It is OUR Fence after all.

www.foxnews.com...

Now this is absolutely infuriating. Regardless of how anyone may feel about Immigration, How dare any other country tell us whether we should or should not build a fence. I understand their motivation, of course they want the Illegal Aliens to continue to come here, that way they are rid of them. It is the shear audacity of these other countries to even expect to have a say in our internal workings.

To me this is a direct indicator of the depths our political infrastructure has fallen. Why are we even debating whether some other country "wants" us to put a fence up or not? I have traveled extensively overseas and observed for myself, first hand, the fences and walls that are a standard in a lot of countries. In today's world of Car bombers, shoe bombers, IEDs, and Terrorists, what recourse do we have?

The last time I came back from overseas, at the airport I was required to remove my shoes, take off my coat and shirt and submit to a physical search of my belongings. Where is the search being done on the Illegal Aliens swarming our borders. YES we need a wall, surveillance cameras and a controlled access point so that those truly wishing to come into this country, may do so after being searched and properly identified. Why are we so worried about a Terrorist coming here on a plane, when they can simply walk across our border along any point of the 2000 mile unguarded southern border.

SHEEESH, what a no brainer. There are a lot of posts/threads out there about how the Illegal Alien issue is racial, Xenophobic or anti immigration, I am not talking about that. I am simply referring to a complete and total lack of security in the post 9/11 era. I for one do not want car bombs here, I do not want a terrorist walking across carrying a suitcase nuke into one of our major cities.

Is a fence the ultimate solution? Of course not, but it is something. Something more than we are doing at the present time. I mean it is OUR land, unless you subscribe to the "we stole it and should give it back" mind set, which I do not. Every country has been stolen by someone at one time or another. This is our country now and we have a right to protect it. I have even read all kinds of comments being directed at the Minutemen. Average, ordinary U.S. Citizens, going out and doing what they feel is right and doing it within the limits of the law. Is that not what this country is all about? Government of the People, by the People?

It is our country and we absolutely must secure it. At least as well as we are the airports and seaports. I say build a fence, put up the cameras and put the National Guard there. If someone wants in, go through the channels. So it takes some time, sorry for your luck. There are some of us here that are hanging in there in OUR country trying to right some wrongs and fix some problems. We are not jumping ship and running over anyone else's borders. Maybe some of them should try and fix their country instead of demanding that we allow them complete and unfettered access to ours.

It really is all about security. Not racial, not xenophobic or anything else. Just security.

[edit on 5/19/2006 by semperfortis]

semperfortis,

I understand your reasons for wanting a fence, but respectfully I have to disagree. I think that in the guise of international diplomacy, a fence would send the wrong message to other countries. I do believe that we have to beef up our national security because in the guise of terrorism, this is important. However, the way I think we should do that is to help INS and ICE do their job. Put more funding into the border patrol and law enforcement. And actually use the intelligence community to help fight the war on terrorism.

That is not to say that illegal immigrants are terrorists. Most are hard-working individuals. However, for those who are involved in crime--law enforcement should be allowed to do their job in conjunction with INS.

Originally quoted by semperfortis

The last time I came back from overseas, at the airport I was required to remove my shoes, take off my coat and shirt and submit to a physical search of my belongings. Where is the search being done on the Illegal Aliens swarming our borders. YES we need a wall, surveillance cameras and a controlled access point so that those truly wishing to come into this country, may do so after being searched and properly identified. Why are we so worried about a Terrorist coming here on a plane, when they can simply walk across our border along any point of the 2000 mile unguarded southern border.

I know about searches at the airport--more than anyone. Soon after 9/11 happened, it seemed no matter where I went, I was being "padded down. At first, I felt it was invasive. But as I recognized that these security situations need to be in place in light of what happened, it is almost routine for me to take off my coat, my shoes and be prepared for the wand and the questions.

I think, respectfully, that what you mean is that when people apply to the United States, they have to undergo the same process for identification purposes in order for naturalization. That is logical. However, I feel here too that the immigration process has to be revamped in order for people to come here legally without waiting for twenty years to do so.

Right now, the immigration process in the United States is flawed. Because it is faulty, people--who are desperate to escape their circumstances--will do anything to cross the border. They will even risk death.

Is a fence the ultimate solution? Of course not, but it is something. Something more than we are doing at the present time. I mean it is OUR land, unless you subscribe to the "we stole it and should give it back" mind set, which I do not. Every country has been stolen by someone at one time or another. This is our country now and we have a right to protect it. I have even read all kinds of comments being directed at the Minutemen. Average, ordinary U.S. Citizens, going out and doing what they feel is right and doing it within the limits of the law. Is that not what this country is all about? Government of the People, by the People?

We do have to protect our country. But we have to think of a humane, practical solution to this problem. My problem (and my struggle) about the illegal immigration issue is that people may attempt to use this subject matter for the wrong reasons. And I fear that because it is such an emotional issue that there might be violence because of the rampant nationalism and xenophobia that has come out of 9/11.

Don't get me wrong. I am not accusing anyone here. But, I think that yes, it is infuriating. And yes, our laws toward naturalization has been disrespected. But, I don't think the Minutemen are the answer. I know how people feel about the Minutemen and I don't want to get into another argument about them. However, I will say here that their efforts contribute more to the problem than the solution.

My feelings lie on the side with law enforcement. They do need help. But they don't need vigilantes to aid them. They need our government to support them and tighten up the borders in terms of national security. However, at the same time the dignity of illegal immigrants must be respected as they are apprehended and deported back to their home countries. Or, we must write to our politicians to suggest that they find a humane way to solve this matter before it turns into an ugly fracas which pits American against American.

It is our country and we absolutely must secure it. At least as well as we are the airports and seaports. I say build a fence, put up the cameras and put the National Guard there. If someone wants in, go through the channels. So it takes some time, sorry for your luck. There are some of us here that are hanging in there in OUR country trying to right some wrongs and fix some problems. We are not jumping ship and running over anyone else's borders. Maybe some of them should try and fix their country instead of demanding that we allow them complete and unfettered access to ours.

I agree. We need to have extra security. But, there has to be a middle ground somewhere. After all, I would be the last one to want a police state where you have to look over your shoulder every second of the day.

And yes, I think partly that the illegal immigration policy is because of the flawed foreign relations of the American government since the 1980's. Like it or hate it, America has inserted itself into South American policy and messed it up. I agree that the infrastructure of countries within South America has to be fixed. NAFTA and CAFTA has to be revised in order for people to prosper in their own lands. And it also has to do with class. The poor and the indigenous of these countries are. Something has to be done to help the poor and indigenous in their own countries. Industry must be encouraged and fostered also within these countries.










[edit on 19-5-2006 by ceci2006]

I was glad to see Bush down on the border yesterday, fully supporting the plan to build 370 miles of triple-layer fence. The fence, coupled with the use of the National Guard, and the use of hi-tech "virtual fences" which includes the use of Predator drones, are the beginnings of gaining control of our borders. I'm all for it. After that, and in conjunction with that, we can start to clamp down on employers who hire these illegals. I liked the idea of using a "biometric" ID card that Bush put forth. It will stop the use of forged documents.

As for countries protesting the fence, too bad, so sad. Look at Mexico's southern border. It is truly militarized. How hypocritical for them to complain. We must let the international community know that we are serious about securing our borders and enforcing our laws.

If you want to know what I consider a diplomatic slap in the face, it is the Mexican gov't supplying pamphlets and brochures to assist border jumpers.

I look at the fence as a humanitarian gesture. We are preventing people from dying of thirst and exposure in our deserts.

V. Fox called Bush this past weekend to voice his "concern" for the plan to use the NG on the border. Supposedly, as part of the conversation, it was said that Mexico's main source of revenue was not oil sales or tourism; it was the billions being poured into Mexico by the illegals sending money back home.

So, let the other gov'ts complain. They need to take care of their own house before they have any ground to criticize us.

Humane, practical solutions? Ha! Humanity begins at home. Let their own gov'ts treat them humanely. When we see more co-operation from those gov'ts, maybe we can talk.

Our flawed policies are a result of our "messing up" their countries? It seems that that would make them want to hate us more instead of sneaking in to our country.

And the Minuemen are not vigilantes. That is an out and out lie. You should be ashamed.

As far as calling people xenophobes and nationalists because of 9/11, they have every right to be more cautious. Of course, you will look for every inflammatory term to label them because of it.

Oh, I forgot...nobody knows better than ceci about airport searches, or security, or whatever, right? That makes you the expert.

Originally posted by ceci2006
semperfortis

Right now, the immigration process in the United States is flawed. Because it is faulty, people--who are desperate to escape their circumstances--will do anything to cross the border. They will even risk death.

OK I'll admit the process is flawed, but there is a reason for the limits. The immigration process is "supposedly" set to allow the maximum number of immigrants into the country in regards to their impact on our economy.

Speeding up the "Legal" process is all well and good. My question to you is very simple.

"How do we know there are not Terrorists walking across into the country everyday?"

"How do we keep the Terrorists out, if they wanted to come in by walking across the border if we have no fence, National Guard or other means?"

Whatever you say, jsobecky. We're not debating each other right?

What I say is full of bs. So don't even give my comments any weight.

Go about your business. And throw your weight around somewhere else where they might actually take you seriously.

Sorry, semperfortis. I will write my responses to your post a little later on.

[edit on 19-5-2006 by ceci2006]

Come on!!!
Lets all be nice and talk about the fence. OK?

I really really think this is a HUGE issue. I however do NOT have all of the answers to the questions running around in my head and that's why I wanted input from all of you. There is currently a "write your congressman campaign" going on and a "call your senator" so this has gotten people really un in the air.

Again, I extend my most humble apology. I truly will answer you a little later when things have cooled off. I'm sorry that unfortunately you got caught in the middle of this.

Ceci

Hey,
I love the controversy
This is a heated issue right now. All over the country and even the world. So no apology needed.
I feel strongly as well.

Originally posted by jsobecky
I liked the idea of using a "biometric" ID card that Bush put forth. It will stop the use of forged documents.

The only way to stop the use of forged documents is to implement chipping. This is a path I do not wish to travel. Once people are chipped, how long will it be before they are being mugged and murdered for their chips?

Sorry to hijack the thread, but fences are only part of the solution. The bigger issue is the government is going to use this situation to convince us to give up more of our rights.

No, I don't think chipping is the only answer. A bio card could have unique info that cannot be forged, such as fingerprints.

I would definitely be against chipping people. I'm all for it for wayward pets, tho.

Dark elf, chipping is the only way to go. It's humane and practical. And plus, we'll be able to keep track of all the illegals.

Isn't that nice?

Originally posted by semperfortis
I really really think this is a HUGE issue. I however do NOT have all of the answers to the questions running around in my head and that's why I wanted input from all of you. There is currently a "write your congressman campaign" going on and a "call your senator" so this has gotten people really un in the air.

I was very happy to see that both of my state's US Senators voted in favor of the fence.

As far as currying the favor of the global community, that sounds very much like a John Kerry approach. How did he put it... "a Global Test".

The global community is not interested in our problems. They only want the best solution for their own failed policies, and they want to put their problems on our back.

Speaking of fences, why not build one around the White House? After all, they too have to be protected in the name of national security, right?

And don't forget Canada.

[edit on 19-5-2006 by ceci2006]

If you don't spray your lawn in the spring, your dandelions will become my dandelions.

If you don't erect a 3 layered fence with garrisons and dogs, your immigrants will become my immigrants.

Fences all around and don't forget about Canada. Fence our puotine eatin' arses out too!

I have no problem at all with this idea.

How does the US building a fence along it's border violate the rights of Mexican citizens?

Mexico is yelling and screaming about human rights and their rights to come into the USA, but the Mexican government would never allow Americans to illegally migrate there (not that we would want to)

If they are so high and mighty about human rights, why not change things in their own country?

Also I find it laughable that they are threatening to sue us in our own courts over this.

Originally posted by xander68
Also I find it laughable that they are threatening to sue us in our own courts over this.

Knowing the Leftist bent of some of the US Courts I find cause for concern, not humor.

JIMC5499, if that case ever ends up in the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, there is a very real possibility that Mexico would prevail. They are the most liberal court in the land.

Originally posted by jsobecky
JIMC5499, if that case ever ends up in the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, there is a very real possibility that Mexico would prevail. They are the most liberal court in the land.

That's the Court I was referring to. You know the more I think about it, the more I am in favor of putting a nice dense minefield in between the layers of that fence.