Typhoon turning Japanese?

"I think I'm turning Japanese I think I'm turning Japanese, I really think so" The Vapours once sang, well maybe the Eurofighter Typhoon is about to do so?

BAE Systems, representing Eurofighter, has proposed the the Typhoon to the JASDF for its requirement for a replacement for its elderly F-4 Phantoms.

The idea of a straight license build of the Typhoon is believed to be unacceptable to Japan so the offer is in the form of an indegenously developed variant, similar to the way the Mitsubishi F-2 was develooped from the F-16. The news is in this weeks Flight magazine but has not yet appeared on the website. Here's the web address for whrn it does;
www.flightglobal.com...

So this picture, which was previously posted by me in jest, may actually represent the future!

nice. The Typhoon is the best choice for them imho.

I am wondering if BAE is simply trying to compete with Lockheed Martin's February 2006 offer:

A Lockheed Martin official has confirmed that a proposal to sell Japan F-22s in some form of downgraded "international variant" is working its way through the Air Force with the support of the Japanese government, and is now "at the three- or four-star level" and among civilian decision-makers. Yet the F-22's extensive and not fully-revealed capabilities have made many in the USA very nervous about exporting it, and thereby risking a security breach around its electronic architecture, stealth aspects, or next-generation data links.

F-22 Raptors to Japan?

If price is a significant issue for Japan, like I think it may be, the Japanese may well opt for an indegenously developed variant Eurofighter/EF-2000/Typhoon.







seekerof

Does the Rising Sun of Japan on a Fighter Jet give you the creeps or is it just me?

I would expect a Japanese varient to be far less ambitious than the F-2 is in relation to the F-16. Maybe just a Typhoon with some local electronics, local weapons (plus Meteor) and 3dTVC (as already ground tested in Spain), flank tanks and all of them two seaters. ?

PS. The Vapours??!!? now there's a blast from the past. Go Japan!










[edit on 22-5-2006 by planeman]

planeman, hope you don't get a warning for that from an uneducated scrote with a power fetish

Like seekerof, I too thought of the F-22 when I read this. Firstly, if Japan is offered, and can afford, the straight F-22A then quite frankly it is no contest, imo.

However when you start to water down the capabilities of the F-22 and factor in indegenous local manufacture and technological content it becomes a contest more in favour of the Typhoon, not least because the F-22 is a very big and heavy airframe and, if you are losing capability through buying a watered down version, what is the point of it?

I think there is a decent chance of the Typhoon providing 80-90% of a 'Mitsubishi F-3' but there is a long way to go and a lot of unknowns to be factored in yet to make a call.

Would be a good medium fighter but say if they cannot get it? Maybe they could convert thier F-4 Phantoms into an ATF called the F-4Z Phinal Phantom like we did on one thread before.



Howabout the F/A-18 Hornet Series?

prehaps they could sweeten the deal. Janes is reporting today that the AESA radar system for the eurofighter has completed it's initial flight tests

Well, I would think the Typhoon would be a firm favourite versus the F-22 for this. Why?


1. US unwilling to release operational information to RAF/UK for the F-35 (the level 1 partner in the program), so what chance Japan for the F-22?

2. Japan seems unwilling to accept a straight license to build the EF, therefore it would be assumed, would be most unwilling to accept a no-license build, without the codes to perform bespoke upgrades independant of the supplier (LocMart/USAF).

3. The EF is most likely cheaper, or if at a similar price, would outperform the dumbed down F-22 [Before the F-22 fans come down on me like vultures, the F-22 will have to be re-designed for export to dumb it down, pushing the corresponding price up, the EF has no such worries].

4. Do they need an all singing all dancing VLO fighter (would they even get a VLO F-22 anyway)? IMO, no, it would be a waste of money.

Not a bad fighter, but I was starting to think Japan would go for the J-10. It's a much more local fighter compared to the Typhoon.

Originally posted by Seekerof
I am wondering if BAE is simply trying to compete with Lockheed Martin's February 2006 offer:

If price is a significant issue for Japan, like I think it may be, the Japanese may well opt for an indegenously developed variant Eurofighter/EF-2000/Typhoon.







seekerof

Can you really compare the F-22 with the EF...??

Originally posted by Darkpr0
Not a bad fighter, but I was starting to think Japan would go for the J-10. It's a much more local fighter compared to the Typhoon.

due to the local geopolitics I think the J-10 is a non-starter and at any rate is in the F-2 class.

I agree... it's about politics 2... not only about "plane performance"...

Originally posted by Darkpr0
Not a bad fighter, but I was starting to think Japan would go for the J-10. It's a much more local fighter compared to the Typhoon.

There is no chance that Japan would ever buy a Chinese fighter. there is way too much bad blood between the two countries and China is one reason Japan is improving thier military in the first place

Waynos,

>>
"I think I'm turning Japanese I think I'm turning Japanese, I really think so" The Vapours once sang, well maybe the Eurofighter Typhoon is about to do so?
>>

Either you are unaware of what this phrase meant in the song or you are deliberately leaving open the 'pointless waste of (political) juice as a release of frustration elsewhere' connotation.

>>
BAE Systems, representing Eurofighter, has proposed the the Typhoon to the JASDF for its requirement for a replacement for its elderly F-4 Phantoms.
>>

Baaaah. The Flubber will have to be fully 'multiroled' as it stands (i.e. no 2010 as a Tranche 3 non sequituring) before the F-4EJ replacement makes sense, now that the F-1 is gone, the Kai is doing roughly a 70:30 mission mix between strike and air defense and frankly the F-2 is as good if not better at both.

If you want sea control, you need a radar that can handle ISAR ID and deep-trough searching and a set of heavy weight pylons that can bring a wide-span, heavy weight, AShM into range without giving up all other wingfuel.

If you want conventional interdiction, you need a QUALIFIED (airframe cleared and production line guaranteed) IAM + Targeting Pod to make it happen.

AAW...Ainh. Japan has a lot of coast and both some quite-tight reaction areas and some very long radius ADIZ type patrol zones out over the islands. They will never be able to cover this region with the likely number of F-22 which we would be willing to sell them (assuming they can afford it.), since I doubt seriously if a 1:1 tradeout with the _F-15J_ is in the cards (this would give them equal if not slightly greater numbers than the USAF buy).

A Flubber might buy them a bit of this but even so, it will not be cheaper than simply reopening the F-2 line would be. T'wer I the local JASDF honcho, I would talk to Euromissile about a missile systems licensing and forget the new airframe.

Of course the biggest thing going against this whole deal is that the U.S. is effectively using Japan as a testbed for NMD in anticipation of full pullback from Korea. And we _will not_ integrate somebody else' platform within our ADGE. Just ask the ROKs and the French.

In the end, the ultimate answer for Japanese AD this is likely going to be a combination of ABL like technologies (probably based on 'digital FO' or diode pumping). Combined with a local mid-range interceptor (200-400km) in the ASTER+ or THAAD category.

You just can't play tacair as a TBM zone defense and expect much, given the limits of inventory, radius and loiter vs. responsiveness. If you want to stick within Japans Constitutional limits on offensive forces, you have to do a shoot-foward engagement and for that, missiles and lasers have the 5 microseconds to 5 minutes (acquisition + midcourse) superiority of responsiveness.

AAW is better won with missiles and networking. While, for strike, the Flubber is just past it, even if the Japanese were allowed to sit at the table.

CONCLUSION:
If this is real, it signals how much the Brits now 'own' a U.S. defense industry hegemony in terms of inroads to 'shared marketing' through recently acquired companies. If it isn't, then however much you spin it or spank it, it all comes down to a draining experience as the JASDF jockeys for position on a good F-22 deal.


KPl.

Either you are unaware of what this phrase meant in the song or you are deliberately leaving open the 'pointless waste of (political) juice as a release of frustration elsewhere' connotation.

Wrong on both counts, sorry if that disappoints. Er, well, no I'm not actually as it was a simple light hearted intro to the post with reference to lyrics that are, in a literal sense, appropriate. Nothing deep or worthy of analysis.

Eurofighter and the RAF are working up the Typhoons multi role capabilities now, not in 2010, furthermore the first RAF Typhoon squadron dedicated to the A2G role is due to form in 2007. Allied to the fact that Japan wont be wanting or expecting deliveries to begin immediately that any contract is signed there is no obstacle to Japan getting Typhoons if it wants them in the role it wants when they want. Don't forget also that this would not be a straight buy but a locally developed variant so satisfy local pride and further enhance local capabilities, this will all take time so again, the ongoing programme to enhance the Typhoons A2G capabilities would not be an obstacle.

Quite apart from all that, which is actually a bit of a red herring, is the fact that the F-2 is already an attack aircraft and the F-4 replacement plan is for a dedicated air superiority fighter, which is what the Typhoon was designed for.

Regarding your point about re-opening F-2 production, well a dedicated air superiority variant of the F-2 is another of the options that is being studied, as is the F-22 and the Rafale. Which of these (if any) is best for Japan is up to them to decide, I am not trying to say they should buy the Typhoon, I am merely reporting the offer from BAE, which is real.

Originally posted by Figher Master FIN
Can you really compare the F-22 with the EF...??

Actually, Figher Master FIN, I can.
Accordingly, can you really compare the EF-2000 with the F-22?






seekerof

Originally posted by Seekerof
Actually, Figher Master FIN, I can.
Accordingly, can you really compare the EF-2000 with the F-22?

seekerof

Perhaps,

Whats the flyaway cost ratio of EF against F-22.

Would the expected kill ratio be greater or less than that?

Originally posted by kilcoo316
Whats the flyaway cost ratio of EF against F-22.

Umm, the "flyaway" costs are obvious as are also the fact that one aircraft is a pure Gen. 5 aircraft whereas the other is not. Would "flyaway" costs reflect such? Does "flyaway" costs also reflect technologies utilized, such as Stealth, internal weapons, etc, etc?

Would the expected kill ratio be greater or less than that?

Wanna explain a bit more?
"Kill ratio" as in what?
"Kill ratio" versus each other or versus a common hostile?
Example: Years past, the BAe and DERA did simulations pitting a number of aircraft against a common hostile -- a Russian Su-35 armed with active radar missiles similar to the AIM-120 AMRAAM. The results were something like this:
Rafale: 1:1 kill ratio
EF-2000: 4.5:1 kill ratio
F-22: 10:1
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.
Source





seekerof

[edit on 25-5-2006 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Seekerof
flyaway" costs are obvious as are also the fact that one aircraft is a pure Gen. 5 aircraft whereas the other is not. Would "flyaway" costs reflect such? Does "flyaway" costs also reflect technologies utilized, such as Stealth, internal weapons, etc, etc?



Wanna explain a bit more?
"Kill ratio" as in what?
"Kill ratio" versus each other or versus a common hostile?
Example: Years past, the BAe and DERA did simulations pitting a number of aircraft against a common hostile -- a Russian Su-35 armed with active radar missiles similar to the AIM-120 AMRAAM. The results were something like this:
Rafale: 1:1 kill ratio
EF-2000: 4.5:1 kill ratio
F-22: 10:1

- Generations are just something us lot on the net apply to aircraft, it doesn't matter a damn whether one is "next generation" or not, if the older aircraft is better, its better.


- The DERA research you quote was early 90s, and was based on projected capabilities of all 3 aircraft, I don't know how accurate it is.

I suppose a better definition than kill ratio would have been mission completion ratio - after all, thats what its all about isn't it? You don't use an F-16 for crop dusting do you, its overkill - do the Japanese need the F-22 or is it overkill (aka overspend)?