-2006 by Jamuhn]

Jamuhn: with all due respect you are making a big storm in a glass of water. You are somehow insinuating that Greece is using or used their power to have these islands in their possesion (wich is not so ultrageous taking in consideration almost every nation in the time of emperors you are talking about were in war for land rights). Anyway, in these days you know if you work for a non-Turkey TV station and you want to make a documentary about anything in Turkey your camera films will be revised by authorities and you will have someone to escort you till you get out of the country. This yes, sounds a bit odd, dont you think ? Specially for a country that wants to be part of European Union.

Originally posted by Jamuhn
As I said before, legally, Turkish aircraft violated Greek airspace. But, it is still strange how Greece managed to gobble up all the islands around Turkey.

You still don't get it? Greece never gobbled up any islands. The WERE greek, they always HAVE been greek and they still ARE greek. You are insinuating some sort of take-over

Turkey are constantly violating Greek airspace, the greeks say they have to scramble jets every day to intercept them. If the turks respected agreed protocol this wouldn't happen. With their constant provocation this was bound to happen. I just hope it doesn't get blown out of proportion like when Greece and Turkey nearly went to war again over a rocky outcrop in the 90's.

Excellent and most informative replies by all! It is very refreshing for me, as a Greek, to read others from other nations and to find them interested, informed and impartial abour our affairs

Jamuhn, a correction: most of the islands of the Aegean are occupied. Now if you want to throw in some rocks that are a couple of square miles in area jutting out of the ocean so as to make your "most of the islands are not even inhabited" claim, it is laughable.

Let's take the islands near the central Aegean Turkish coast:
- Lesbos (Mytilini) pop. 100,000
- Hios pop. 50,000
- Icaria pop. 7,000
- Samos pop. 40,000

Here is where they are:



So much for islands near Turkey not being inhabited.

Good points, gfad.

When I served in the army, part of my deployment was to Samos. Turkish fighters violated Greek airspace, all the way to the Cyclades which is pretty freakin far in, on a daily basis.

Just about every single day, multiple Turkish fighters come way into the Aegean and are intercepted by Greek fighters. They then proceed to dogfight, without arming their ammunition of course. After some dogfighting, the Turkish planes leave. It happens every day.

A couple of years ago, Turkish fighters played around with Greece's equivalent of Air Force 2 which was flying some minister to Rhodes, if I remember correctly.

Turkish provocation occurs on a daily basis. You don't see Greek jets flying into Turkey every day but only the other way around. The only regret that Greek pilots have from all this is that the Turks never knew how to dogfight over mountainous islands and the surrounding seas but because of so many years of infiltration, they've gotten good as well.

Who's to blame for all this? Well aside from Turkish claims on the Aegean, which as was correctly pointed out, they never had, you have the US arming both camps to the teeth. Greece's ratio of its military budget vs GDP is one of the highest in the world. Let's recall the incident at Imia in '96, when Turkish commandos offloaded a couple of journalists on that uninhabited rock and raised the Turkish flag.

I imagine that even though the US profits handsomely from arms sales to both countries, the US gov't is the only thing that's keeping Turkey at bay. We are both members of NATO, after all.

It raises the interesting question what would the EU do if Greece and Turkey (Who are not the best of friends) had a war.

Greece=in the EU

Turkey= Not in The EU, but would like to be.

Would the EU intervene? And how?

Threats of EU expulsion for Greece, Threats of EU freezing of talks with Turkey?

Backing one side over the other?

Interesting question indeed but because we're both members of NATO, this scenario has a next to zero chance of occuring, under the current state of NATO affairs.

However, in theory at least, an attack on a EU member by a non EU member, regardless of whether it's aspiring to join the EU or not, would be seen as an attack on the EU itself.

How would the EU respond? Since it doesn't have an effective army of its own, I imagine, from what I've read within EU published policies such as the European Security Strategy, it would work through the UN and NATO.

I wonder if the US would get involved?

The US want to keep Turkey 'on side' as part of 'The war on terror'....

But then again....the US are a bit frustrated with Turkey over Turkey's reluctance to let the US use Turkish airspace for the War on Iraq, and a possible war with Iran...makes me wonder whether the US would be happy to see Turkey take a slap, to see Turkey become more compliant and wishing to be seen as 'good' again.