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What is A Cobra Maneuver?

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posted on May, 17 2006 @ 08:49 AM
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Throughout my time in ATS I have heard many times of a Cobra maneuver. I have also heard of a Kulbuit (and have a great clip of a Su-35 doing them) and know what those are. But I don't know what a Cobra is
Yes I'm stupid.

Are the Kulbuit and the Cobra the same thing, or if they aren't, what is the Cobra?




posted on May, 17 2006 @ 09:13 AM
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think of a big S, the aircraft pulls its nose up straight up (reduces power to not rapid climb) then using the maximum surface area of the wing area to produce drag just at the moment of almost stall (since the aircraft has to have enormous thrust to pull the "cobra" off) it powers up to "hang" in the air straight up and down for a moment, remind you it still has some positive forward velocity, then using vectored thrust the rear of the plane is pitched up to bring the plane back on level.

The cobra is a defensive/offensive tactic when you have an agressor on your tail to turn the tables at speed and come back behind the agressor



[edit on 17-5-2006 by robertfenix]



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 12:13 PM
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in real reality the cobra has no effective use in combat. The plane pulling the cobra loses too much airspeed to even be able to lock on to the target as it is almost long gone.



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 12:17 PM
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Im waiting for Seeker's response...


Its basically a tactic that looks great in airshows, and in theory has a use in combat. BUT, its a 1 in a million shot to pull off, and if it fails put the aircraft in a position that all but garantee's it will be shot down.

So, its pretty, but about as usefull as a box of rocks.



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 12:51 PM
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The hardest manouver a plane can make... it looks very simple, but it really puts your plane on test... A cobra is a maneuver when a plane "stops" in top speed for a couple of seconds, and then continues it's travel with high velocity... I don't know if the Americans have done a cobra yet... they claim that the F-22 can do it... The Rusian Su-27 is the only plane that does it by regular basis... The whole point with the cobra is to do it ina close dog-fight... if done correctly, the chaser will become the chased...




posted on May, 17 2006 @ 04:09 PM
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Except that it wont work like that FIN. In combat, energy is everything and at the point where the nose comes back down the Flanker (or whatever is doing a cobra) is hardly moving forwards and has to enter a dive to pick up airspeed again, if it was being chased then the chasing aircraft, either, (if it was close behind) is zooming off into the distance or (if it was further back) has a nice easy target to shoot at. Doing a cobra in combat would not be a wise move.



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 04:18 PM
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Originally posted by skippytjc
Im waiting for Seeker's response...


Yeah, you know my response already, skippy.


EDIT: BTW, the Cobra maneuver is a last resort WVR maneuver, thus with current and future HOBS and HMS, the Cobra maneuver and maneuverability, in general, are pretty much nullified.





seekerof

[edit on 17-5-2006 by Seekerof]



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 05:58 PM
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Originally posted by Figher Master FIN
I don't know if the Americans have done a cobra yet... they claim that the F-22 can do it...

Right here: Langley 2006 Airshow. See the 4min/40mb video described "Video of a F-22A Raptor doing a number of fascinating maneuvers, including a Cobra maneuver: (4min/40mb so be on guard if you have a slow connection)." The video itself is titled: "Just the tip of the Iceburg."






The Rusian Su-27 is the only plane that does it by regular basis...

Because it is simply and only an airshow maneuver best utilized to sell aircraft.






The whole point with the cobra is to do it ina close dog-fight... if done correctly, the chaser will become the chased...

In theory, but in all actuality, the air-to-air combat value of doing such a manuever is death and destruction to the one doing such a maneuver. It is a 'last resort' maneuver that with todays current HOBS and HMS systems, definately makes doing such a manuever pointless and redundant, ensuring nothing but destruction to the aircraft doing the maneuver.







seekerof

[edit on 17-5-2006 by Seekerof]



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 07:07 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof

In theory, but in all actuality, the air-to-air combat value of doing such a manuever is death and destruction to the one doing such a maneuver.


[edit on 17-5-2006 by Seekerof]


Ah, this is good to know. I prefer Kulbuits! But I agree that in a dogfight it MIGHT have a use, but imagine dogfight between Flanker A and Eagle B. Eagle B has called in for an extra aircraft or two, which we shall name Eagle C. Flanker A executes the Cobra which Eagle C is just within AMRAAM range (example AIM-120). With usual airspeed an aircraft can do a few good avoidance maneuvers. But with little or no airspeed these maneuvers are...Well...Impossible or near to it. Flanker A goes boom.

I always though Kulbuits were cooler anyways.



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 08:59 PM
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How useful would some of the other moves performed by supermaneuverable aircraft be?
Like the post-stall loop or the one (I don't know what it's called) where the aircraft stalls, levels itself, and pivots while falling (I'd call it a post-stall pirouette or something).



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 09:10 PM
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Originally posted by XB70
How useful would some of the other moves performed by supermaneuverable aircraft be?
Like the post-stall loop or the one (I don't know what it's called) where the aircraft stalls, levels itself, and pivots while falling (I'd call it a post-stall pirouette or something).

Probably not very useful other than exhibiting the aircraft's maneuverability, XB70.
In the case of the F-22A, the aircraft was designed primarily for BVR and greater. Air Force doctrine has long been shifting from WVR (dog fighting) air-to-air engagements.





seekerof

[edit on 17-5-2006 by Seekerof]



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 09:13 PM
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Well in the case of the post-stall loop, it seems like you can get behind the enemy while still having some speed, since the maneuver terminates in descent (the bottom of the loop would give the aircraft speed via diving).



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 09:17 PM
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Originally posted by XB70
Well in the case of the post-stall loop, it seems like you can get behind the enemy while still having some speed, since the maneuver terminates in descent (the bottom of the loop would give the aircraft speed via diving).

Watching any aircraft do a post-stall loop is absolutely awesome to see.
In one of the videos I provided for the "Langley 2006 Airshow," the Raptor does one of sorts, as well as doing what seemed like a hover or 'helicopter' maneuver.


You raise a valid point(s), but I think it is all a matter of pilot choice, ability, timing, and the aircraft being engaged for deciding such maneuvers.





seekerof

[edit on 17-5-2006 by Seekerof]



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 09:20 PM
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Actually the manoeuvre terminates in the stall, because that is when the missile/cannon rounds shred the aircraft.



posted on May, 18 2006 @ 02:09 AM
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I don't understand why it immediately needs to bring its nose level after executing the cobra. If the cobra suddenly bleeds of a lot of energy then it will mostly be used to force the chasing a/c to fly by.
The Cobra manuever can then be followed a tailslide which will allow the a/c to regain enough energy just in case the close range missile it fired after bleeding energy didn't go home..
The altitude difference would further perplex the initial aggressor.
Here HMS would be the key upper hand.
So why all the worry about this loss of energy?



posted on May, 18 2006 @ 02:34 AM
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If the plane is sliding backwards how can it possibly be gaining energy?
energy = speed and takes time to build up , pilots are loath to bleed off speed as it makes you a sitting duck, while you are oh so gently rolling into the vertical in order to begin building up forward momentum (absolutely necessary whether you tail slide or not) you are nothing more than a big inviting target.

As for allowing your pursuer to overshoot, well this is only of value if your intention is to roll in the opposite direction and try to run away before he turns, otherwise he will likely pass you at something like 800kts or more while you are static. Are you going to get a shot off in these circumstances? I'd say not.



posted on May, 18 2006 @ 04:56 AM
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Darkpr0,

>>
Throughout my time in ATS I have heard many times of a Cobra maneuver.
>>

www.milavia.net...
wmilitary.neurok.ru...
aeroweb.lucia.it...

Google is a wonderful friend and the last one contains minimovies.

To be fair, it is unlikely that the Russians are such morons as to 'invent something without a purpose'. And so it may be that the maneuver is at least /representative/ of something done to screw up the proportional lead guidance of missiles fired in the forward quarter as much as anyone 'closing from behind'. Whether this is through 'doppler' (as a digital speed gradient as much as return effect) or some kind of phase scintillance on radar guided weapons or something related to terminal (prox fuze etc.) spatial passage limits on smaller heat seekers is arguable.

It may also be done to help allay problems with missile weathercocking into the prevailing slipstream, particularly under conditions where you are facing opponents in offensive-split conditions of => 2nm lateral and 5-10,000ft vertical separation. Your first plume is going to be a big cue to everyone around and anything fancy you can do to rapidly align or recapture a given vector state may be worth...something. Compared to vast flat-plated freebie you are handing out to everyone (effectively increasing your acquisition range from 2nm to 20+, instantly).

>>
I have also heard of a Kulbuit (and have a great clip of a Su-35 doing them) and know what those are. But I don't know what a Cobra is
Yes I'm stupid.
>>

The Kulbit (circle or somersault) is an attempt to control vectorline state by playing out of plane without commiting to a banked index as a tell. It preserves progression of the vector but alters timing.

The Bell is basically a combination of the Immelman and Split-S in controlling the total volume of airspace used in repointing of the vector while maintaining the ability (through roll) to commit to another direction of pullout and thus another geometry of intercept curve. The difference being that if you start slow, you don't have to 'run out of' airspeed (like an F-104 in the zoom) before coming back into the fight. If the Flanker is anything like the F/A-18E and its Pirouhette maneuver, there may also be an application as a horizontal plane.

Cobras have been stated to be an element in fooling F-15+AMRAAM guidance loops into 'diving thru' the seeker acquisition or tracking cube. Since almost all kills come from the FQ these days, it makes sense that there must be SOME element of utility beyond the tailgater overshoot defense but it remains a bit of a mystery because monopulse will angle track through the conventional doppler notch and even that is minimalized (transiently) through good PRF leaving and averaged autopilot conservatism.

My own belief is that most warheads are seekr/PF interlinked for rate gyro feeds through such sophisticated autopilot logic that getting slow is asking to be in the bowl with the goldfish when the hand grenade goes off. Whether it is plunked in the water by your ear or merely close outside, the likelihood is high that you will gain at least a little blast damage and quite possibly a facefull of tailored (directional entrainment) buckshot as well.

It didn't always used to be so. There was a time when Eagles came in at 550+ and counted on sustained EM capabilities to shoot-shoot-extend. While Hornets entered at 300 knots and took short Sparrow and medium 'Winder shots to get their noses off before honking across to deal with the wingman. The difference being that the AIM-9L and early M were such narrow bore weapons with such pathetic motors that you had to 'help out' the kinematics and practically handfeed the designated target volumes.

These days, the seekers have better cueing and handoff finesse than the radar does and helmets + 90` boresight values on the seeker, when allied to 6" motors, make it impossible to outrun the NEZ with speed. And unwise to think you can get a cued+widebore shot off before the other guy wakes up and does the same to you.

WVR is just NOT a place to be doing anything but Russian Roulette Rules on throwaway assets.


KPl.



posted on May, 18 2006 @ 10:42 AM
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Here is a good page that shows the kulbit, bell and cobra manuevers

wmilitary.neurok.ru...


Kulbit




Bell





Cobra





posted on May, 18 2006 @ 10:46 PM
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Today Cobra Maneuver has been easy to do.

please click "超级大黄蜂" in this web Original resource is www.airshows.tv but I couldn't find it, so give this pirate link. sorry, if you have copyright direct link please show me.



posted on May, 18 2006 @ 10:51 PM
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Su-37=Sexy. Just got a greeeeeeeat clip of a Su-37. Small file size, short and sweet. Nice Kulbuit, perfectly executed.

Sexy Su-37 Clip

Come to think of it, the only Russian Aircraft I think is REALLY ugly was the Fishbed. It looked like a sausage with wings!




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