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Ancient Lore: Is it to be Ignored?

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posted on May, 14 2006 @ 04:19 PM
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Okay, as far as my beleif goes, oral history should be taken into account just as much as anything else.

Let me give you an example. I grew up around Lakota people. I married a fullblood Lakota woman, can speak some Lakota, attend pow-wow's etc.... so I am well versed in some of the Lakota history. I have been listening to it since I was a child. Just as much as I learned science in school, I learned oral Lakota history from one elder or another. Over the last few hundred years, many Lakota people actually find thier oral history validated by science. Let me give you an example: Lakota people have in their history four ages of elements the people passed thru. All of which were difficult to survive. Ages of fire, ice, water, etc. Nowadays you can barely turn on discovery channel w/o hearing about ice ages, floods, etc. which to many Lakota people the TV is now talking about the same thing they have been maintaining in their history since those ancient days. Science will never agree with the Lakota people about the horse though. Science says the horse arrived here with the European newcomers, but to a Lakota person that is simply not true. They were here long beforehand.

Oral tradition can be hard to listen too especially if it conflicts your current beleifs but that doesn't make it untrue. It also may not make it true but it may make it a different beleif then what you subscribe to.

Talking animals are nothing new. To the indian person, when you lived in balance and harmony with nature, animals would talk to you and teach you songs, dances, and other mysteries of the universe. Nowadays that doesn't happen so much because everyone is out of balance with their environment.

The large birds were known as Thunderbirds, and they lived here long ago. A medicine man told me he saw on TV they found a Thunderbird skeleton in Australia, but I have never heard of any archeological find here in the US though.

Ive known many people who claim to have seen a shapeshifter however. I quess there are good ones and evil ones, and many of the american southwestern tribes are terrorized by evil shapeshifters. Sad but true. I know Navajo youth that will not live on their own reservation but prefer Albuquerque or Phoenix due to fear. I saw it in their eyes, and understood at that point and never questioned them about it again.

Ive read about the Sirius mystery and the Dogon tribe and I beleive what they say about the nommos. I don't care who laughs at me.





[edit on 14-5-2006 by mosca]




posted on May, 14 2006 @ 04:33 PM
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No you did not. Let me review this, I swear there is a glitch in the matrix;

Originally posted by Shane
I have this impression, based upon observations within the Forum, that Ancient Lore which has been past on from Generation to Generation in Oral Histories, is considered to be invalid, and not worthy being discussed in any serious manner.


This isn't a challenge, is it? No matter, I contest that statement, with this counter;



Man is three things;
Who we think we are,
who others think we are,
and who we really are.


Find the source to that, and a new perspective may be yours. Too tough then a clue or two, may be more par for your course.



Three strange things in the world:
loving war more than peace,
loving excess more than sufficiency,
and loving falsehood more than truth


That and the first line of my signature, may give it away.



posted on May, 14 2006 @ 08:21 PM
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Originally posted by mosca
Okay, as far as my beleif goes, oral history should be taken into account just as much as anything else.

Oral tradition can be hard to listen too especially if it conflicts your current beleifs but that doesn't make it untrue. It also may not make it true but it may make it a different beleif then what you subscribe to.

The large birds were known as Thunderbirds, and they lived here long ago. A medicine man told me he saw on TV they found a Thunderbird skeleton in Australia, but I have never heard of any archeological find here in the US though.

Ive read about the Sirius mystery and the Dogon tribe and I beleive what they say about the nommos. I don't care who laughs at me.
[edit on 14-5-2006 by mosca]


I wish to thank you for your OPINION, and an example of how this relates to you and your family's background.

I will be noting what you have indicated to two friend in the Forum to see what they can confirm from the Austrialian Side, and if they have any details to offer in this.

I find this quite intersting, although, I believe there are MANY Variations on the Thunderbird Lore. Being a Night Owl, I have heard many tales, expressed on Coast to Coast, and yes, some truly believe what they saw. Mothman, seems to be a similiar 'being', plus of late, there is FACTUAL EVIDENCE that I had confirmed personally of Flying Dinosaurs now in the U.S by Bill Gibbons.

See the Living Dinosaur Topic and listen to the Link I offer. This guy is going to visit the woman who took the Photo, since it was Young, and will be seeking a Nest.

The Topic thread to listen to is the Dinosaur Hunter #9.

He discusses the Photo, and I must say, Lore to Fact was completed in 30 mintues.

But I must say this, so everyone understand my position fully.

Lore and Ancient Traditions means as much as Theory to me. They have as much validity, based upon the evidence they both offer.

But Theory can be studied and researched for a 100 years or more with no results, while Lore and Ancient Traditions are ignored, or worst, belittled without a similiar extent of investigation.

And again, thank's for you post. It is nice to have your input, and it is always welcomed whether it conflicts with mine or not. We never learn anything if we do not at least listen.

Ciao

Shane



posted on May, 15 2006 @ 10:15 AM
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Originally posted by Shane
The lore part, would need to be considered. What did the Native's learn from these Talking Birds?


Depends on which cultures you're talking about, and whether you're talking about information that was part of tribal lore and oral history or that which was given to individuals by totems. Birds can be teachers or tricksters (Blue Jay in the northeast is a type of "Coyote" character and often brings harm to folk), though usually they play a secondary role in most stories.

As personal totems, however, they could be quite important. Those-who-we-call-shamans had birds as spirit helpers, particularly among the tribes who ended up in Central America (the Diquis)

www.mcguinnessonline.com...



posted on May, 15 2006 @ 10:52 AM
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On the flood issue ... yea, there are alot all around the world. No, they are not all dated to the same period in history. Only those who live around areas prone to flooding seem to have flood myths, but there are some who've migrated away from such areas and still carry along with them their old flood myths. All these different flood myths are seperated by hundreds of years. Some back 3,000 years or more, some as recent as 500 years, etc etc etc. They are not ALL from the same flood. There was never any world wide flood. This flood myth originated with the people of sumer. Actually, they created two flood myths from this one event. Then the early christians borowed it in their noah story. With christianity being forced upon people back then as "truth", people did believe there was a world wide flood. There is NO evidence of such.

Shane,

Re-read Gen 4 for the hundredth time ... Still can't see any mention of satan being cain's father. Did a google search and the only info I can find is how, in some religous circle's opinions satan was the father becaus cain was the first murderer. Nothing in the bible though. Or perhaps you can point out the specific verse in Gen 4?



posted on May, 15 2006 @ 11:02 AM
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Originally posted by mosca
The large birds were known as Thunderbirds, and they lived here long ago. A medicine man told me he saw on TV they found a Thunderbird skeleton in Australia, but I have never heard of any archeological find here in the US though.


Mosca,

I have heard that these "thunderbirds" still exist today. There are fairly modern stories of children being snatched by them, but they weren't able to carry the children very far, basically just dragged them across the backyard.

I've seen film footage of what the witness claimed was one of these birds roosting. The thing certainly was large, but it wasn't possible from the film to distinguish what type of bird it was, could have been a turkey buzzard, or some such.

Anyway, these are mid to late 20th century reports, not some wild tales from pioneers or prospectors.

Regarding floods and ice ages, I must disagree with your view that "science" dismisses these stories. Glacial dams burst right there in Lakota territory during the tail end of the last Ice Age. Science has noted this, and the existence of ice ages, for a long time. Prior to that, "science" would have bought into the Lakota flood lore based on the Biblical flood story.

Harte



posted on May, 15 2006 @ 12:42 PM
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Originally posted by Byrd

As personal totems, however, they could be quite important. Those-who-we-call-shamans had birds as spirit helpers, particularly among the tribes who ended up in Central America (the Diquis)


Nice to hear from you again. Where you busy in the Thesis??

And this is an important aspect as well Byrd

I can not speak directly about knowing of these things, but were there Drug's Involved in Shaman practises, and if yes, was it part of the effect that these 'spiritual guides' became apparent, or was it a meditation state that brought these forward?

Personally, I have little to add in regards to this. I never really have taken the time to understand the Native Populations in my area. I understand fully what we, as invaders, have done for them. I also support them with purchases, and have helped in consulting for Customs Procedures from a business standpoint, but I've have lacked time to review and know of their cultural beliefs.

But I am certain Mosco, from his background, would/could shed light on some this matter.

I am pleased that you are offering considerations as well.

Again Nice to see you around. Missed you the last while.

Ciao

Shane



posted on May, 15 2006 @ 12:44 PM
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Originally posted by Prot0n

Shane,

Re-read Gen 4 for the hundredth time ... Still can't see any mention of satan being cain's father. Did a google search and the only info I can find is how, in some religous circle's opinions satan was the father becaus cain was the first murderer. Nothing in the bible though. Or perhaps you can point out the specific verse in Gen 4?


I'll meet you in the religious section then ProtOn. It will be easy to find.

Ciao

Shane



posted on May, 16 2006 @ 07:27 AM
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Originally posted by Shane

Originally posted by Byrd

As personal totems, however, they could be quite important. Those-who-we-call-shamans had birds as spirit helpers, particularly among the tribes who ended up in Central America (the Diquis)


Nice to hear from you again. Where you busy in the Thesis??

Yes, I'm back for a bit. I was busy with the thesis defense (whine, whimper, quiver), family trip, sorting out end of semester stuff, and (aiee!) getting ready to start the PhD (trying to finalize the disseration subject and getting ready to prepare documents for the IRB), and taking notes on some papers I need to write for publication (how to study large boards like this one is one topic.)


I can not speak directly about knowing of these things, but were there Drug's Involved in Shaman practises, and if yes, was it part of the effect that these 'spiritual guides' became apparent, or was it a meditation state that brought these forward?


There's not a simple answer. It depends on the culture and what was available. These shamanic practices are echoed in religious practices around the world (in Christian traditions in the Phillippines, people will allow themselves to be crucified in the manner of Jesus as part of the ecstatic religious tradition. Vision seekers in many parts of the world use purging/fasting (sometimes the preparation period is up to three years) and then will pierce the skin and drag objects and dance (singing prayers) until they fall into a trance.

It's at this point that the visions come, and they are powerful.

Other cultures use drugs and dancing, dancing, fasting, fasting and dancing, drum beating (with or without fasting) and so on and so forth.

I had a teacher (anthropology) who WAS allowed (after many years) to see these things in several different cultures, and she told us what she felt was appropriate.

Would you like some links on those topics? I didn't fill this response with my usual information dump, but if you like I can give you some reliable sources.


Again Nice to see you around. Missed you the last while.


Thank you! I do miss this place and the people when I have to be away for a bit.

Offtopic, but if you can find it in your local library, I have a fascinating book to recommend to you! It's called THE EDGES OF THE EARTH IN ANCIENT THOUGHT by James Romm, and it goes into depth about how people thought of the Earth and their place in it throughout very early history (focusing on Greeks, mostly, includes references to all sorts of original Greek texts (including Plato) from 800 BC to around 100 AD. Also picked up Trump's book on the prehistory of the Mediterranean to see what light it might shed on who went where and how people develop written forms of their languages, etc, etc.

And, as always, I do check out your links. So MUCH to learn!



posted on May, 19 2006 @ 11:38 PM
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thank you for the compliments.


Originally posted by Harte
Regarding floods and ice ages, I must disagree with your view that "science" dismisses these stories.
Harte


actually if you reread what i was saying I was agreeing with you and indicating science seems to validate a lot of Lakota history (with the exception of the horse) when it comes to ice ages and what not. Discovery channel and Lakota oral history hold similiar accounts of different global catastrophies.

its amazing that some Thunderbirds still may be around. With all of the modern times it seems they evade discovery but still find time to carry off children. I too have heard similiar accounts as you but didnt want to say anything. Bigfoot makes appearances to Lakota reservatons as well. He is well known among lakota people, and to some of the elders he is a sign of coming earth changes.

I actually spoke to an elder from a tribe in Washington state once, and in the 1940's he was walking along and was kidnapped by a giant eagle. He woke up on a mountian top and was in a huge eagles nest. Accroding to him these birds were gigantic, unlike anything seen today, he was like the size of a worm to them. Eventually they feed him like thier eaglettes, and in time was taken to the base of the mountian chain and he began the long walk home. He never said anything to anyone becuz he didn't want anyone disturbing the sacred animals to study or kill them. Just imagine what could be out there even in these modern times!



posted on May, 28 2006 @ 10:31 AM
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There have been remains found of what were 25 foot wingspan Birds of Prey ( raptors), capable of carrying a child or small adult away. they appear to have died out 20,000 years ago, but who knows.

Imagine living in an environment with bird of prey the size of a small house eyeballing you and your family for lunch....it must have been risky getting water, going to bathroom, just being outside in general.



posted on May, 28 2006 @ 08:37 PM
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This is just my personal, uneducated opinion. Nothing shound be instantly disregarded as total crap. You need discernment though. I think most (if not all) legends, stories, whatever you want to call them, were started by something. I don't think people have the capacity to pull something completely out of thin air.



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