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I Once Dreamed of Liberty (Op/Ed)

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posted on May, 19 2006 @ 09:03 AM
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I haven't read this thread in full yet, but I wanted to address a question that was asked on page 1. How have I lost freedoms personally? In 2000 I was arrested at a peaceful anti-death penalty rally in Philly. I was held in a local cell with 4 other smelly hippies for 5 days without legal representation, or a phone call. I was charged with assaulting an officer (complete BS) and was facing 25 yrs.

This may have been said before, but I think the reason that so many people don't notice the loss of freedom is because they don't try to change things. If you're a good little monkey you don't need to be put in a cage. The moment you make waves though, you'd better believe they won't hesitate to put you down.


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posted on May, 19 2006 @ 09:38 AM
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This is funny. Somehow it seems that people in this country have got the idea that the government is recording all of their calls and storing them in a big database somewhere so that they will know all of the intimate details of the lives of everyone in this country. Does anyone realise how insanely impossible that is? The govenment is keeping a database of phone calls made, yes. But then the phone companies themselves are doing that. You can see that evidence on your phone bill each month. And why should I care if the government knows that I called my granny in Omaha 12 times last month. "Uh-oh, another freak that cares about his Grandma. We'd better pick 'em up".

And how did this discussion spiral into that racial debate a moment ago? As far as any race is concerned I would have to ally myself to the the philosophy of W.E.B. DuBois, people will get ahead in society based on their own merits and not upon handouts or violent uprisings. Also I would like to comment that racism is not a "trait" that is monopolized by white people. You will find it among all the races. Take Robert Mugabe, the leader of Zimbabwe, for example. He actions have proved him to be fairly on the racist side. Racial hatred is fostered among all races and it is the responsibility of everyone to notice it in themselves and put an end to it. "Ain't nothing going to work unless you do."



posted on May, 19 2006 @ 09:41 AM
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Rasobasi,

Please post some links of your peaceful protests in Philly in 2000. From what I have found, there seems to be parts missing out of your story. I would like for you to give a full account of the event backed up by some websites to verify.

And yes, assaulting a police officer is almost always a very bad idea. Sorry that you had a bad day.



posted on May, 19 2006 @ 09:50 AM
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Originally posted by Rasobasi420
This may have been said before, but I think the reason that so many people don't notice the loss of freedom is because they don't try to change things. If you're a good little monkey you don't need to be put in a cage. The moment you make waves though, you'd better believe they won't hesitate to put you down.


This is an excellent point. Thank you for bringing it up. And we see how people like Cindy Sheehan are treated by the 'authorities' and by the press and who wants that? So we stay under the radar in hopes that our lives will not be disrupted. AND hoping that the ones who are brave enough to get out there and work for change will do it for us...


There are many people who want to change things. Some actually get out there and do something about it. But far too many (like myself) just hope that we can stay out of the target zone and somehow get through this mess. I'm ashamed to say that, but it's true. I don't want to make waves because I know what will happen.


Originally posted by RoadPebble
Somehow it seems that people in this country have got the idea that the government is recording all of their calls and storing them in a big database somewhere so that they will know all of the intimate details of the lives of everyone in this country.


What indication do you have that people think this? I have not seen it mentioned here. I don't think anyone thinks that.



posted on May, 19 2006 @ 09:59 AM
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Unfortunately, we are controlled by our own debt.


The appointment of General Hayden to the CIA is an attempt to control a revolt within the government.



posted on May, 19 2006 @ 10:21 AM
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Originally posted by pavil
Rasobasi,

Please post some links of your peaceful protests in Philly in 2000. From what I have found, there seems to be parts missing out of your story. I would like for you to give a full account of the event backed up by some websites to verify.

And yes, assaulting a police officer is almost always a very bad idea. Sorry that you had a bad day.


Wow, it sounds as if you don't believe me. As for links to the peaceful protest that I was involved in
www.wsws.org...
www.wsws.org...

However, for those who rely on CNN and Fox to get their news, we were all a bunch of rowdy hooligans just waiting for a chance to cause havok. This is the problem that those who try to make change face, overwhelming propaganda.

As for the assault on an officer, you make it sound as if I was the assaulter, based solely on the charge I was given. Well Pavil, the case was for a waterballoon that I had allegedly thrown. I didn't throw it, there was no evidence I threw it, and the testimony of the officer at which the waterbaloon was thrown said he saw the balloon hit the ground, then he turned around and saw me turn back to the person giving the speach. Complete BS, and the case was dismissed 6 mos later.

ALl of that aside, even if I shot a police offcer at in a violent riot, after an arrest, I'm allowed a phone call and a lawyer upon request.

Bad day? try a bad 6 months. First the week in cruel and unusual conditions, and then the wait to see if I'd spend 25 years in prison for a nonexistant waterballoon.

Edit: Corrected wrong link

[edit on 19-5-2006 by Rasobasi420]



posted on May, 19 2006 @ 10:35 AM
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Rasobasi:

if this is not an eye-opener, I don't know what is.

There have been many posts in thi thread by people who are so pathetically complacent. Well, conformists need no apply. You'll still have the freedom to order pizza at 2 a.m. and have it freshly delivered, and you don't care if this all is done under heavy survelliance and somebody has recorded biometrics of a friend from Taiwan with whom you shared that pizza.



posted on May, 19 2006 @ 12:52 PM
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My mistake. The first article I posted was on a Mumia protest in washington that I was not a part of. The article does still show the loss of freedom.



posted on May, 19 2006 @ 01:01 PM
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Now that I've come back to my senses, I have a question to ask:

How do we convince those who don't believe we aren't experiencing any loss of civil liberties?

They call it propaganda.
They call it liberal bias.
They also call it lies.

What are we to do with them?

[edit on 19-5-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on May, 19 2006 @ 01:16 PM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
How do we convince those who don't believe we aren't experiencing any loss of civil liberties?


To me, it's not necessary to convince anyone of anything. I know we are losing personal liberties and I know that one day, if we keep heading toward the cliff, they will realize it, too. When it affects them personally, they will see. And some, not until then. That's just something I've come to accept.



What are we to do with them?


Live and let live...

[edit on 19-5-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on May, 19 2006 @ 01:28 PM
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I suppose you are right. But, I have a lot to think about this issue. It just seems that there are people who refuse to see the handwriting on the wall. You try to convince them. And they still complain that you are being un-patriotic for complaining.

Sometimes, like today, I felt like what's the use? It seems as if you are talking to a wall--especially when it comes down to the fact that they laugh right in your face about "losing" your civil liberties.

On a day like today, I just get sick of it. I'm tired of the "liberal bias" stuff. And I am sick of being told that I'm naive about something very important to the country.

It's as if all the stories of people being confronted by the feds and those being penalized and robbed of their privacy and liberty don't matter.



posted on May, 19 2006 @ 01:31 PM
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OK folks, let's get back to the topic please.



posted on May, 19 2006 @ 01:45 PM
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How does it become a man to behave towards the American government today? I answer, that he cannot without disgrace be associated with it.
Henry David Thoreau

This sentiment is probably more true now than when originally penned. Of course, I'm interested to see the various interpretations of it that may spring up here.

Many people have a view of what is right and true that will never be changed. Often times, sound logic and convincing discourse is utterly discounted, or distorted in order to shore up a shakey philosophy. Until the frying pan smacks them in the face, they won't know its time to break some eggs. (there's a weird metaphor!)

I have very few ideas that I'm utterly certain about. Number one is; there is a good chance I'm wrong about a bunch of stuff.

I think the leaders of this country do not have our best interests in mind, they could care less if we know it, and they are actively working to promote the interests of the corporations that fill their campaign budgets and give them jobs when they leave public office.



posted on May, 19 2006 @ 01:58 PM
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I think that there is a consensus amongst a lot of people that the government does not have our best interests in mind. After all, the money being made from oil and defense contracts alone should be a warning signal.

And of course, whatever lip service could be paid about the NSA program, they still did it. And who knows when it started? And what purpose it actually serves?

It's easy to believe that they used the system to "root out terrorists". But what if the program was used to tap and datamine the phones of the "opposition"?

[edit on 19-5-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on May, 19 2006 @ 02:08 PM
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Originally posted by RoadPebble
The govenment is keeping a database of phone calls made, yes. But then the phone companies themselves are doing that. You can see that evidence on your phone bill each month. And why should I care if the government knows that I called my granny in Omaha 12 times last month.


Well Pebble, your calling Grandma Goodie isn't of any interest. But think about reporters who need to protect the identity of their sources? Are these sources going to come forward if they know they can be traced? This effectively puts an end to whistle blowers. The potential for abuse is enormous.



posted on May, 19 2006 @ 02:13 PM
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The CIA has already done their part to prevent their workers from leaking classified documents. I still wonder what might have happened if we didn't know about the abuse at Gitmo.

[edit on 19-5-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on May, 19 2006 @ 05:34 PM
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My question is why should warrants not be used to undertake surveillance? Why should the courts be prevented in taking part in this process as well as in establishing the legitimacy of it?

Effectively, these pursuits by the US government are dismantling the US court and justice system. This usurpation of power will severely disrupt the checks and balances system in the government. We've already seen a case recently where, when the courts were trying establish the legitimacy of the NSA spy program for international calls, the government refused to grant them security clearance and the case had to be dismissed. Does justice no longer apply to the government?

[edit on 19-5-2006 by Jamuhn]



posted on May, 19 2006 @ 11:37 PM
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Jamuhn, as I've seen from other comments on various threads today...apparently not. The government is doing their business in looking out for themselves. And there are just a group of people who are willing to swallow it hook, line and sinker--even if it sells out the civil liberties and privacy of their fellow man.



posted on May, 19 2006 @ 11:44 PM
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Originally posted by Rasobasi420
My mistake. The first article I posted was on a Mumia protest in washington that I was not a part of. The article does still show the loss of freedom.


Wow, a link from the World Socialist Website.... Go figure...

And to all these people who like to name call, belittle and insult those of us who don't agree with them, you can stick your insults, belittling comments and name calling where the sun don't shine.


If the Mods want to "warn me, flag me" or "ban me" for doing the same thing other members have been doing, and the staff has stood by and done nothing, because they agree with the agenda of those who keep insulting....go ahead.... It will show where the real dictatorship is...

[edit on 19-5-2006 by Muaddib]



posted on May, 19 2006 @ 11:49 PM
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No, Muaddib. In fact, I complimented you today. I envy your outlook in life. You believe in your President. You don't believe that there isn't any race. You don't worry about your civil liberties. And I bet you just want to build that wall, don't you? There's nothing to worry about.

I just want to know how to not to worry about the government corruption, civil liberties and of course issues of privacy from you. And I also want to know about your take of history--knowing that it doesn't have any examples of social struggle--except in the American way, of course.


What's your secret? Why do you think this way?

[edit on 20-5-2006 by ceci2006]




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