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Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
I'd like someone to please show conclusive evidence that the steel hadn't reached a temperature that would allow it's integrity to start to fail.
Originally posted by Griff
How about every other steel skyscraper in the world that has caught fire?
It is not on us non believers to show evidence.
Let me put it this way. Say I'm on trial for murder. They ask me to put on a pair of gloves found at the crime scene. The gloves don't fit. Do I still go to jail for the murder? No, the evidence was contrary to the accusation.
Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
Sure it is. You all claim there were bombs and stuff in the building. Then show us the bombs!
No one had a thermometer measuring the temp of the steel so what kind of evidence are you looking for?
What they can do is make an extremely educated guess that an airplane slamming into the building will cause structural damage. It's ridiculous to think the resulting explosion and fires won't cause even more damage. So if you have any evidence that suggest the steel remained in tack and at the same temp. (remember the steel only needed to be hot enough to lose it's integrity not necessarily melt), please share.
Say someone's house burns. Now houses are full of things that can explode. Say several of these things do explode. Will the police arrest him for having bombs in his house because the things that exploded sounded like bombs?
No, that's absolutely ridiculous.
Wikipedia - 'World Trade Centre'
Although the towers became an undeniable icon of New York City, they were not without their flaws and were troubled in many ways. Initially conceived (as the name suggests) as a complex dedicated to companies and organizations directly involved in "world trade," they at first failed to attract the anticipated clientele; during the WTC's early years various governmental organizations became key tenants. It was not until the 1980s that the city's perilous financial state eased, after which an increasing number of private companies — mostly financial firms tied to Wall Street — became tenants.
Originally posted by ThatsJustWeirdYou have no idea the speed of which a 110 story building will fall so what are you talking about?
What are you talking about? I thought you said at first that these were weak explosions only to weaken the structure. Also didn't you say they happened when the plane hit. There were people all around there after the plane hit, so how come they didn't notice it?
And there was an EMT who saw explosions go off in the 6.
Go read the Scott Forbes interviews.
Why didn't you answer my question?
And I really doubt if they were going to do a top down explosion that they wouldn't place explosives down the rest of the building to weaken it while the top part does the smashing.
You're right they wouldn't. And they didn't
Originally posted by Crazy_Mr_Crowley
We're forgetting the sacrifice of the fire fighters and police officers of that day.
You'll be hard pressed to find a NY firefighter who doesn't believe bombs were used to bring down the towers and that something else is going on behind the scenes.
Originally posted by LeftBehind
You mean like the firefighters who said that WTC7 was damaged by the fall of the other buildings? The firefighters who saw a 20 storey hole in WTC 7, theyre telling the truth right?
Or should we only listen to the firefighters who support your hypothesis?
Originally posted by Wizy
considering that WTC 7 was emitting tremors long before the final collapse. that fires within the building led to its collapse
love how facts get in the way of your theories
Originally posted by cashlink
Thatsjustweird I gess all the firemen ,police offercers, and news reporters that where there and watch the world trade center explode floor by floor are Liers.
I would take there word over yours any day. YOU WHERE NOT THERE THAT DAY!!!
YOU SAW NOTHING AND YOU KNOW NOTHING.
You have not proved a thing PROVE TO ME THAT ALL THE FIREMEN AND POLICE
"At that point, a debate began to rage because. . . many people had felt that possibly explosives had taken out 2 World Trade, and officers were gathering companies together and the officers were debating whether or not to go immediately back in or to see what was going to happen with 1 World Trade at that point. The debate ended pretty quickly because 1 World Trade came down." [Christopher Fenyo - Firefighter]
[Lieutenant Fireman and former Auxiliary Police Officer, Paul Isaac Jr.] explained to me that, “many other firemen know there were bombs in the buildings, but they’re afraid for their jobs to admit it because the ‘higher-ups’ forbid discussion of this fact.” Paul further elaborated that former CIA director Robert Woolsey, as the Fire Department’s Anti-terrorism Consultant, is sending a gag order down the ranks. “There were definitely bombs in those buildings,” he told me.
The IAS court correctly held that the material respondent provided to the federal government as relevant to its criminal investigation and prosecution of Zacarias Moussaoui should be disclosed, even if it constituted records "compiled for law enforcement purposes" under Public Officers Law ? 87(2)(e) (see John Doe Agency v John Doe Corp., 493 US 146), since respondent did not meet its burden of showing that such disclosure would in fact interfere [*2]with the Moussaoui prosecution or deny him a fair trial. However, substantial portions of those documents should be redacted as falling within FOIL's exception for intra-agency materials (Public Officers Law ? 87[g]), namely, the portions of the oral histories containing the opinions and recommendations of those interviewed, and the portions of the 911 tapes containing the opinions and recommendations of the dispatchers and other of respondent's personnel. Such opinions and recommendations are to be distinguished from factual material, which respondent concedes must be disclosed.
THIS CONSTITUTES THE DECISION AND ORDER OF THE SUPREME COURT, APPELLATE DIVISION, FIRST DEPARTMENT.
8:47 a.m. WTC Security radio report, PA Channel X – “…?… There is a fire on 22.”
8:47 a.m. WTC Security radio report, PA Channel X – “…?… on the 22nd floor a lot of debris.”
0911 PO Houston, PO Davis and PO Wholey are clear of the B-4 level. PO Houston asks, "Where do you need us?" WTC Police Desk responds the 90th and the 22nd floors.
10:19:56 Box 0064-1, location of Alarm Box, Greenwich and Liberty Streets, Deutsche Bank on
22 Floor – Floor Fell
Engine 309 /E 33
Ladder 146 /L 11
Elevators were the primary mode of routine ingress and egress from the towers for tens of thousands of
people daily. In order to minimize the total floor space needed for elevators, each tower was divided
vertically into three zones by skylobbies, which served to distribute passengers among express and local
elevators. In this way, the local elevators within a zone were placed on top of one another within a
common shaft. Local elevators serving the lower portion of a zone were terminated to return to the space
occupied by those shafts to leasable tenant space. People transferred from express elevators to local
elevators at the skylobbies which were located on the 44th and 78th floors in both towers. Each tower
had 99 passenger and 7 freight elevators, all located within the core of the building.
There were 99 passenger elevators in each tower, arranged in three vertical zones to move occupants in
stages to skylobbies on the 44th and 78th floors. These were arranged as express (generally larger cars
that moved at higher speeds) and local elevators in an innovative system first introduced in WTC 1 and
WTC 2. There were 8 express elevators from the concourse to the 44th floor and 10 express elevators
from the concourse to the 78th floor as well as 24 local elevators per zone, which served groups of floors
in those zones. There were seven freight elevators, only one of which served all floors. All elevators had
been upgraded to incorporate firefighter emergency operation per American Society of Mechanical
Engineers (ASME) A17.1 and Local Law 5 (1973).
From a floor in the 50s in WTC 1: "I heard a chunk of ceiling fall and a woman screamed. We all stood and looked at each other and we tried to figure out what happened. We heard the cable snap in the freight elevator while we were talking, and the woman yelled "follow my voice". I followed the woman's voice to find where the stairwell was at to get out." Interview 1000054 (NIST 2004)
From a floor in the 30s in WTC 1: "It [the stairwell] was the closest one to our office. I opened the doorway to the staircase... There was a lot of smoke and there was no one in it. I quickly closed the door." The occupent went to another stairwell down the hall to leave the floor. 1000009 (NIST 2004)
Like the Concourse Level, elevator lobbies throughout the building were particularly affected, likely by excess jet fuel ignited by the crash pouring down the elevator shafts. While only 3 percent [11 survivors] of the survivors reported seeing fireballs in their immediate area at the time of the airplane impact, the observations from the face-to-face interviews show the extreme nature of these events:
A survivor from a floor in the 80s: "The entire corridor became an inferno outside our front door. Smoke began to enter our office. There was also debris falling. ... The fire on the corridor was at least 10 ft high, and it ran the ... good length of the corridor. Then I saw a fireball dome down the elevator shaft and blew the elevator doors. The fireball came right at me; it was a really bright color." Interview 1000055 (NIST 2004)
A survivor from a floor in the 40s: "I saw the elevator in front me had flames coming out from it. The elevator was closed by the flames came from the front where the doors meet and on the sides. They reached about a foot and half, with the flames standing from the floor to the ceiling. I saw a chandelier shaking; it was really moving. The corridor was dim. I also heard people screaming from the [nearby] floor. I felt the heat on my face and I thought that my eyebrows were going to get burned. Black smoke starting filling the corridor, it got really dense really fast." Interview 1000109 (NIST 2004)
A survivor in the basement: "I saw a big bright orange color coming through the basement with the smoke ... A fire ball came shooting out of the basement door." Interview 100760 (NIST 2004)
The elevator lobbies were not the only areas of the building damaged at the time of the airplane impact. Survivors noticed a range of damage and conditions throughout the building, from lost power to fire and smoke, to missing walls and floors....others are more extreme, including collapsed walls, fire and smoke.
A survivor from a floor in the 90s of WTC 1, just below the impact, recounts the severe damage on the floor: "In the hallway (from the bathroom to the elevator), there were no walls left (the wall board was blown off) and the bathroom seemed to be missing (the walls and the floor). There was a hole in the wall near the elevator (in the hall) and fire was coming up onto our floor through that hole." Interview 1000052 (NIST 2004)
A survivor from a floor in the 70s in WTC 1: "To me everything seemed normal, all the ceilings were fine, the electricity was fine, and the air conditioning was also working." Interview 1000118 (NIST 2004)
A survivor from a floor in the 20s in WTC 1: "I was close to the windows. The windows were broken and I saw things from the office were going out the window." Interview 1000064 (NIST 2004)
Despite the massive localized damage caused by the impact, each structure remained standing. However, as each aircraft impacted the building, jet fuel on board ignited. Part of this fuel immediately burned off in large fireballs that erupted at the impact floors. Remaining fuel flowed across the floors and down elevator and utility shafts, igniting intense fires throughout upper portions of the buildings.
The person who used the elevator for evacuation [from WTC 1] reported that he was in an elevator when the building was struck, and the elevator stopped on one of the floors. He was able to use the elevator to move people from that floor to the lobby. Two of the three who used both stairs and elevators were initially trapped in an elevator behind a 50th floor restroom. After freeing themselves, they were directed by firefighters to an elevator to the 44th floor, from which point they walked down. The third person who used both stairs and elevators rode with a person he was assisting from the 52nd floor to the 44th floor. Unable to find a working elevator on the 44th floor, he walked down the rest of the way.