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Doesn't Anyone Like America?

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posted on May, 14 2006 @ 09:51 AM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
Your arguements only substantiate my feelings.

GO USA!!!!
Land of the Free, Home of the Brave.

I do not expect YOU to love her. Especially those from countries less fortunate than my own.

Yet, I do. I love all that she is, has stood for and stands for.
That some of you do not? What could that possibly matter to me. We are strong, very strong and will just keep on getting stronger.

Home of Charlie Daniels, the Pittsburg Steelers and Apple Pie. The Grand Canyon, Space Shuttle and Breyers Icecream.
HURRAH for the USA


You ask for debate and I tried to explain that negative public perception does not neccesarily equal what you think it does - and you come back with this? I guess that's why you are posting in BELOW top secret and not elsewhere.

There are school children who can debate their corner more succintly and with greater eloquence than you just have. I'm sorry but 'RAH RAH RAH', is just not going to cut it.

As far as your point that the US is strong and getting stronger, you need to check your facts. Perhaps in the past, but polls are waning and so is public opinion on your president. You have some interesting internal problems at the moment making headlines. Add that to the over-extended war and the decline of popularity and international politics. You may feel strong inside, but the country as a whole is stuggling - and no amount of sing-songing or covering your ears is going to detract from the reality of the situation.



Politically speaking, of course, Bush has had a rough year: Iraq, Social Security, Katrina, Miers, Abramoff, Dubai, gas prices and so on. He's now at 31 percent in the polls. But it's not impossible that things might improve, that the economy will continue to chug along, that a long-awaited corner might be turned in Iraq. More damaging in the larger sense, I think, is that many conservatives (according to the polls) and conservative thinkers (according to the daily commentary) seem to be withdrawing their support from the Bush administration.


Link reference

[edit on 14-5-2006 by nikelbee]




posted on May, 14 2006 @ 10:08 AM
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Speaking of gas prices, in Norway it is 8 US dollars per gallon, stop whining



posted on May, 14 2006 @ 11:19 AM
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Well, Norway has socialised medicine and state sponsered higher education. They are really environmentally aware. Their GNP is among the highest in the world. They are also one of the most egalitarian political systems in the world. I would pay 8 bucks a gallon if the US would make those sort of changes.



posted on May, 14 2006 @ 12:32 PM
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Well actually, nikelbee, as far as a debate; I suppose your true colors were revealed when you began by referring to me as a "rah rah rah, school child?"

I feel when entering into a debate with anyone, it is always most beneficial to separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak.

"Ab initio" my retort was directed at rich23, yet it seems to have been more effective in "outing" potential radical hate mongers, than I ever dreamed.

As for posting, I currently have 119 posts as Semperfortis, and 219 as Police_officer339. No not as many as your 957, yet I have only been a member a short time. You will find I have numerous posts on ATS, BTS and PTS. So there really was no need to insert a fallacy after all.
See I am out there fighting for what I believe in. Not spending all day complaining about my country or the country of another. Perhaps, and I condition this as I do not know you, that is the difference between you and I. I have only your words on here and I truly do not care where you are from. If you are proud of where you live, I salute you. If you are not, then I feel sad that you remain there.
You are mistaken on so very many levels, as would be the case when attempting to describe another person as you have me. You "state" that "I would not want to live in any other country, other than my own, whether I like or dislike it." Of course that is incorrect, as any generalization of that kind must be. There are several wonderful countries I would consider home. As I have traveled to them, spent time there and learned to love the people. I do not yell JUMP SHIP, every time something goes wrong in my country. I stay and fight the good fight. What ever you may perceive as "wrong" with MY country, how much could I find wrong with any other country? Name one and I will be glad to research it for you in my time off.

I am however, currently in the business of making MY country a better place to live. So I must leave you at this time. I just left the Church of my choice, now I'm going out to defend the freedom and the laws that keep us free and apart from the tyranny.

Again I must apologize that you took my post as a direct attack at you. Did you not? As you found it necessary to attack my Patriotism. And, by the by, I always check my facts. Strong? WOW
Yes, the United States of America is STRONG beyond belief. Whether you like us or not, matters little. Unemployment is at an all time low, Interest rates are amazing, our military is hands down unequaled on the planet, we have Microsoft, Apple, IBM and Silicon Valley.
We have developed weapons others can only dream of and have withstood the test of time. We shall persevere.
Again, just because it apparently bothers some.

HURRAH for the GOOD OL' USA



posted on May, 14 2006 @ 02:31 PM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
Well actually, nikelbee, as far as a debate; I suppose your true colors were revealed when you began by referring to me as a "rah rah rah, school child?"


From your level of argument, I'd say she was simply estimating your debating skills correctly.


Originally posted by semperfortis
"Ab initio" my retort was directed at rich23, yet it seems to have been more effective in "outing" potential radical hate mongers, than I ever dreamed.


I would never have dreamed that this rambling was directed at me. At no time did I think that my arguments had been engaged with, or evidence offered to refute my suggestions. Oh, Latin. Am I supposed to be impressed? At school I was forced to translate Cicero, Virgil, Tacitus, Ovid and Catullus and I didn't care much for it. Merely throwing around (entirely needlessly, I might add) the odd Latin phrase does nothing to bolster a non-existent argument. It merely adds to the impression that you're trying to make up for a lack of coherent thought with a superficial acquaintance with Latin.


Originally posted by semperfortis
If you are proud of where you live, I salute you. If you are not, then I feel sad that you remain there.


How about if you would quite like where you live if the US didn't poke its nose in and spoil everything? What would you think then? My country has been dragged into this ludicrous Iraq war thanks to sock puppet Blair. And your country did the dragging. Should I be happy? Should I want to come and live in the US? I think not.


Originally posted by semperfortis
And, by the by, I always check my facts.


Sorry, I must have missed something. I didn't see any facts in any of your posts. I doubt that you can actually tell what that slippery entity we call a "fact" is, let alone distinguish them from windbaggery, which is what seems to make up the substance of your posts. If you have any facts, please, let's see 'em.

And merely saying "we have the strongest military on the planet, nyah nyah nyah" does not an argument make. It's just the precursor to the adage about power corrupting, and absolute power having the capability to corrupt absolutely. The US can, with impunity, act like a bully: and guess what? It does. And because it spends so much on its military might, there isn't the money for a proper educational system (which is not what the industrial concerns that run your country want in any event) or healthcare (which might spoil the "dead peasants' insurance" scam beloved of such corporations as Wal-Mart). But if having the biggest strongest military in the world makes you feel like a real man...

If you're so sure that the US is such a great place to live, you might like to read this report from the American University, which suggests that a child born poor in the US has a far lower chance of improving its lot significantly than a child born in, for example Denmark. According to the Reuters report on the conference at which the paper was presented,

He also found the United States had one of the lowest levels of inter-generational mobility in the wealthy world, on a par with Britain but way behind most of Europe.

"Consider a rich and poor family in the United States and a similar pair of families in Denmark, and ask how much of the difference in the parents' incomes would be transmitted, on average, to their grandchildren," Hertz said.

"In the United States this would be 22 percent; in Denmark it would be two percent," he said.


I'd certainly rather live in Denmark.



posted on May, 14 2006 @ 07:54 PM
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Ah the envy again.

"God bless America, the land that I love"

YOU TRANSLATED LATIN!!! WOW..

I studied actualy subjects in University.

Sorry for your luck.


[edit on 5/14/2006 by semperfortis]

[edit on 5/14/2006 by semperfortis]



posted on May, 14 2006 @ 08:37 PM
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You hate Europeans. You hate us because you envy us.


See how stupid that sounds?



posted on May, 14 2006 @ 09:35 PM
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You are right, that did sound pretty stupid.

But only in that context



posted on May, 14 2006 @ 09:45 PM
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Thank you for proving once again what the term "Proud American" means.



posted on May, 14 2006 @ 10:20 PM
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you are very welcome.

Anytime



posted on May, 15 2006 @ 08:46 AM
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I think the main reason people dont like americans is not because they envy them, but because they are so full of themselves and so intent on telling the rest of the world how great they are. When all is considered america is just as flawed as most countries. I particularly dont like americans putting down europe, when in many ways it is superior.



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 04:21 AM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
Ah the envy again.

"God bless America, the land that I love"

YOU TRANSLATED LATIN!!! WOW..

I studied actualy subjects in University.

Sorry for your luck.


[edit on 5/14/2006 by semperfortis]

[edit on 5/14/2006 by semperfortis]


Wow. It actually took two edits for you to come up with that one. Way to go.

Is English your first language? I only ask because after two edits and a "University" education you still can't spell the word "actually". Or put it in the correct place in the sentence.

It's a pity, but no surprise, that you couldn't come up with a coherent argument. And studying "subjects" in University... why. that practically makes you an academic. I too attended, and indeed graduated from, a University, but one in which we were taught to construct arguments and produce evidence to support them, not mindlessly reiterate comforting nostrums. (I learned to spell and construct sentences earlier in my education.) Where is this envy that you point to, exactly? I cannot see it in any of my posts. I'm keen to see you actually try to construct a coherent response to this, but I'm not holding my breath.

One of the myths about the US is that it's a classless society. As if the obvious political dynasties in the US were not a clear enough refutation of this self-serving fairytale, there are plenty who understand what the purpose of the American education system is...

"In our dream, we have limitless resources, and the people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hand. The present educational conventions fade from our minds; and, unhampered by tradition, we work our own good will upon a grateful and responsive folk. We shall not try to make these people or any of their children into philosophers or men of learning or science. We are not to raise up from among them authors, orators, poets, or men of letters. We shall not search for embryo great artists, painters, musicians. Nor will we cherish even the humbler ambition to raise up from among them lawyers, doctors, preachers, politicians, statesmen, of whom we now have ample supply."

Rockefeller Foundation Director of Charity,
Frederick Gates, 1913

And a recent book demonstrates that this clear desire to have a compliant nation of simplefortises continues into the present:

Iserbyt has done what no one else wanted or could do. She has put together the most formidable and practical compilation of documentation describing the well-planned "deliberate dumbing down" of American children by their education system. Anyone who has had any lingering hope that what the educators have been doing is a result of error, accident, or stupidity will be shocked by the way American social engineers have systematically gone about destroying the intellect of millions of American children for the purpose of leading the American people into a socialist world government controlled by behavioral and social scientists.

I'd personally quibble with the use of the word 'socialist', but then I care about how words are used.



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 05:53 AM
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Ah,

The good old American Dream. According to a New York Times Poll, over 80 percent of Americans still believe it is possible to achieve the impossible.


a recent study suggests the American Dream may be more style than substance. According to the study, the lower classes of Canada, Britain, Germany and France have an easier time moving their way up the social ladder than their American counterparts

Class mobility: Myth?

Social class is one factor as you mentioned Rich, but so is ethnicity and economic measure, which combined, determines how difficult it is for a person to achieve the goal of prosperity - despite blind idealism, hard-work, struggle and endless sacrifice.

How can a country as vast and varied as the US still believe in the fairy tale? How can it be practical to have a dream that benefits ALL people at once? Wouldn't that mean chucking capitalism and embracing the *gasp* big dreaded S word? Not only is the Great White Myth an illusion, a fleeting notion, a dream of dreams; but it contradicts itself. Equal prosperity doesn't work in a capitalist society. Someone is going to have to suffer and sweat for others to have their comforts and their big houses.

As far as endless freedom, baby there ain't no such thing. Those few freedoms people are allowed to hold in their hands are not permanent. They are dependent upon other factors that the poor and middle classes aren't privy to and certainly don't control. Ironically, those same freedoms that folks go on and on about are the very same ones they should now be worried about losing.

I will say this about dreams though; they aren't always as they say, cheap or free. All those who fled their individual persecutions to come to Utopia - those that bought 100 percent into the dream and struggled with sweat and tears so that their children would be better off, have ensured that the same (blind) faith in wealth and prosperity now imprisons them. More money than their parents? Possibly. More leisure time with their families and loved ones? Doubtful. Better education/more opportunity? I don't think so. There are far too many graduates running around doing hard labour for peanuts for this to be a resounding YES. Free to pursue one's life without fear of persecution, big government, endless wars, racism and inequality? I leave you to answer that.

At least my parents and grandparents had their silly dream and ideals - our legacy has been a wide-eyed awakening of reality and truth - that and the continuation of the torch.

If you believe in the Dream stop working for a year or two and see what happens. When you are living w/out health care under a viaduct in your cardboard box, you can ask the people you share your bread with if they ever had dreams. It isn't a dream that keeps us going - it is the terror of what would happen if we stopped. The horror of having nothing to show for a life that has all been work, work, consume, consume.

Prosperity, independence, wealth and freedom - that's what people say when asked what they think the American Dream is. How many of those ame people can honestly say they've achieved it?


Now for a moment of levity



Two working class men (one English one American) and their sons were watching a Rolls Royce drive past:

The American father says "Look son, one day you will buy one of those for your old dad!"

The English father says "Look son, we'll take that off that b*stard one day."



[edit on 17-5-2006 by nikelbee]



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 06:02 AM
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Nice post, nikelbee.



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 06:36 AM
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I don't hate America but I do hate their arrogance. For a country who's only been around for 300-400 years, to claim to be better then European country. Sorry, but at least we have history. You have Wal-Mart.



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 03:19 PM
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I like Americans, America as a Country, ,

But I do not like the president or the administration you lot have in office right now :bnghd::bnghd:



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 03:43 PM
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Dang!!!
I got cut by the smartest man in the world and I was not on here to read it for a day or so. I so hate missing that.
Lets see, axualluy, no, actlly, no. Well I guess I'll never get it. Must be that American Edumacation thingy.

"Who is the bigger fool, the fool, or that fool that watches?"
HMMMMM

This post was, I believe about people that Love America. But it is apparent that the "other" side has so little argument they must spend their time pointing out spelling errors. HMMMMM

More to point. If not for the US, you Europeans would be speaking German right about now.
There would be no internet, peanut butter, or most of the technology you use to cut us down. You are so jealous it is ACTUALLY very funny.

So keep on cutting, this is better than one of your films, you know the really slow, hard to watch foreign films.

I'm getting some popcorn and kicking back, so go too it.



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 03:53 PM
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Without Europeans there wouldn't be Americans (as in the white ones who claim America is a country). OMGJEALOUSY!



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 03:57 PM
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I knew that would get some heat going...

But come on, you anti-Americans can do better than that.

I mean one of our 50 states has the 9th largest economy in the world. That's good stuff for you to crack on.



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 04:04 PM
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It didn't get any heat going at all, it just proved once again that you're not able to see the whole picture.




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