Russian Intelligence Gathering...

Hey all,

OK...I know that this board contains an enormous amount of information...and that some subjects which were once hot issues have become "talked to death" over the life of the board...I have done a search in ats and google, but can't find an answer so, if this has already been thoroughly discussed or is posted in the wrong area, I apologize...I also apologize if it seems like a dumb question...

End of disclaimer.

Question: What amount of intel might Russia or China have been able to gain regarding USAF operations during the Allied maintainance of the "No-Fly-Zones" over Iraq prior to our ongoing war?

I am thinking in terms of the performance of Iraqi air defense systems against allied sorties, as well as things like allied responses, tactics, countermeasures, etc.

In other words, do you think information gleaned from the "No-Fly-Zone" operations has helped the Russians or Chinese learn anything new about American/British anti-aircraft countermeasures/tactics/technological capabilities?

Could it have helped them upgrade their own systems/tactics?

Would this be information they would have been likely to pass on to Iran?

I am interested in the no-fly-zone experience because it involved daily interaction between allied sytems and russian/Chinese equipment/tactics.

And I understand China was in the process of developing a fibre-optic underground cable system to integrate Iraq's pre-war air defense system.

I've searched the board and google, if somebody has an answer to this or knows of where this issue is discussed, please point me in the right direction.

What do you think?

Can't answer all your questions, but there's a good book on the first gulf war called Crusade by Rick Atkinson, where he mentions in passing that the Russians did watch the gulf war with particular interest because it was basically all soviet equipment being tested on the battlefield and they wanted to see how it would fare. He should have a source or footnote for that in his book which could lead to more information.

But given that they were watching, it's almost certain they learned at least some lessons from doing so and made changes as necessary.

Originally posted by apocalypticon
Question: What amount of intel might Russia or China have been able to gain regarding USAF operations during the Allied maintainance of the "No-Fly-Zones" over Iraq prior to our ongoing war?

Not sure nor am I sure that anyone could or would be able to ascertain just what intelligence Russia or China may have given. What is known is that there is great probability that the Russians gave intelligence to Saddam prior to the U.S. led invasion to remove him.

I am thinking in terms of the performance of Iraqi air defense systems against allied sorties, as well as things like allied responses, tactics, countermeasures, etc.

Though I have no sources of yet to back what I am about to claim, I have little doubt that the Russians had spec op units and trainers in Iraq prior to the run-up to the removal of Saddam to give guidance, aid, and training into how to better operate Iraqi air defense systems against Western airstrike tactics, ECMs, etc.

In other words, do you think information gleaned from the "No-Fly-Zone" operations has helped the Russians or Chinese learn anything new about American/British anti-aircraft countermeasures/tactics/technological capabilities?

No doubt, but then again, all the Russians and Chinese had to do was watch CNN, etc. news outlets that were covering the war--virtually from every angle--24-7 to see U.S. and Coalition tactics, etc.

Could it have helped them upgrade their own systems/tactics?

At a cost/price.

Would this be information they would have been likely to pass on to Iran?

Certainly, for a favor or price.

I am interested in the no-fly-zone experience because it involved daily interaction between allied sytems and russian/Chinese equipment/tactics.

Near-daily. Sorties did not run daily (ie: weather, etc).

And I understand China was in the process of developing a fibre-optic underground cable system to integrate Iraq's pre-war air defense system.

Link to the source indicating such? Further, would the outcome have been any different if they had been upgraded?








seekerof

Hey koji_K,

Thanks for the response

I actually have Atkinson's book in my bookcase, so I'll check it out. Thankyou for reminding me of it...

I remember thinking, off and on during that "no fly" period, "I wonder how much intel can be gleaned every time Iraq locks-on to an allied aircraft; how much when they fire, how much when allied craft respond?" etc., etc.

I wonder if it would have served the interests of the Russians or Chinese to withold new "discoveries" about allied capabilities/tactics from Iraq, figuring them for a lost cause, while giving the info to Iran in hopes of getting better use out of it?

Or would they be likely simply to keep it to themselves?

Hey Seekerof,

Thanks for the response...

Your title suggests you might know some things about the subject, and I appreciate your answers.

I'll check for that link on the Chinese fibre-optic system; when I find it I will post it, if I am "mis-remembering" I will also correct that.


Seekerof:

Here is a link to info on China's work in upgrading Iraqi air-defense through a fibre-optic net. There are other accounts, I just chose this one, even though it's from the Washington Times...:

www.nci.org...

Apoc.



[edit on 5/19/2006 by apocalypticon]

Originally posted by apocalypticon
Here is a link to info on China's work in upgrading Iraqi air-defense through a fibre-optic net. There are other accounts, I just chose this one, even though it's from the Washington Times...:

www.nci.org...

Thanks for the source link. Interesting, but being it was a 2001 article, it would appear that the upgraded Iraqi air-defense through a fiber-optic net did not make any type difference in the outcome. Makes me wonder if US military intelligence assets on the ground, prior to the run-up to the U.S. led invasion to remove Saddam, had knowledge of this upgrade and to where such 'main' junction(s) were, thus targeting them and reducing or nullifying any type inherent advantage the air-defense systems may have had. In other words, again, the outcome, even with fiber-optic upgrading, did not change nor was it an impedance.







seekerof

[edit on 19-5-2006 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Seekerof
In other words, again, the outcome, even with fiber-optic upgrading, did not change nor was it an impedance.

Hey Seekerof,

Since the government knew about the Chinese fibre-optic thing in advance of the air campaign I would be willing to bet they planned for it...

I guess my real question is, have the Russians or Chinese made discoveries about allied air systems which they are keeping "up their sleeves" to be revealed at a later time...say, during an air campaign against Iran...or in defense of Taiwan or North Korea?


Apoc.