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Ancient Lore: Is it to be Ignored?

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posted on May, 11 2006 @ 12:09 PM
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Hello All

I have this impression, based upon observations within the Forum, that Ancient Lore which has been past on from Generation to Generation in Oral Histories, is considered to be invalid, and not worthy being discussed in any serious manner.

I must ask, why this is viewed in this manner, since it seems to me, the more these legends or histories are studied and examined, they result in discouveries which oftern lend credance to them.

As an Case in Point, I offer this.

www.india-atlantis.org...

The discoveries made by the joint SES-NIO expedition appear to confirm that there is substance to the myths. Said Hancock: “I have argued for many years that the world’s flood myths deserve to be taken seriously – a view that most Western academics reject. But here in Mahabalipuram we have proved the myths right and the academics wrong.”


This is inrespects to Findings of what is believed to have been 6 of 7 temples which became engulfed in some flood. (Which Flood, it does not matter).

Read the short review.

Now I completely agree that not all Lore is fact based, and I have seen some which seem absolutely impossible to be true, but does this mean all of these traditions are worthless and not evidence enough to at least have a valid discussion about?

I am wondering why this seems so?

Ciao

Shane




posted on May, 12 2006 @ 04:58 AM
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The problem is that ancient stories etc are generally open to interpretation (just look at all the different theories on Atlantis or the Flood for example). Some are undoubtably pure fiction. Some are 'just so' stories - fictions invented to explain places, names, events etc. Some are attempts to understand the universe. Some may be based on real persons and events.

Many 'alternative' authors go through these stories and pick and choose the once they think are accurate depictions of real events, in order to support their current pet theory.
In some cases, such stories are the entire basis of their pet theory....! And this is where (for me) acceptance of such stories as being true gets a bad name. It's simply not logical to make such an assumption from the outset.

IMO the correct approach is to use such stories as collaborative evidence only when other, more physical evidence exists.

[edit on 12-5-2006 by Essan]



posted on May, 12 2006 @ 08:37 AM
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Originally posted by Essan
..... And this is where (for me) acceptance of such stories as being true gets a bad name. It's simply not logical to make such an assumption from the outset.

IMO the correct approach is to use such stories as collaborative evidence only when other, more physical evidence exists.
[edit on 12-5-2006 by Essan]


OH, Essan

I never said they where true, nor do I really believe they all are true myself. Does this mean I do not believe in them due to the Topic, well in most cases I would say yes, but the matter does still exist that they may just infact be true, but never investigated to confirm it.

But does this mean they do not deserve discussion in a serious manner.

Look, Many fantastic finds have become a reality due to the Original premise of the Oral traditions of Peoples. Of Course, a majority todate have not, but is this due to the fact that they are actually figments of a Peoples imagination, or is it because research to study and discuss these 'THEORIES' have been ignored, due to the Oral Traditions in it?

And I do agree, as in the case of Atlantis, interpetation is open, but for reasons I can not figure out, a handful would rather dismiss it as lunacy, apposed to colaborating to dot I's and cross T's, so that these thoughts about such matters, are stifled in their infancy.

How else is anyone able obtain Evidence, without collective thought about the topic to point you in the direction you should be looking at? All things are speculation at the best, prior to the evidence of those things, and most of those things came from a mind, not a textbook.

I guess ths puzzles me to some extent.

Thanks for the reply Essan

Ciao

Shane



posted on May, 12 2006 @ 09:48 AM
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...Said Hancock: “I have argued for many years that the world’s flood myths deserve to be taken seriously – a view that most Western academics reject. But here in Mahabalipuram we have proved the myths right and the academics wrong.

That's typical Hancock.

The flooded Indian site that was the topic of discussion when Hancock made this broad generalization was mentioned in actual historic documents from only a few hundred years ago, when it was above the water.

Hancock exclaims that "most Western academics reject" the "world's flood myths..." without citing even a single such rejection.

Does Hancock believe that every single flood myth is related to every single other flood myth across the globe?

Where is this crowd of "Western academics" that is apparently dismissing oral history out of hand?

Oral and written histories (when either exist and/or can be applied) are used everyday to aid in making Archaeological and Paleontological finds. Large numbers of fossils have been found in Greece owing almost completely to tales of "dragons" and "Cyclopses" told by the ancient Greeks. Would Hancock have "Western academics" go chasing around the American Southwest trying to find avian shape-shifters?

The idea that "Western academics" simply dismiss oral (and written) tales (what you are calling "lore") is a straw man. Some such "lore" cries out for dismissal, some quite the opposite.

Harte



posted on May, 12 2006 @ 10:52 AM
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Thanks Harte

I guess that sums up my point exaclty my friend.


Nothing more to be added to this topic then.

It took only 1 day to prove my point!!!! Thanks again Harte!

Ciao

Shane



posted on May, 12 2006 @ 12:21 PM
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Originally posted by Harte
Does Hancock believe that every single flood myth is related to every single other flood myth across the globe?


Actually, in the sense that flood myths are archetypal and found in many indigenous cultures, I would say yes, that they are related in that way.
Maybe the question to ask is: Why do so many cultures have flood myths?



posted on May, 12 2006 @ 12:58 PM
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Anyone ignoring oral tradition and history is making themselves ignorant.

On the flip side, anyone accepting it all and ignoring other evidences is making themselves ignorant also.

Oral tradition and history is but one of many peices to the puzzle. Its a special peice, on that requires special handling, usage, and knowledge of its limitations, but its also an integral peice.



posted on May, 12 2006 @ 01:27 PM
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Originally posted by forestlady

Originally posted by Harte
Does Hancock believe that every single flood myth is related to every single other flood myth across the globe?


Actually, in the sense that flood myths are archetypal and found in many indigenous cultures, I would say yes, that they are related in that way.
Maybe the question to ask is: Why do so many cultures have flood myths?


I don't know.... maybe because floods happen pretty much everywhere?

A lot of cultures have other myths in common as well. Starvation, drought, insect infestation. Why is it no one thinks that these are somehow related to some world-wide bug infestation?

Quite a few cultures have myths involving people that can fly. Was it the same people, flying all around the world on wings held together by hardened wax?

Most Native American cultures had myths about talking birds. Was there a now extinct intelligent bird 10,000 years ago on the N. American continent?

Harte



posted on May, 12 2006 @ 07:11 PM
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Originally posted by Harte
Most Native American cultures had myths about talking birds. Was there a now extinct intelligent bird 10,000 years ago on the N. American continent?


Angels?
Fallen Angels?

10000 Years ago fits the Bill.

The lore part, would need to be considered. What did the Native's learn from these Talking Birds?

I know it sounds amusing, but I have seen stranger things. Do you happen to have Links to this for review???

Ciao

Shane



posted on May, 12 2006 @ 11:12 PM
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Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by forestlady

Originally posted by Harte
Does Hancock believe that every single flood myth is related to every single other flood myth across the globe?






Most Native American cultures had myths about talking birds. Was there a now extinct intelligent bird 10,000 years ago on the N. American continent?

Harte


However, birds are the only animals that can imitate human speach. Or were they?
How many kinds of birds are there that can repeat human speach, once they've heard a phrase multiple times?
So a solid fact, today from myth, is that birds can really talk!
The questioned part of the myth is the origin of the intellegence that came out of the bird's mouth.
A suggested answer to that questionable part of the myth can either be that a human trained the bird to speak, the holy sayings, to make it look like it was from the gods or that a god like being really influenced the bird to speak the sayings.

This reminds me of the biblical account when the serpent talked to Eve in the Garden of Eden. The fact is true to this day, that animals don't have the intellegence to speak human matters on their own accord. Makes you wonder if the serpent could speak like birds. Also take note in the Genesis account that the serpent (all of the serpent kind) was altered physically after the rebellion - They lost their limbs. It would be quite interesting if the serpent really had two wings and two legs for limbs, just like birds. A winged serpent sounds just like the description of a dragon, and in this case a talking dragon. The intellegence of the sepent had to come from an intellegent being, other than Adam or Eve.



posted on May, 12 2006 @ 11:59 PM
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Hello Lostinspace

That was a good thought.

Parrots and Myna Birds with a vocabulary have inititated conversation, but whether that is due to some reflex action to acknowledge that someone approached or actual conversation is another thing.

Also, your recollection of the Biblical tale was good,

Were you aware an Ass spoke to a fellow on the road to somewhere in the Middle East. The Ass told him off, as inspired by God, and the story of the guy goes on. I know it was within the Old Testament but I forget exactly who this was. (Any assistance?) Of course the Ass did not fly though.

But that Intelligent Serpent, is much more than that. He is Father of Cain. He is some unique kind of being. And He is known as a Dragon along with a goodly other pile of monikers.

By the way, Is that Mayan?

And Harte

Can you direct some links to those tales. The Dogon, and Aboriginies have some beliefs which speak of Fish People or Swimming People, but in the waters in the Heavens. They also noted they seemed to be able to come to earth and return to the Heavens. I'd like to review them to see what the Native American Indians note in respects to this.

Flying in the Skies?
Swimming in the Heavens?

It's all foreign to some culture that started 14000 years ago, as with the Aboriginies.

Ciao

Shane



posted on May, 13 2006 @ 09:27 AM
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Originally posted by Shane
Parrots and Myna Birds with a vocabulary have inititated conversation, but whether that is due to some reflex action to acknowledge that someone approached or actual conversation is another thing.

Many people are unaware that a crow can also be trained to imitate speech.


Originally posted by ShaneWere you aware an Ass spoke to a fellow on the road to somewhere in the Middle East.

There's a woman that lives down the street from me. Her ass speaks to me every time I see her. No words are exchanged, though.


Originally posted by Shane
And Harte
Can you direct some links to those tales. The Dogon, and Aboriginies have some beliefs which speak of Fish People or Swimming People, but in the waters in the Heavens. They also noted they seemed to be able to come to earth and return to the Heavens. I'd like to review them to see what the Native American Indians note in respects to this.

Here's where I get my info on the subject - a huge site that attempts to document the old stories of the native peoples all over the world, before they are forgotten:
www.indigenouspeople.net...

That site can be somewhat difficult to navigate, so here's a link to their site map:
www.indigenouspeople.net...

And here's a link to their page on the various tribes of indigenous peoples in the Americas:
www.indigenouspeople.net...

That last is probably the most useful page concerning this particular discussion. The page itself covers the Americas, but at the top there is a link to "The World." I haven't poked around much there beyond the Americas. It's not nationalism, it's that there's a lot of people that try to tie some of the Native Americans to Atlantis. This site has helped me check out those claims.

BTW, you want talking animals? Here ya go:
www.indigenouspeople.net...

Scroll down to "Animal Stories."

Harte



posted on May, 13 2006 @ 02:59 PM
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Originally posted by Harte
Many people are unaware that a crow can also be trained to imitate speech.

It's not nationalism, it's that there's a lot of people that try to tie some of the Native Americans to Atlantis. This site has helped me check out those claims.
Harte


Thanks for the links Harte.

Yeah, I was going to mention that about Crows, but from what I understood, you needed to split/slit their tounge, and I wouldn't wish to see some Kid going out with a knife, attempting to verify this in this day and age. He could be shot, or worst, have PETA all over him.

Strange, about Atlantis eh? Even some of those native people believe they came from Atlantis. Even their Tribals names have associations with Atlantis. Silly Natives.

Off to review

Ciao

Shane



posted on May, 13 2006 @ 05:05 PM
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Originally posted by forestlady

Originally posted by Harte
Does Hancock believe that every single flood myth is related to every single other flood myth across the globe?


Actually, in the sense that flood myths are archetypal and found in many indigenous cultures, I would say yes, that they are related in that way.
Maybe the question to ask is: Why do so many cultures have flood myths?


A better question to ask yourself is, why are there no flood myths from Sub-Saharan Africa or Australia?

It has to do with human migration, and a gigantic drought that kickstarted the aridization of the Sahara,

Basicly there were two large original "Waves" of H. sapiens. Starting from their east African home, some went north, others went south.

The northern population got caught in a drought kick-started by the ice age - massive glaciation sucks moisture from the air something fierce. Most of this northern migration died off. The survivers lived in places like the Nile valley and the Sudd, places hat experience some pretty big floods. When it came time to tell tales around the fire about the big die-off of humanity, they simply exchanged "flood" for "drought". Perhaps because a flood is more dramatic, making for a better story, or perhaps floods were just the most destructive things they knew at the time.

These northward humans are the ancestors of most of modern mankind - they extended into Asia and Europe, then into the Americas. As they branched out, tehir flood myths became more varied, reflective of their new homes and traditions.

However, the souhthward migration did not suffer as hard from this drought - certainally subsaharan Africa got a little dier, but it stayed pretty fertile. There was no massive human die-off. These people are the ancestors of not only the sub-saharan African peoples, but aso the Malagasy, several peoples on Indian Ocean Islands, perhaps a vew populations in India, as well as the Australian Aborigines.

This is just my theory, of course. What do I have backing it up?
Well first off, there's the dearth of natic "flood" legends in Sub-Saharan Africa and Australia. Much like how the Dogon people didn't have legends of coming from Sirius before western contact, neither did these cultures have global flood myths.

What about the drought? Well obviously the sahara didn't pop up from overgrazing alone! However it's clear from DNA evidense that the majority of humanity is descended from a very tiny group of people. This trait is shared by some other animals, such as cheetahs and, if I remember correctly, Girraffes. We have very, very little genetic diversity compared to other critters, suggesting that we are th descendants of a "survivor" population. On the other hand, the people of sub-saharan Africa and the Indian islands are quite a bit more diverse - at least in comparison to us "north-walkers"



posted on May, 13 2006 @ 07:28 PM
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Great Post, Fox. Very informative.

I saw something on TV today about this (I think it was the History Channel.) It was called "The Real Eve" or something like that.

Pretty much covered a lot of what you posted.

I once read that there is more genetic variation between a raccoon from Oregon and a raccon from California than between a native of Alaska and an Australian Aborigine.

Harte



posted on May, 13 2006 @ 08:19 PM
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Originally posted by Shane
Hello Lostinspace


Were you aware an Ass spoke to a fellow on the road to somewhere in the Middle East. The Ass told him off, as inspired by God, and the story of the guy goes on. I know it was within the Old Testament but I forget exactly who this was. (Any assistance?) Of course the Ass did not fly though.


Yes, I am familiar with the story. The story can be found at Numbers 22:1-40.
Balaam is sent by Balak, the king of Moab, to curse the Israelites because they are about to enter into the land of Canaan. God does not want Balaam to curse his people so he sends an angel to block the road. Balaam's donkey sees the angel, but Balaam doesn't, so the donkey refuses to continue. Balaam beats the donkey for disobedience. Then God causes the donkey to speak. The donkey speaks of its loyality to his master Balaam in the past, but this moment is different. Balaam says if he had a sword he would have killed the donkey. Then the angel appears to Balaam and says if the he made his way to the station of the angel, he would have been slain. However the donkey saved his life and leared the warning of not going to the Israelites.
Obviously the angel makes the donkey speak (or it could've been God). A donkey can never mimic human speach so Balaam must have heard a projected voice coming from the donkey's face. So the question of the serpent. Was the voice projected just as the donkey? Or did the serpent speak with its own mouth, but motivated by the fallen angel? (Arn't snake tonge's split also, just as you said about the possiblity of crows speaking with a spit tonge?)



Originally posted by Shane
But that Intelligent Serpent, is much more than that. He is Father of Cain. He is some unique kind of being. And He is known as a Dragon along with a goodly other pile of monikers.


I thought Cain's father was Adam. The sepent can be likened to Cain's new father by the fact that he took a rebellious course after he killed his brother Abel.



Originally posted by Shane
By the way, Is that Mayan


This was a bas-relief found by Teobert Maler (1842-1917) somewhere in the jungle of the Yucatan. Teobert took this photo, but nobody seems to be able to find the location of where he took it. The warrior in the bas-relief looks like the ones from Tula. There are four giant statues at Tula called the Atlantean Warriors. Each warrior carries an atlatl and sheaf of arrows, a butterfly breast plate on his chest, and a solar disc on his back.

[edit on 13-5-2006 by lostinspace]

[edit on 13-5-2006 by lostinspace]



posted on May, 13 2006 @ 08:49 PM
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Here is the bas-relief in full:



There are better high resolution versions of it.



posted on May, 13 2006 @ 09:14 PM
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Originally posted by lostinspace
I thought Cain's father was Adam. The sepent can be likened to Cain's new father by the fact that he took a rebellious course after he killed his brother Abel.


This was a bas-relief found by Teobert Maler (1842-1917) somewhere in the jungle of the Yucatan. Teobert took this photo, but nobody seems to be able to find the location of where he took it. The warrior in the bas-relief looks like the ones from Tula. There are four giant statues at Tula called the Atlantean Warriors. Each warrior carries an atlatl and sheaf of arrows, a butterfly breast plate on his chest, and a solar disc on his back.

[edit on 13-5-2006 by lostinspace]

[edit on 13-5-2006 by lostinspace]


Yes, that was the story! Thanks

As for Cain, Carefully review the account, and then review what Eve told God.

The Serpent "beguiled" her. From the Hebrew/Chaldean, Beguile is 'to wholely seduce'.

And it is noted as well, shortly after that occasion in the Garden, Adam knew Eve.

Also note what is said when Cain, the first Born is Delivered. No references to Adam. This only occurs with Abel, Adams Son.

Paul also speaks to this in his teachings.

As a more current theme, this is why only two of the seven churches noted in Revelations past the Grade in the eyes of God. They taught who the Cainite, (the decendants of Cain) was/is. Those who call themselves Jews, but are not.

We could have a good talk on this in either two sections. The Secret Societies, which will just drive them nuts, or the Religion Section, which should have similiar results from the Apple Eating Crowd. (Get it, She took the Serpents Seed.)

And your Artwork.

If, I am not mistaken, then this relief is the one that the Mayan legend suggests is the 'Noah Figure' in the Great Flood, that came to the region from Atlantis. I have seen it a few times, but the 'cutting' to fit, did not do it justice.

And the Second Post makes this clear. The man in a Boat, and the Island/Continent in the background being destroyed.

Ciao

Shane



posted on May, 13 2006 @ 09:26 PM
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Just correcting some misinformation....
Don't split a crows tongue, they talk just fine with a normal tongue.
The crow is a very intelligent animal and it will repeat what it hears after it is "stress free". That means that the crow has to trust you and feel like you mean it no harm.
Once you're hand feeding it and taking it outside untethered, then you can start teaching it to talk.
My Dad had one when I was a kid, it talked all the time. Never anything meaningful, but it was cool anyway.

"Back to our regularly scheduled posts"



posted on May, 13 2006 @ 09:55 PM
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Originally posted by Beer_Guy
Just correcting some misinformation....
Don't split a crows tongue, they talk just fine with a normal tongue.


Now Kid's, don't be splitting/slitting Crow tongues.


Thanks Beer Guy!

Ciao

Shane



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