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Abraham: What's the moral?

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posted on May, 16 2006 @ 08:07 AM
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Okay, I'm a little confused by this story, so please indulge me.

The story goes as follows(well as much as I remember it):Abraham and his wife Sarah, have a baby that they call Issac. Obviously Abraham knows that God helped them have the baby, and God told him duely that he had a hand in it. When Issac grew up, he was a good and strong boy, then one day God told him that he had to sacrifice Issac. Abe was a little depressed about that, but on he went climbing the mountain to the sacrfraficial stone, where they placed the fire and wood. Issac looking reasonbly perplexed asked. "Where's the sacrifice daddy?" Abraham just smiply replied "God will provide the sacrafice."(By the way, isn't that lying? It's certainly misleading...) Abe then ties Issac to the sacrificial stone (by now he should've at least said something) Then Abe proceeds to strike a killing blow, until an angel says "NO. Don't kill him for it was only a test" Then God provides a lamb and they give thanks.

What's the moral?




posted on May, 16 2006 @ 09:25 AM
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At this time in history human sacrifice was fairly common in pagan religions. The unltimate moral of this story is that Abrahams G-d was showing him that he does not require human sacrifice. He took him through all the steps and then stopped him a the last second to show him the difference between HIM and pagan dieties. While pagan dieties never interviened on a humans behalf G-d did and then provoded Abraham with an appripriate sacrifice thereby showing that human life is most precious and should not be taken. Does this make more sense?? I will post later with some references.



posted on May, 16 2006 @ 09:36 AM
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Perhaps the moral is that God did provide a sacrifice. He sacrificed His own Son. What love for us that He would let His Son die for our inequities. Perhaps He was showing Abraham how much He loves us as Abraham was showing how much he loved God.



posted on May, 16 2006 @ 10:27 AM
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Originally posted by darkelf
Perhaps the moral is that God did provide a sacrifice. He sacrificed His own Son. What love for us that He would let His Son die for our inequities. Perhaps He was showing Abraham how much He loves us as Abraham was showing how much he loved God.


Your time frame is waaaay off here. This happened before the Torah was even given, before Moses and waaaaaaay before Jesus was supposed to have lived.



posted on May, 16 2006 @ 10:27 AM
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Jean-Paul Sartre had a pretty interesting take on the Abraham story, but personally, I could never see eye-to-eye with him.



[edit on 5/16/2006 by yeahright]



posted on May, 16 2006 @ 10:30 AM
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Originally posted by kokoro

Originally posted by darkelf
Perhaps the moral is that God did provide a sacrifice. He sacrificed His own Son. What love for us that He would let His Son die for our inequities. Perhaps He was showing Abraham how much He loves us as Abraham was showing how much he loved God.


Your time frame is waaaay off here. This happened before the Torah was even given, before Moses and waaaaaaay before Jesus was supposed to have lived.


It's prophetic. Not sure where you got the refernce to the Torah. It's a love story.



posted on May, 16 2006 @ 11:14 AM
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MacDonagh///
Whats the Moral?

Well its prophetic as darkelf said.

And the Old Testament is a Pre-figuration of Christ..the whole book.

The story of the sacrifice of Isaac is a pre-figuration of the Son of God.......sacrifice for all.
The Old Testament is full of Prophetic prophecies concerning the coming Messiah...Jesus Christ...
Also the story of Jonah and the 3 days in the belly of the Whale....3 days of the Suffering of Christ.and many more......

READ///
16. The Offering of Isaac as a Sacrifice.




The offering of Isaac in sacrifice was a prefiguration to men of the Saviour, Who, being the Son of God, would be offered by His Father as a sacrifice for the sins of all men by death on the Cross.

Isaac, appearing as a prefiguration of the Saviour over two thousand years before the Birth of Christ, foreshadowed, according to God’s will, Jesus Christ. He, like Jesus Christ, went without complaint to the place of sacrifice. As Jesus Christ bore the Cross Himself, so Isaac himself carried the wood for the sacrifice.

The mountain on which Abraham offered Isaac in sacrifice received the name of Mount Moriah. Later, at God’s command, King Solomon built the Temple of Jerusalem on this mountain.

LAW OF GOD

More pre-figurations....
Also here.
www.orthodoxfaith.com...



16. The Offering of Isaac as a Sacrifice.
Also from here....///
www.orthodoxphotos.com...




“Take this book of the law and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God” (Deuteronomy 31:26).
The successive holy authors continued writing their books with specific requests that they be included with the five Books of Moses, as though it was one Book. For example, in Joshua 24:26 we find “And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law,” i.e. in the book of Moses.
Similarly with Samuel, the prophet and judge that lived at the beginning of the Kings’ period, it was written that “Samuel explained to the people the behavior of royalty, and wrote it in a book and laid it up before the Lord” (1 Sam. 10:25) i.e. to the side of the ark where the other books of Moses were kept.

www.fatheralexander.org...

helen



posted on May, 16 2006 @ 12:09 PM
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The best work on the topic is Soren Kierkegaard's "Fear and Trembling."

He takes apart every aspect of the story from psychological, symbolic, moral, and religious grounds.

A "Must read."

.



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 11:26 AM
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Ta folks for the response. A lot of information though...



posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 06:12 PM
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Originally posted by kokoro
At this time in history human sacrifice was fairly common in pagan religions. The unltimate moral of this story is that Abrahams G-d was showing him that he does not require human sacrifice. He took him through all the steps and then stopped him a the last second to show him the difference between HIM and pagan dieties. While pagan dieties never interviened on a humans behalf G-d did and then provoded Abraham with an appripriate sacrifice thereby showing that human life is most precious and should not be taken.


Excellent answer.

Also, obedience, faith, trust were demonstrated by Abraham.



posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 06:24 PM
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Originally posted by MacDonagh
What's the moral?


Obviously, this God likes to mess with people's heads. He was "testing" Abraham, even though as God he certainly would have known that Abraham would cut his kid up into little pieces and eat him if God told him to do it.

So this is another story where God is shown as "needing" something, which is logically preposterous. Therefore, the God in the story is most likely Saklas, or Yadalbaoth, the insane God of Chaos.

Actually, if I remember the story correctly, God didn't personally stop Abraham, but rather an "angel" stopped him, just in time. As with Sodom and Gammorah, angels step in sometimes when Yadalbaoth is in a killing mood.



posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 10:10 PM
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Originally posted by Enkidu

Actually, if I remember the story correctly, God didn't personally stop Abraham, but rather an "angel" stopped him, just in time.


Actually you're not remembering right.

Genesis 22:[11] And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I

When the Bible says "The angel of the Lord" it is referring to Jesus, who is God, so God did tell Him to cease.

Also 1 Corinthians 2:14 comes into play for those who won't understand the lessons in the Bible.

I Corinthians 2:[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


[edit on 16-6-2006 by dbrandt]

[edit on 16-6-2006 by dbrandt]



posted on Jun, 18 2006 @ 11:14 AM
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Originally posted by dbrandt
When the Bible says "The angel of the Lord" it is referring to Jesus


When the Bible says "The Angel of the Lord" it is referring to a divine messenger who speaks with God's voice.

It has nothing to do with Jesus.

It also doesn't imply a subordinate stepping in on his own behalf to correct one of God's boo-boos, though.



posted on Jun, 18 2006 @ 11:45 AM
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Originally posted by Two Steps Forward

It has nothing to do with Jesus.



Yes it is Jesus when it says "the angel of the Lord".

Judges 13:[1] And the children of Israel did evil again in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD delivered them into the hand of the Philistines forty years.
[2] And there was a certain man of Zorah, of the family of the Danites, whose name was Manoah; and his wife was barren, and bare not.
[3] And the angel of the LORD appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.
.....................[21] But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD.
[22] And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

Samson's man and dad were visited by "the angel of the Lord" pay particular attention to verse 22, that is when they realize who they spoke to and saw.



posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 03:42 AM
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Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by kokoro
At this time in history human sacrifice was fairly common in pagan religions. The unltimate moral of this story is that Abrahams G-d was showing him that he does not require human sacrifice. He took him through all the steps and then stopped him a the last second to show him the difference between HIM and pagan dieties. While pagan dieties never interviened on a humans behalf G-d did and then provoded Abraham with an appripriate sacrifice thereby showing that human life is most precious and should not be taken.

Excellent answer. Also, obedience, faith, trust were demonstrated by Abraham.

I agree, that is very similar to my take on it. I see it as a morality tale intended to explain why human sacrifice is no longer appropriate. Instead, it teaches that an animal is to henceforth take the place of the human offering. Certainly, the obedience, faith, and trust Abram demonstrates is compelling. I must admit, I doubt that mine is as strong. I do have a strong faith, but am not a Christian, and if I was told to kill my son, I can't see what God could possibly say to motivate me to obey. It would have to be a damn good reason, whatever it was.



posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 05:43 AM
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I don't understand. Jesus is man, God, Son of God and now also Angel of the Lord? Something fishy going on......

I mean, I get that Jesus would be in the Old Testemant if he was to be valid for the new one, but does that mean that EVERY single reference to GOD has to be connected to Jesus?

[edit on 19-6-2006 by babloyi]



posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 05:54 AM
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Originally posted by babloyi
I mean, I get that Jesus would be in the Old Testemant if he was to be valid for the new one, but does that mean that EVERY single reference to GOD has to be connected to Jesus?

[edit on 19-6-2006 by babloyi]



The Bible is an amazing book. The entire Bible points man to Jesus Christ. Without Jesus we are lost.



posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 06:00 AM
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Some people can find a link between any verse and Jesus, and that is their right as individuals. I follow my own path, and have found very few such connections. The angel of the Lord... well, who was said to be God's most beautiful creation, his greatest angel, the son of the dawn, the bringer of light? You got it, Lucifer. So, it really depends on ones own take on it.
"I have said ye are Gods, all of you are children of the most high.” Psalms, Ch. 82, Verse 6



posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 09:45 AM
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The moral is that one must have unconditional devotion and obedience to god.



Unconditional. No conditions, no ifs ands or buts, no qualifications, no promises of happiness afterwards, no justifications required.

Unconditional obedience.



posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 09:48 AM
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Originally posted by helen670
Well its prophetic as darkelf said.

Then what did it mean to the jews of the time?

I think that thats a major problem with the ideas that there are huge prefigurations of jesus in the old testament, such as this, or such as the verses from genesis that are taking 'us' to mean the trinity. Surely the jews would've said, 'wtf? *scratches yarmulke*", but we see nothing like that.

Its the same, perhaps as taking Enoch and Elijah to be metaphorical stories, not literal ones, and as alluding to the eventual ascension of jesus. I mean, for millenia, the jews wander about, with these confusing things in their holy book? And these things, they're immpossible to interpret then, until after the fact. It makes the torah/bible useless as a source of prophecy or learning then.



angel of the lord

Jesus can not be an angel of the lord. Angels are secondary creations of the lord, jesus is lord. Angels are also fallible and open to corruption and temptation, viz a viz, fallen angels. Indeed, angels produce monstrous offspring if they mix with humans, such a communion with jesus can't, theologically I should think, produce a monstrosity (phsyically, spiritually, psychically, etc).

I can understand that there is prefiguration (even though it brings up problems of its own), but I do not think it is acceptable that Jesus is an Angel.

Also, what of the metatron? Is not the angel of the lord that talks to abraham the metatron? Though, an interesting parrallel, Enoch is said to become the Metatron (the "lesser YWH"), and if Enoch anticipates Jesus, then it makes some sense, as 'Metatron' parrallels Jesus (in some ways, but is not the Word made Flesh).

[edit on 19-6-2006 by Nygdan]



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