I Once Dreamed of Liberty (Op/Ed)

And.....
We are WAY!!! past that specific conversation point sea-law

Please catch up and join the rest of us, then you can grandly search the internet for your opinion on the topic at hand.

What, because no one called you on that bs back a few days ago it's to be accepted by the forum as gospel? I didn't know there was a statute of limitations on replies.

C'mon, semperfortis, you can do better than that.

You apologists toss around "facts" to support this invasion but when those "facts" are called into question you run and hide. First it was about WMD threatening the West, up to and including nukes, then it was the 'Bad Man' with his chemical weapons, then it was about bringing freedom and democracy to the people, now it's about helping those poor Iraqis deal with those insurgents from ... ? Iraq?

The bugle call of retreat is loud and clear. Maybe the little mouse will applaud your jingoism but there are some here that require more than simple flag waving and finger-pointing to support an argument.

But I guess if that's all you brought to the fight you'll have to make due.

OHHHH
And here I thought this was a debate forum.

I fail to resond to language that tests the bounds of intellect and degrades the conversation into attacks of one anothers charactor.

But if you would care to go back and read, actually read the speeches
given by the DEMOCRATS in support of going to Iraq, especially where they admitted to reading ALL of the intelligence reports available to the president.

Funny how all of you are so patriotic days after 9/11 and ready to go do something, heck even accusing the president of not doing enough, but when it sinks in that you are all safe in your little beds and people actually have to die to engage in a war on terror, ON distant shores, well then, now your all, "This is wrong!!!" "We should get out" etc.

What happened to the flags waving on each house? What happened to your nerve and resolve? The Intelligence has not changed, just the democrats interpretation of it.

And please, just debate, the name calling and personal attacks are very old "hat" and do nothing to further your position.
Just because you have an opinion, does not in anyway make you right. Nor does it me, we are arguing points with only that information available to the public and not the full picture. So to entertain our comments as other than opinions is ludicrous. Opinions are just like body parts, we all have them and most of them stink.

Originally posted by semperfortis
OHHHH
And here I thought this was a debate forum.

Then debate me.

I fail to resond to language that tests the bounds of intellect and degrades the conversation into attacks of one anothers charactor.

You can handle a fire-fight but not this thread?

But if you would care to go back and read, actually read the speeches
given by the DEMOCRATS in support of going to Iraq, especially where they admitted to reading ALL of the intelligence reports available to the president.

Blah, blah, blah ... Get real pal. You can't put this fiasco off on the dems. This is ENTIRELY the Republicans' war. You wanted it - you got it. For a change I wish the Repub's would own something. It's called accountability. Look it up.

Funny how all of you are so patriotic days after 9/11 and ready to go do something, heck even accusing the president of not doing enough, but when it sinks in that you are all safe in your little beds and people actually have to die to engage in a war on terror, ON distant shores, well then, now your all, "This is wrong!!!" "We should get out" etc.

LOL. Like all Repubs caught in a corner all you can think to do is attack the perceived enemy rather than think critically. God forbid any of you actually acknowledge that you made a mistake. It's not that what Bush is doing isn't enough. It's that what he's doing is ALL WRONG. What you can't stand to imagine is that the people dying and being mutilated in Iraq are doing so without ultimate purpose or meaning except to say they are doing it selflessly. A selfless act is worthy of honor. And I honor them for their efforts. They cannot help that their leaders are idiots.

What happened to the flags waving on each house? What happened to your nerve and resolve? The Intelligence has not changed, just the democrats interpretation of it.

More jingoism. We all know what nationality we are. I wish those elected officials who wear those flag lapel pins would choke on them. Do they think we don't know who we elected to REPRESENT US? Damn right you're working for us. And don't forget it.

And please, just debate, the name calling and personal attacks are very old "hat" and do nothing to further your position.

I thought semperfortis was your chosen handle? What other name would you prefer?

Just because you have an opinion, does not in anyway make you right.

My opinion makes me right if it reflects the truth accurately. I do believe I am right or I would not hold that opinion.

Nor does it me, we are arguing points with only that information available to the public and not the full picture. So to entertain our comments as other than opinions is ludicrous. Opinions are just like body parts, we all have them and most of them stink.

Your statement is nonsensical. And my body parts do not, most of the time, stink. Perhaps you should shower more often. Leave off the excuses and engage in the debate or submit. Those are your options. Resistance is futile. Ask the Borg.

first semper address my last post I made to you, Id appriciate that.

Then I would like to say not all americans were for this war to begin with. Not all of us switched up and turned our backs when times got hard, we were never for it to begin with. You can talk to those who went two face on you when the war got worse like you just have, but not to us, people who never liked it from the start. As soon as I heard 'war of terror' I knew we lost and I was against it. Thats where I stand, and always have.

And thats what the ignore button is for, those that refuse to not get personal.

So bye now, thanks for the good times and all.

And if you ignore the truth for long enough, so will your mythical reality continue to be true for you.

Sleep on my bewildered friend. Sleep on.

[edit on 29-5-2006 by seattlelaw]

Hi SL - I've "debated" Semperfortis before and as reading the above thread shows, his tactics are

• never address an argument
  
• make ad hominem attacks but then
  
• pretend to "rise above" ad hominem attacks when one is foolish enough to get dragged in
  
• retreat into flag-waving
  
• make spurious claims of mental and moral superiority and above all
  
• NEVER, EVER BRING ANY FACTS OR RATIONAL ARGUMENT TO THE TABLE
  

He's put you on ignore. It's a sure sign that he can't conduct, let alone win, a rational argument.

semperfortis:

Maybe you could at least give me a slightly bigger picture about what's taking so long. I'd like to know why it takes all this time for the Iraqi people to act on their own behalf. They can't even agree on the proper police force for the country, let alone how to run it. How can anything get done when they themselves don't trust one another enough to sit down and talk?

This is what happens as a result of the people of Iraq not revolting on their own. We butted into their lives, and took what order their country had away. Now do I agree with the way that Hussein ran it? Hell no. But at the same time, the people by large obeyed him because they feared him. In time, it is my opinion that that fear would have festered to the point of coming out in all out revolution. It's a staple of any political regime that when the people that are being ruled over have had enough, they WILL take back control. That's why it's in the best interests of the rulers to rule for the sake of the governed, else they lose the power they have.

I agree that anyone that's been attacked has the right to a response, but a timely one. If it takes more than 4 months to take down the people responsible for the attack, then the US isn't doing something right. Thirty years ago I could understand it taking this long, but not now. My main peeve about Iraq though is that Bush Sr was the one that invaded Iraq first. He didn't catch Hussein. Bush Jr felt that he had the opportunity to "finish daddy's work", or at least that's the impression I get from the whole mess.

Not to mention the logistics of our going there were flawed in their own right. There were no terrorist ties to Iraq made publicly that were stable enough to even merit an investigation, let alone a full-on invasion. It's a scary notion that the US could possibly be wrong in this, and I don't believe we are entirely. But I hope that for my men and women over there fighting that the US isn't wrong. If there's evidence that the terrorists involved in 9/11 were and are in Iraq, then I would like someone to show me. That would change my opinion quite drastically. I would at least favor the invasion a bit more. I still don't like it though. If the US happens to be wrong, then I fear for all of us, for we may have become the very enemy we've been trying to fight.

TheBorg

Originally posted by TheBorg
semperfortis:

I'd like to know why it takes all this time for the Iraqi people to act on their own behalf. They can't even agree on the proper police force for the country, let alone how to run it. How can anything get done when they themselves don't trust one another enough to sit down and talk?

This is what happens as a result of the people of Iraq not revolting on their own. Now do I agree with the way that Hussein ran it? Hell no. But at the same time, the people by large obeyed him because they feared him. In time, it is my opinion that that fear would have festered to the point of coming out in all out revolution. It's a staple of any political regime that when the people that are being ruled over have had enough, they WILL take back control. That's why it's in the best interests of the rulers to rule for the sake of the governed, else they lose the power they have.

I agree that anyone that's been attacked has the right to a response, but a timely one. If it takes more than 4 months to take down the people responsible for the attack, then the US isn't doing something right. Thirty years ago I could understand it taking this long, but not now. My main peeve about Iraq though is that Bush Sr was the one that invaded Iraq first. He didn't catch Hussein. Bush Jr felt that he had the opportunity to "finish daddy's work", or at least that's the impression I get from the whole mess.

Not to mention the logistics of our going there were flawed in their own right. There were no terrorist ties to Iraq made publicly that were stable enough to even merit an investigation, let alone a full-on invasion. It's a scary notion that the US could possibly be wrong in this, and I don't believe we are entirely. But I hope that for my men and women over there fighting that the US isn't wrong. If there's evidence that the terrorists involved in 9/11 were and are in Iraq, then I would like someone to show me. That would change my opinion quite drastically. I would at least favor the invasion a bit more. I still don't like it though. If the US happens to be wrong, then I fear for all of us, for we may have become the very enemy we've been trying to fight.

TheBorg

Borg,
The "finish daddies work" is one of the more popular catch phrases lately, and perhaps there is some truth to it, yet I feel it does not in anyway eliminate our necessity for doing what is right in the world.

www.whitehouse.gov...

As for what is taking so long? Well it would be my opinion that we are basically helping them to rebuild their nation and doing it under some distress. I can not imagine anyway that this could be facilitated on a fast track.
For how many years now have they been completely reliant on the instructions of a madman? Son turning in father, brother against brother, all the while entire societies being wiped out.

As for them not revolting on their own. (no pun I am sure) The people of Germany never revolted enmass' against Hitler and they were far more enlightened than the average Iraq citizen. I believe it is part of their culture and their core beliefs. That is also why it will take a long time for them to embrace any sort of freedom, if they ever do.

That is where I have the problem with what is going on. Not that we are trying to do something good in the world, but that because of the vast cultural differences, it will be effectively impossible. The Muslim culture would seem to negate any form of government except that of a dictatorship. At least in my opinion having read the Quran. The amount of control required by the Quran in their society is going to be difficult at best with a group leadership.

Saying that the terrorists were not in Iraq is like saying they are/were not in America, or Indonesia. They are everywhere and the government of Iraq under Saddam was a breeding ground for religious fanatics and potential terrorist. I believe there were several tapes confiscated that were indicative of that as well.
www.cnn.tv...
abcnews.go.com...
And again it is easy to sit here now after having not been attacked again and start to feel comfortable and safe. We have already let the horse out once before closing the barn door, I for one hope that we continue the fight over there before it comes over here again.
Again Borg, as I have already stated all of us on here are postulating with only that information available to us through the news and other sorts of media, so these are my opinions.

Originally posted by rich23
Hi SL - I've "debated" Semperfortis before and as reading the above thread shows, his tactics are

• never address an argument
  
• make ad hominem attacks but then
  
• pretend to "rise above" ad hominem attacks when one is foolish enough to get dragged in
  
• retreat into flag-waving
  
• make spurious claims of mental and moral superiority and above all
  
• NEVER, EVER BRING ANY FACTS OR RATIONAL ARGUMENT TO THE TABLE
  

He's put you on ignore. It's a sure sign that he can't conduct, let alone win, a rational argument.

You have voted rich23 for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

Thanks for the warning.

original quote by:semperfortis
We have already let the horse out once before closing the barn door, I for one hope that we continue the fight over there before it comes over here again.

Semper, Although you and I may believe vastly differently as to WHO the enemy that attacked us on 911 may be. But in this case that is not really of importance; as I know you have nothing but undying love for this nation. Also I value and respect your lasting commitment to finding the truth.

That being said, your quote above left me with one question for you. What makes you really believe that if we are engaged over seas that the terrorists cant still attack us here? They are Intelligent enough to pull off the greatest attack in American history since Pearl Harbor..yet by the same note they are unable to handle both a fight on one of their many fronts- since we all know there are no borders on this war- and pull off yet another attack here at the same time.

I'm only asking this is because I feel that this strategy, as it pertains to the WOT, is kind of naieve in its conception.. and Im sure you are NOT naieve. Nor did YOU come up with that mantra.. it has been touted many times by our coveted public officials for years now.. so please dont think I am insulting you. I just know your smarter then that statement that you made.

Please understand that I AM NOT calling YOU naieve or ignorant...just the statement

But tone, if you had called me something derogatory, you may have been voted WATS. LOL

Sorry that was too funny for words.

As for your question, I don't.
I base my opinion solely on past proven performance, (we have not been attacked again), that and by all actual military accounts, we have crippled the enemy. Yet again, there are many negative as well as positive reports coming in from Afghan. so I do not have the information necessary to definitively say we "will not be attacked" as long as we fight over there. It is just a logical progression IMO.

As for worrying about the name calling, if I was so inept, why would they spend so much time, energy and WATS votes to align against me? Some people hate all thing patriotic and well ... I am definitely patriotic and comments from the nay-sayers are not going to change that. They hate Bush for being strong and true to his convictions as well so I figure I am in good company.

Originally posted by semperfortis
But tone, if you had called me something derogatory, you may have been voted WATS. LOL

Sorry that was too funny for words.

As for your question, I don't.
I base my opinion solely on past proven performance, (we have not been attacked again), that and by all actual military accounts, we have crippled the enemy. Yet again, there are many negative as well as positive reports coming in from Afghan. so I do not have the information necessary to definitively say we "will not be attacked" as long as we fight over there. It is just a logical progression IMO.

As for worrying about the name calling, if I was so inept, why would they spend so much time, energy and WATS votes to align against me? Some people hate all thing patriotic and well ... I am definitely patriotic and comments from the nay-sayers are not going to change that. They hate Bush for being strong and true to his convictions as well so I figure I am in good company.

No worries on the name calling as I do not believe that contributes to ANY debate. And have learned my lesson AFTER my D-Ego got the better of me a while back

I can see why you would think the way you do (based on our track record since 911 and nothing HAS happened.) Also, I hope the assesment of the enemies strength is accurate. And even though we are on opposite sides of the isle, as to how to go about this WOT we can both agree that we no less love our great nation then the other. We as a nation will always progress when we concentrate on what brings us together, rather than what makes us seperated. "united we stand, divided we fall"... Im sure you take this statement as much to heart as I do sir. And of course the only healthy govt-like any GOOD marraige- is based on trust and compromise.
Alot of people dare say they have lost alot of that trust along the way...whether it be due to any of the number of administraiotns over the last 70 years or so(depending on who you talk to.)While at the same time; some feel nothing BUT trust for our govt.

"you can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people, some of the time. But, you cannot please all of the people, all of the time."

Kinda throws a monkey wrench into the program huh? Hence the overwhelming need for COMPROMISE between our own people(not compromise on terror) But we must remain alert and aware of enemies from without and within. The enemies from within, to me is: Anyone that dares to try to usurp our Constitution. I dont care what party someone is from. Being, that I have shed the shackles of political affiliation. I am now able to see things from many more perspectives then I ever could as a Republican(yes I was a republican, as taught to me by my grandfather to be for small govt, fiscal conservatism, etc...)
In college, as it happens to many of our youth there, I swung over towards the left as I learned more and more of the atrocious things that were and are going on.
But as Ive gotten older I realize the need for ive settled down comfortably in the middle. Dont mistake middle for "fence sitter" as I am very strong in my beliefs and knowings.

Please focus on issues and not personalities.

This and other ATSNN threads are not for petty personality disputes.

It ends here.

Thank You SO, I shall remember that as well.

Tone, I can only say one thing to that.

It was eloquent, well put and thought provoking.

I just voted you for WATS

Originally posted by semperfortis
Thank You SO, I shall remember that as well.

Tone, I can only say one thing to that.

It was eloquent, well put and thought provoking.

I just voted you for WATS

thank you semper, I am humbled, by your coutresy and praise.

AND sorry SkepticOverlord if I have in any way, offended you or your thread(dont think I did , but wanted to be sure).
I truly enjoyed your OP/ED! The poetry of language used sitrred a call within me to do more! thanks

What a schmooze fest. It's all rhetoric without any substance. Address the issues raised by the thread and dialogue. Quit the ugly love fest. Not that there's anything wrong with that kind of thing - in private - but I'm about to hurl.

Remove the cocoon of your condescension and address the issues raised or please leave off.

Originally posted by semperfortis
That is where I have the problem with what is going on. Not that we are trying to do something good in the world, but that because of the vast cultural differences, it will be effectively impossible. The Muslim culture would seem to negate any form of government except that of a dictatorship. At least in my opinion having read the Quran. The amount of control required by the Quran in their society is going to be difficult at best with a group leadership.

Which brings me back to my main question. Why are we there if the people we're trying to free don't want to be free? We cannot, in good concience, FORCE a nation to be free, can we? They have to make that decision on their own. If they don't, then they aren't free. Who are we to dictate who is and is not free? See where I'm going with this? It's obvious that this administration cares nothing for the desires of the people that they're supposedly helping, or they'd listen to them. So what, 8 million Iraqis voted in the last election. Out of how many Iraqis total? It's an unfair judgement call for us to make. Matter of fact, it's not one we should be making for them. Again, THEY must decide what THEY want. I bet even SO agrees with that, huh SO?

Saying that the terrorists were not in Iraq is like saying they are/were not in America, or Indonesia. They are everywhere and the government of Iraq under Saddam was a breeding ground for religious fanatics and potential terrorist. I believe there were several tapes confiscated that were indicative of that as well.
www.cnn.tv...
abcnews.go.com...
And again it is easy to sit here now after having not been attacked again and start to feel comfortable and safe. We have already let the horse out once before closing the barn door, I for one hope that we continue the fight over there before it comes over here again.
Again Borg, as I have already stated all of us on here are postulating with only that information available to us through the news and other sorts of media, so these are my opinions.

That brings up another discrepancy that needs mentioning. We haven't been attacked again since 9/11, and yet we have literally thousands of undocumented people flooding over our borders at all hours of the day and night, carrying God knows what. For all we know, they could be terrorists planning an attack on us from the inside. How is it in the best interests of the people to "take the fight to them" when we cannot even keep unwanted people out of our own country? That's kind of pathetic, now don't you think so?

To keep another 9/11 from happening, I suggest we make a bigger deal out of securing our borders. You would know, if anyone would, how important it is to secure a perimeter around your camp once you set it up. It's VITAL to survival. Well, we need to do the same thing here I think. It's only in our best interests. Once that's done, then I would concede sending out scouting parties to keep watch on the surrounding areas.

I'm just trying to grapple why it is that the Iraqi People's safety is being considered more heavily than our own in this time of war. Why is it that we seem so vulnerable right now? With the borders as open as they are, and the President trying to pass Legislation that goes directly against everything this nation stands for, I can't help but feel that we're setting ourselves up for another attack. We're practically inviting it. I just pray that that doesn't happen, for everyone's sake.

TheBorg

[edit on 30-5-2006 by TheBorg]

"Which brings me back to my main question. Why are we there if the people we're trying to free don't want to be free? We cannot, in good concience, FORCE a nation to be free, can we?"


the other side of the equation is whether our defination of freedom means the same as theirs...in many cultures american style freedom is considered vulger and smacks of anarchy and lisence. It is the subtle differences in language and culture that often spark resentment and hostility, especially if it is being imposed from outside. That is one reason why both Iraq and Afghanistan are such a mess. That and the fact we bungled the whole mess. But what do you expect from a presidency that proudly proclaimed once that they didn't do nuiance.