Man shot on California/Mexico Border

Being from Canada, I hold no opinions on the US/Mexico border controversy.

But in relation to the event in question, I would have to sway on the side of the law enforcement agents. The border seems like an unsafe place to be as noted in several other posts and articles on the subject, so actions such as this seem inevitable/unavoidable.

I think this is just one of many stories to come, unfortunately.

Originally posted by darkelf
Niether of the links that you posted say that the driver attempted to run down agents. If that were the case it would explain shooting the driver. I just find it difficult to believe that they would shoot to kill if their lives were not in jepardy. But stranger things have happened.

Val, I agree with everything you've said here.

Hey Dark elf,

May be a page too late (just logged on seems I missed the firestorm) but just to clarify my first post about the shooting. All I did was type down (as close as I could) word for word what old wolfy was spouting into the camera as it broke. That's why there's about a half-hour lapse in time between my start of the thread and my second post with a link.

As I started the thread CNN was just reading what was on the prompter as it came in, the san diego site was a link from CNN and the first site I could find with any info at all on the incident (online at least).

I was not trying to be sensational but just repeating wolf; and again my first post is pretty much word for word what wolf announced.

Now about the shooting, there have been a few different stories out here and hopefully Crakeurs pal can help clear it up but the one I heard on the news repeated the most was that the driver actually had one of the guards pinned against another car and started edging forward, pretty much attempting to crush the agent between the suv and the car in front (or to the side) the agent had no choice, shoot or be crushed like a tin can.

I'd have shot the guy too...if it's an accurate accounting, I still am not sure what really happened and again was as shocked (and a little confused) as anybody when the details started to break.

The most confusing part of this for me is why in the world was someone attempting to smuggle Citizens of Mexico, back into mexico.

Perhaps there is more going on than we know.

Again, Crakeur seems to have the inside track so hopefully he can enlighten us all.

Anyhoo just thought I'd clear things up.

Spiderj

I'm leaving for a well needed vacation this weekend so I passed the link along to my friend with an offer to read and, if he so desires, respond to your questions. I do ask that, should he show up, show hit the same respect you show most of the other visitors.

Cool crakeur thanks for the help.

I would think your friend will be treated well...unless somehow he wants to talk about some anonymous source from within the mexican government who has proof about an exchange between Mexican citizens and a highly advanced race of people from another planet who are really into sundials and kitch...wait we've done that.

I look forward to the inside scoop.

Have fun on vacation. Where ya goin?

If it's MExico I would suggest flying instead of driving.

Spiderj

[edit on 5/19/2006 by Spiderj]

cmdrkeenkid, didn't mean to imply that because it was only one border guard that was threatened by the vehicle, that one wasn't enough, just meant that originally reported in thread, there were four or five.

Sometimes the differences in the story can change the ramifications of the true outcome. If there were 4 or 5 surrounding him chances are they may have not had to shoot. With only one, the chances of him getting away are better.

If some guy tried to swerve into me with his SUV after trying to stop him, I would probably shoot him too.

As far as the tires go, didn't know that about the flat tire trick, just thought it would slow them down enough to apprehend them.

As it turns out the Border Patrol was acting on a tip that the van was hauling illegals in from Mexico. It had already passed the border and was about to be intercepted by the Border Patrol when it turned and started back towards the Mexican border in an attempt to flee.

Thanks Jim, that actually makes a lot more sense. Perhaps he was going for another run, but smuggling people (or attempting to smuggle people) over the busiest most guarded border crossing seems a little stupid.

Maybe it was that whole be lost in the crowd mentality and of course not thinking someone would actually turn the person in.

WHat is the usual sentence for human traficking over international borders anyway?

Spiderj

[edit on 5/19/2006 by Spiderj]

Originally posted by Spiderj
Hey Dark elf,

May be a page too late (just logged on seems I missed the firestorm) but just to clarify my first post about the shooting. All I did was type down (as close as I could) word for word what old wolfy was spouting into the camera as it broke. That's why there's about a half-hour lapse in time between my start of the thread and my second post with a link.

As I started the thread CNN was just reading what was on the prompter as it came in, the san diego site was a link from CNN and the first site I could find with any info at all on the incident (online at least).

I was not trying to be sensational but just repeating wolf; and again my first post is pretty much word for word what wolf announced.

No problem, I was trying to get the facts before passing judgement on the agents. They did what they are trained to do. Although I don't agree with the indiscriminate shooting of illeagals, this appeared to be a righteous shhoting.

St. Barths for a week. no kids. should be relaxing.

Although I don't agree with the indiscriminate shooting of illeagals, this appeared to be a righteous shhoting.

Absolutely, couldn't agree more. What's that line from full metal jacket?

"How can you shoot innocent women and children?"

"Easy, you just lead them a little."

Or was it platoon? Definitely one of the two.

I'm in Los angeles and certainly don't want people to just start shooting at illegals crossing the border.

My fear is the minute man project. I saw the leader on Lou Dobbs and he of course was very clear about the role he sees the minute men playing which is just to observe and report. Which is all well and good but it only takes one idiot with a rifle and over zealous sense of patriotism for this thing to go way wrong.

Though I'm not opposed to the Minute Men as a concept, heck anything to drain the apathy from the citizenry I just hope the volunteers don't go overboard.

But I'm sure thats another thread entirely.

Don't want to hear any knee jerk reaction from the gun nuts. I am a gun nut.

Have fun in St. Barts Crakeur...lucky b*****d.

Spiderj

CNN reporting right now is saying that people crossing the border are very tense and don't believe the man should have been shot.

They are saying the driver of the suv was apparently after five of the guards, border patrol and SDPD. Unclear but it appears he was aiming for one or all of them when they opened fire.

Five passengers in the car, four are illegals who admitted to paying the deceased driver and his partner (fifth passenger) to take them deeper into the states.

Maybe the guy driving the car thought if he turned around and drove back over the border they'd give him the smuggling equivelant of a mulligan.

Fith man, drivers partner being charged with smuggling.

Hope I got the number right.

Spiderj

Originally posted by Spiderj
CNN reporting right now is saying that people crossing the border are very tense and don't believe the man should have been shot.

Of course they don't. They probably think the smugglers are heroes.

Originally posted by 25cents
i hope this is the start of a trend.

This is a dangerous guy!!!!!! I hope that's not the general opinion in the U.S.

Originally posted by cmdrkeenkid
Of course they don't. They probably think the smugglers are heroes.

The problem seems to be a combination of the hero thing and evidently not believing what they are being told by the media and law enforcement.

The further south you go the hotter the topic is I suppose.

Spiderj

Originally posted by GrndLkNatv
Quote:

"Yep, you'd have all relations with our border country to hell in a handbasket in no time if you were in charge, wouldn't you? An all out cold war across on our own border. Thank God you're not in charge. Even the Goober we've got calling the shots right now has more sense than that."

My Response:
so what is Mexico going to use for an army? What military might do they have??? I would imagine a bunch of college weekend ROTC units could wipe their entire armed services out in less than two hours.. Basically, other than you, who in the rest of this entire world cares about Mexico at all??? Let's put it in perspective, Mexico is the toilet of the United States, we treat their people like trash, hire them for nothing, give them no insurance, make them clean our toilets and mow our grass, they are basically paid slaves and you want them to be respected. OMG, what BS.

Mexicans arent the only ones who are paid slaves, just look in a mirror if you are a worker, if not just look your family, your neighborhood, your city etc.

Originally posted by segalindoa

Originally posted by 25cents
i hope this is the start of a trend.

This is a dangerous guy!!!!!! I hope that's not the general opinion in the U.S.

I tend to agree with this sentiment.......

Originally posted by segalindoa
This is a dangerous guy!!!!!! I hope that's not the general opinion in the U.S.

As far as I know it isn't, but this view is gaining momentum. Personally I feel that the illegals should be rounded up and deported. I am also in favor of sealing the border. I have nothing against legal immigrants and as I have stated in previous posts I know several people who immigrated legally from Mexico and am proud to call some of them friends. What I don't like is the disreguard for our laws because the illegals don't like them. Today they don't like the immigration laws, what laws will they decide that they don't like tomorrow? What I can't understand is the Mexican Government's outlook on this. From where I sit it looks to me like they are aiding the illegals in crossing our border, just provided they send money back to Mexico.

It's very sad when a life has to be taken. I can't imagine waht was going thru the drivers head but I believe I'll wait until this is all sorted out.

Originally posted by jbondo
It's very sad when a life has to be taken. I can't imagine waht was going thru the drivers head but I believe I'll wait until this is all sorted out.

I'm guessing he was thinking about how he didn't want to be arrested for smuggling illegals into the US. Thus the whole running from the law and trying to get back across the border thing. Panic and fear makes us do some crazy/foolish stuff.

I'm always wary of government officials who use deadly force. It CAN be warranted, and sounds like it may have been here, but I'm still not a big fan of it, even though I understand and respect their right to prevent themselves from being killed (especially if they are good cops).

A cop in my home town recently gunned down somebody's dog, which I though was pretty screwed up. I've been attacked by dogs since I was a little kid; dogs can since the evil in me or something. I haven't had to kill one yet, and I don't even have the luxury of carrying around a club and pepper spray. So I do believe that some cops are just high strung and love their guns. In this case though, I don't see any indication of that.


But whatever the case, there had better not be a trend!`Valhall is totally right, what trend do you want?

A trend of people putting our border patrol agents in life-and-death situations?

A trend of good men having to go home with blood on their hands and telling their families that if the media goes nuts they might have to take time off pending investigation, even though they were totally right?

Oh, my personal favorite, a trend of US government official killing anyone who crosses the border regardless of direction? (That'll go great I'm sure. Not only will Mexican-Americans riot, poor white guys who can only afford to get drunk in Mexico will riot too.)

Or here's a trend everyone can appreciate: people dying young. For the most part it would be the pitts, but if it's frequent enough it'll fix Medicare a couple generations down the road.